DrAlphaeus wrote:You are sounding pretty anti-corporate with your attack on corporate TV and Madison Avenue, jrod!

Occupy 30 Rock?

Occupy Madison Avenue?

Yeah, well, I've spent my life in corporate America, DrAlpha. What did you expect from a jaded corporate cog?

Occupy Rolling Stone?
Occupy NPR?
Occupy CNN?

or how about:
Occupy NCSE?

Markji wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Markji wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

OldFan wrote:"The real criticism is that America's oligarch's are rich." The real problem is the US is suppose to be a democracy. Do you know what Oligarchy means? You're either admitting that a few rich people run the country or you don't know the meaning of the word.

2) Your second statement (in bold) is the main hue and cry of OWS, isn't it? I don't agree or disagree with them, I just would like to hear what they would propose to do about it.

Well jrod, I am curious to hear what you propose. All I have read is you putting down the OWS protesters. Yet you seem to acknowledge that there might be some problems with the U.S. economy which was exacerbated by the financial collapse in 2008.

You really don't want to hear my "proposal". It's not going to do anything for your curiosity.

I'm not putting OWS'ers down, per se, just their lack of a clear purpose. I'm all for peaceful and even non-peaceful revolution, if the conditions call for it, but what's the point?

The OWS'ers point to the power of the rich and the inequality of the distribution of wealth.
Their point is not the redistribution of wealth but the redistribution of the opportunities to gain wealth. BIG difference.

Big SEMANTICS; plus, your OWS'ers have already been quoted as saying they don't want wealth, so what would they care about the opportunities to gain what they're protesting against?

Funny, as I've pointed out several times, nobody was congregating in the streets protesting when the market was booming 8-10 years ago and you could make an insane amount of money doing things like daytrading. Life was good then, apparently. Unfortunately, the same breed of CEO's and rich folk were in place then that were in place when the whole house of cards came tumbling down. Now, all of a sudden, the system and the rich and the government are broken. I just find it a bit disingenuous, but hey, that's my opinion.
People didn't understand the system or the possible impending castasrophy it would cause. The average person felt secure and was constantly reassured by all the gov't leaders and the leaders of Wall Street. People believed the leaders then. Now they have finally woken up and realize they were lied to.

Right, the old ignorance is bliss defense. Very handy. Unfortunately for your average citizen, let the buyer beware was not just uttered for the first time 5 or 6 years ago.
The chickens have come home to roost. My "proposal" isn't so much a fix as it is a diagnosis. We are a society in a classic, historical decline.
Agree. Just like you say the OWS are just protesting but don't give a plan of action, same with your statement. So what should we do?

It's customary to read through someone's post before asking questions.

We are now a country based almost solely on market econmomics, relative morality, situational ethics and a consumer mentality. When these ideas coalesce, the apparent unsatisfactory results for the majority are now in question. So what happens? Do people look to the underlying reasons for the collapse? That all these CEO's and wealthy folk have just bought into the system, and they happen to have rode the system to apparent material success? Stan O'Neal of Merrill rode off into his platinum sunset with a 170 million balloons for engineering and propagating a revenue stream that partially drove stock prices through the roof, underlying stupidity of the system be damned. No, folks like OWS stand and scream and yell and tweet and facebook. And in the background, they light candles for visionaries like Steve Jobs, who by the way, died with an estimated net worth of 8.3 billion, which started in the proverbial garage. Apparently, the system wasn't broken for him.

The problems with the US economy are a direct result of the problems with the US in general. We are a federal republic in the midst of a long, slow decline into oblivion. We are society based on TV morals and the ethics of Madison Avenue. Or do the OWS'ers and anyone else dismiss that fact?

Change the channel. Figure out why we are teaching what we teach in the universities that have bred all these CEO's and rich folk.
I agree - but it really starts in the family. Parents are the ones most responsible for shaping the values of their children. Schools are important, but are perhaps #2.

That's a great argument right up through high school, maybe. After that, do you really think a parent's influence is going to be the number one shaper of someone's values? Do you really think Stan O'Neal learned that it was okay to bilk a system that had at it's core people who were in mortgages over their head at his mother's knee?. My point is that we teach people that ethics are relative all through their college and MBA and doctorate years, and then when they act on that as financial professionals, they get villified by all us normal poor folk. Who are busy at home watching Jersey Shore and Rich Family Reality shows and Prime Time Consumer Makeover...

Figure out why and how wealth should/or ought to be distributed fairly. What are the underlying moral implications of government-sponsored, government-directed redistribution? Why is this country constantly inflating balloons that they think will never pop, and when the balloon inevitably does pop, they don't think, "wow, maybe we should stop depending on the blowing up of balloons", they curse the people who provided the balloon to begin with.
If I am understanding you correctly, this is what the protests are about. They are bringing awareness to the fact that the ballon popped and we need to change the people in charge who are blowing up the balloons. The politicians and the Big money that gets them into power.

If I'm understanding YOU correctly, the current regime got into office by Big money? Really? And here I thought all along Obama was the choice of the people. hmmmmmmmm.
As for your understanding, it's way off. My point is that blowing up balloons is the problem. The system has got to change, right?; not the people blowing up the balloons. Blowing up balloons, whether it's the dotcoms or the CDO's or the next great thing that drives WS bonkers is the problem. You blow up balloons and they are going to pop. Simple fact of nature.

I think that exercise would do more towards establishing a direction than blocking traffic in midtown Manhattan and screaming at rich people. Is it possible to even propose the "small is beautiful" plan, with quiet, calm distribution of assets, when we are so far down this road to megalamania?

But like they said on M*A*S*H all those years ago, "Yeah Frank, let's do anything!"

Maybe you're right. Maybe standing around causing gridlock and trying to get a signal on my Iphone would be better than sitting here on my fat ass typing about it. I doubt it would pay as well, though.

[And the jrod doesn't actually possess an Iphone]

The reason for the protests and their goal is to change the system; level the playing field. People are frustrated and feel helpless because Wall Street has gamed the system for their own profit and screwed the average person. They have all 3 branches of Gov't in their pockets; and the people feel hopeless. They feel there is no way to get the change that is needed.

The people who feel frustrated and helpless are playing the zero sum game. They're only frustrated and helpless because they're not on the fat end of the system right now. 5 years or so ago, when you say they were all basking in ignorance, they obviously were. Or at least they were comfortable enough not to give a **** about the ponzi schemes and the Enrons and all the other shit that was continually happening on WS. But the balloon finally popped big time and now, all of a sudden, they have no savings, they have no 401K, and the big bad money grubbing wall streeters are still rich and living fat. So now, instead of questioning the stupidity of repeatedly living in a system that provides invitably popped balloons, they want to hang the rich because THEY'RE NOT RICH. hmmmmmmm.... Saying things like "change the system" and "level the playing field" are simple ways of saying "I have no clue, but hell I've got nothing better to do so I'll waste some oxygen and blow hot air around. I want to be back on the good side of the system that allows me to stand in traffic and picket pointlessly all while paying $90 a month for my data plan that drives my Iphone5."

Which brings us both all the way back to my original point: The OWS is a protest without a point.

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

+1

that's the single best political cartoon I've ever seen

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:You are sounding pretty anti-corporate with your attack on corporate TV and Madison Avenue, jrod!

Occupy 30 Rock?

Occupy Madison Avenue?

Yeah, well, I've spent my life in corporate America, DrAlpha. What did you expect from a jaded corporate cog?

Occupy Rolling Stone?
Occupy NPR?
Occupy CNN?

or how about:
Occupy NCSE?

Yea! Occupy NCSE! Wait... what? I don't even know what that is...

(Googling...)

"National Center for Science Education: Defending the Teaching of Evolution in Public Schools."

Hmm... so are you saying the teaching of evolution in public schools is a reason why the U.S. is falling apart, jrod? Don't want to jump to conclusions, so flesh this out for me.

We're highly evolved animals, right?
The animal world is not interested in your oughts and your rights to opportunities.
The animal world is all about survival of the fittest, and slow sure steps through random mutations.
Neither of which will get you ethics or values of any kind that "level the playing field" or "change the system", but let's not bother with that right now.
All the above is is taught as fact at the university level. Are you still with me?
All of the above leads to something called proximate ethics.
A proximate ethic will tell you that whatever provides success is successful.
When the financial wizards and Summa Cum Laude MBA's who graduated from these universities and then provide and run the system which has brought us the latest greatest balloon bursting incident, all us common poor folk want to take to the streets and tweet our discontent about the system, and more pointedly, those who profited the most by it.
When the balloon pops, suddenly the Iphone generation wants what's fair.
Evolution, the fact, tells you quite plainly, that there is no "fair". There's only what's equitable to the top of the food chain.

Tell me how your OWS'ers are going to change the system. Or do they even want to "change the system"? Everything I've heard and read is that they just want the system to work for them. Poor consumers of the system who resent those who currently run the system.

Oh goody, the revolution is being televised. Maybe we can all start green laundromats and hydroponic farms and write webapps for the next gen of Iwhatever. And the stock market and the hedge funds and the options markets and all that nasty infrastructure will just dry up and blow away... Hey, maybe we could just all print our own money! Yeah, yeah, that's it! We'll stamp our feet and scream and yell until we are all billionaires, so that way the field is level and the system is changed.

Grow up, realize your own shit smells and get a fucking life.

jrodmc wrote:Not in the public schools, Dr A. At the university level, where evolution is a fact of life. NCSE also oversees a tremendous amount of governance and influence over grants and access to research money at the highest levels of academia.

We're highly evolved animals, right?
The animal world is not interested in your oughts and your rights to opportunities.
The animal world is all about survival of the fittest, and slow sure steps through random mutations.
Neither of which will get you ethics or values of any kind that "level the playing field" or "change the system", but let's not bother with that right now.
All the above is is taught as fact at the university level. Are you still with me?
All of the above leads to something called proximate ethics.
A proximate ethic will tell you that whatever provides success is successful.
When the financial wizards and Summa Cum Laude MBA's who graduated from these universities and then provide and run the system which has brought us the latest greatest balloon bursting incident, all us common poor folk want to take to the streets and tweet our discontent about the system, and more pointedly, those who profited the most by it.
When the balloon pops, suddenly the Iphone generation wants what's fair.
Evolution, the fact, tells you quite plainly, that there is no "fair". There's only what's equitable to the top of the food chain.

Tell me how your OWS'ers are going to change the system. Or do they even want to "change the system"? Everything I've heard and read is that they just want the system to work for them. Poor consumers of the system who resent those who currently run the system.

Oh goody, the revolution is being televised. Maybe we can all start green laundromats and hydroponic farms and write webapps for the next gen of Iwhatever. And the stock market and the hedge funds and the options markets and all that nasty infrastructure will just dry up and blow away... Hey, maybe we could just all print our own money! Yeah, yeah, that's it! We'll stamp our feet and scream and yell until we are all billionaires, so that way the field is level and the system is changed.

Grow up, realize your own shit smells and get a fucking life.

Sorry, you lost me, jrod. If you could provide a link or two for me to read about how the NSCE is doing this at the university level, I'll take a look.

Of course pigeons and rats don't give a rat's ass about my black ass. We are obviously a different kind of animal, one that uses language and can reveal in detail our physical, emotional and mental states past & present to other humans. By default, I believe we are a social animal born with a considerable amount of empathy — why do you wince when you see someone else get kicked in the nuts — because when someone is born with little or none, we call them a psychopath. There is some recent research that say psychopaths make up a disproportionate amount of US corporate CEOs, by the way.

You seem to think Darwinism in your biology class turns into social Darwinism in your social science Master's program and proximate ethics. I don't buy that. But I'm not a scientist, I'm an arts and humanities type of fella. I've never heard that term "proximate ethics". Again, if you have a link, I'll take a look.

jrod before: "I'm not putting OWS'ers down, per se, just their lack of a clear purpose."
jrod now: "Grow up, realize your own **** smells and get a ****ing life."

Hmm. That sure read like a put-down.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Not in the public schools, Dr A. At the university level, where evolution is a fact of life. NCSE also oversees a tremendous amount of governance and influence over grants and access to research money at the highest levels of academia.

We're highly evolved animals, right?
The animal world is not interested in your oughts and your rights to opportunities.
The animal world is all about survival of the fittest, and slow sure steps through random mutations.
Neither of which will get you ethics or values of any kind that "level the playing field" or "change the system", but let's not bother with that right now.
All the above is is taught as fact at the university level. Are you still with me?
All of the above leads to something called proximate ethics.
A proximate ethic will tell you that whatever provides success is successful.
When the financial wizards and Summa Cum Laude MBA's who graduated from these universities and then provide and run the system which has brought us the latest greatest balloon bursting incident, all us common poor folk want to take to the streets and tweet our discontent about the system, and more pointedly, those who profited the most by it.
When the balloon pops, suddenly the Iphone generation wants what's fair.
Evolution, the fact, tells you quite plainly, that there is no "fair". There's only what's equitable to the top of the food chain.

Tell me how your OWS'ers are going to change the system. Or do they even want to "change the system"? Everything I've heard and read is that they just want the system to work for them. Poor consumers of the system who resent those who currently run the system.

Oh goody, the revolution is being televised. Maybe we can all start green laundromats and hydroponic farms and write webapps for the next gen of Iwhatever. And the stock market and the hedge funds and the options markets and all that nasty infrastructure will just dry up and blow away... Hey, maybe we could just all print our own money! Yeah, yeah, that's it! We'll stamp our feet and scream and yell until we are all billionaires, so that way the field is level and the system is changed.

Grow up, realize your own shit smells and get a fucking life.

Sorry, you lost me, jrod. If you could provide a link or two for me to read about how the NSCE is doing this at the university level, I'll take a look.

http://ncse.com/taking-action/list-steves
http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/workshop-teaching-evolution-at-university-colorado
http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/c-martin-gaskell-v-university-kentucky
http://ncse.com/news/2005/10/university-idaho-affirms-evolution-00611
http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/responding-to-id-freshman-college-class

Oh and by the way, screw the public schools, we'll get involved in your gaddamn national park system!

http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/renewed-concern-creationism-at-grand-canyon-national-park

They're not just in the public schools, or academia itself:

Consultations: NCSE provides expert witness referrals and/or consultation to legal organizations in litigating creation/evolution cases
Speakers' bureau: NCSE sends speakers to scientific, educational, legal and civil liberties organizations, informing them of the issues and recent events
News and information sharing: Examples – A speaker for a civil liberties organization who had been invited to take part in a radio talk show reviewed NCSE-provided materials to prepare for questions concerning creationism; organizations preparing reports on the state of education, and controversies in education, contact NCSE for information about science education and the creation/evolution controversy
Coordinated action: Other organizations call NCSE for assistance with local problems. For example, when the Vilas Park Zoo, a public zoo in Wisconsin, set up a creationist display, an organization there contacted NCSE, and our state representative and local members helped zoo personnel prepare...

DrAlphaeus wrote:
Of course pigeons and rats don't give a rat's ass about my black ass. We are obviously a different kind of animal, one that uses language and can reveal in detail our physical, emotional and mental states past & present to other humans. By default, I believe we are a social animal born with a considerable amount of empathy — why do you wince when you see someone else get kicked in the nuts — because when someone is born with little or none, we call them a psychopath. There is some recent research that say psychopaths make up a disproportionate amount of US corporate CEOs, by the way.

DrAlphaeus wrote:
You seem to think Darwinism in your biology class turns into social Darwinism in your social science Master's program and proximate ethics. I don't buy that. But I'm not a scientist, I'm an arts and humanities type of fella. I've never heard that term "proximate ethics". Again, if you have a link, I'll take a look.

I don't seem to think this is the case; you can see by the links above that it's not just middle school biology class we're talking about. And in case you didn't notice, you make my point for me by your pigeons and rats comments. Being a different kind of animal doesn't make you anything more than a conglomeration of different amino acids. Empathy comes by default? Really? Is there a default empathy gene? Are they teaching the value of equitable distribution of wealth and the inherent worth of human life in your MBA programs and advanced finance courses?

On proximate ethics, read anything by Wil Provine, of Cornell. I believe he coined the term.

DrAlphaeus wrote:
jrod before: "I'm not putting OWS'ers down, per se, just their lack of a clear purpose."
jrod now: "Grow up, realize your own **** smells and get a ****ing life."

Hmm. That sure read like a put-down.

I'm getting grumpier the longer this stupid lockout continues, and the more I have to look at stupid OWS cartoons.

Moonangie wrote:Coverage of the late Harvard professor John Rawls in the NYT re: the OWS dilemma. What a great newspaper NYTIMES.COM has become. And they finally figured out how to turn a profit online ($15mil in qtr just ended).

From the NYT blogs...

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/rawls-on-wall-street/?hp

If you want some relatively heavier reading on the idea of "justice as fairness", you owe it to yourself to read "A Theory Of Justice" before you die. Put it on your bucket list.

jrodmc wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Not in the public schools, Dr A. At the university level, where evolution is a fact of life. NCSE also oversees a tremendous amount of governance and influence over grants and access to research money at the highest levels of academia.

We're highly evolved animals, right?
The animal world is not interested in your oughts and your rights to opportunities.
The animal world is all about survival of the fittest, and slow sure steps through random mutations.
Neither of which will get you ethics or values of any kind that "level the playing field" or "change the system", but let's not bother with that right now.
All the above is is taught as fact at the university level. Are you still with me?
All of the above leads to something called proximate ethics.
A proximate ethic will tell you that whatever provides success is successful.
When the financial wizards and Summa Cum Laude MBA's who graduated from these universities and then provide and run the system which has brought us the latest greatest balloon bursting incident, all us common poor folk want to take to the streets and tweet our discontent about the system, and more pointedly, those who profited the most by it.
When the balloon pops, suddenly the Iphone generation wants what's fair.
Evolution, the fact, tells you quite plainly, that there is no "fair". There's only what's equitable to the top of the food chain.

Tell me how your OWS'ers are going to change the system. Or do they even want to "change the system"? Everything I've heard and read is that they just want the system to work for them. Poor consumers of the system who resent those who currently run the system.

Oh goody, the revolution is being televised. Maybe we can all start green laundromats and hydroponic farms and write webapps for the next gen of Iwhatever. And the stock market and the hedge funds and the options markets and all that nasty infrastructure will just dry up and blow away... Hey, maybe we could just all print our own money! Yeah, yeah, that's it! We'll stamp our feet and scream and yell until we are all billionaires, so that way the field is level and the system is changed.

Grow up, realize your own shit smells and get a fucking life.

Sorry, you lost me, jrod. If you could provide a link or two for me to read about how the NSCE is doing this at the university level, I'll take a look.

These were all right on the NCSE site:

http://ncse.com/taking-action/list-steves
http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/workshop-teaching-evolution-at-university-colorado
http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/c-martin-gaskell-v-university-kentucky
http://ncse.com/news/2005/10/university-idaho-affirms-evolution-00611
http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/responding-to-id-freshman-college-class

Oh and by the way, screw the public schools, we'll get involved in your gaddamn national park system!

http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/renewed-concern-creationism-at-grand-canyon-national-park

They're not just in the public schools, or academia itself:

Consultations: NCSE provides expert witness referrals and/or consultation to legal organizations in litigating creation/evolution cases
Speakers' bureau: NCSE sends speakers to scientific, educational, legal and civil liberties organizations, informing them of the issues and recent events
News and information sharing: Examples – A speaker for a civil liberties organization who had been invited to take part in a radio talk show reviewed NCSE-provided materials to prepare for questions concerning creationism; organizations preparing reports on the state of education, and controversies in education, contact NCSE for information about science education and the creation/evolution controversy
Coordinated action: Other organizations call NCSE for assistance with local problems. For example, when the Vilas Park Zoo, a public zoo in Wisconsin, set up a creationist display, an organization there contacted NCSE, and our state representative and local members helped zoo personnel prepare...

DrAlphaeus wrote:
Of course pigeons and rats don't give a rat's ass about my black ass. We are obviously a different kind of animal, one that uses language and can reveal in detail our physical, emotional and mental states past & present to other humans. By default, I believe we are a social animal born with a considerable amount of empathy — why do you wince when you see someone else get kicked in the nuts — because when someone is born with little or none, we call them a psychopath. There is some recent research that say psychopaths make up a disproportionate amount of US corporate CEOs, by the way.

Not that pigeons and rats have anything to do with humans being animals, but hey if talking about rats and pigeons floats your boat, whatever.

DrAlphaeus wrote:
You seem to think Darwinism in your biology class turns into social Darwinism in your social science Master's program and proximate ethics. I don't buy that. But I'm not a scientist, I'm an arts and humanities type of fella. I've never heard that term "proximate ethics". Again, if you have a link, I'll take a look.

I don't seem to think this is the case; you can see by the links above that it's not just middle school biology class we're talking about. And in case you didn't notice, you make my point for me by your pigeons and rats comments. Being a different kind of animal doesn't make you anything more than a conglomeration of different amino acids. Empathy comes by default? Really? Is there a default empathy gene? Are they teaching the value of equitable distribution of wealth and the inherent worth of human life in your MBA programs and advanced finance courses?

On proximate ethics, read anything by Wil Provine, of Cornell. I believe he coined the term.

DrAlphaeus wrote:
jrod before: "I'm not putting OWS'ers down, per se, just their lack of a clear purpose."
jrod now: "Grow up, realize your own **** smells and get a ****ing life."

Hmm. That sure read like a put-down.

I'm getting grumpier the longer this stupid lockout continues, and the more I have to look at stupid OWS cartoons.

I've looked at some of those links. Not seeing the NSCE-->MBA/Finance connection you made, still seems like we are dealing with scientist-on-scientist crime in those cases you list, but I just skimmed. "Are they teaching the value of equitable distribution of wealth and the inherent worth of human life in your MBA programs and advanced finance courses?" I was an art major, brother. Why are you talking about "my" MBA programs?

If humans aren't a type of animal —- albeit the only animal that can come up with and articulate the concept of "animal" -- then I wonder what you think we are? (I mean who knows, maybe one day we find out those whale songs are the aquatic version of sports talk radio...)

I'm just going by the dictionary. We are in the "Animal Kingdom" according to science. Do you think they literally mean animals exist in some sort of great big monarchy? It's a metaphor for purposes of classification. We aren't animals according to law for instance: "Animal Control" officers leave the human issues to the regular police officers. And I live in NYC, so pigeons, rats, dogs, probably make up 80% of the non-human animals I see day-to-day. But dogs complicate my argument about "empathy" since they seem to really get aspects of human emotion. But yea, "whatever."

If you think evolution as a scientific concept is dangerous and leads to a breakdown of our society's moral & ethical framework, what you think the ultimate solution to that is? Creationism & intelligent design taught instead? If so, which creation myth gets the top seed?

Again, I'm no scientist, so I'm not going to point to any "empathy" gene. If you wanted some links I suppose you would ask for it. But I suspect you don't, unless my snark detector needs re-calibration. And why would you trust an art major on science questions anyway?

Thanks for the Will Provine reference.

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

+1

that's the single best political cartoon I've ever seen

kinda of like the tea party

yeah, just more hip and to the left. Can't wait for the first OWS candidate running on a platform of "Tax the Rich, End the War..drum drum drum...tweet tweet tweet...drum drum drum..."