BigSm00th wrote:until MDA begins to emphasize defense and the knicks become not just a better but a top defensive team, the knicks will not be in the championship conversation.

BigSmooth, do you think Thibs could make JJ, Amare, Melo, Fields, Billups a top defensive team?

Mishandling of AR? Just becuase the guy is putting up a few numbers for the Wolves doesn't mean much. If the kid is slacking in practice why reward him with playing time? --> LOL i'm willing to cease the randolph debate since its clear a few people think one thing and a few people think another. re-framing your position, a 21 yr old 7 footer who is moody should be encouraged and have his confidence built. instead he was ignored by the coaches and sent to the bench. we bemoan having no size or shotblockers (you say later "we are soft in the middle") and yet come up with excuses as to why a 21 yo 7 footer who blocked 1.5 shots per game last year can't play, like an alleged lack of effort at practice. (have you been to knicks practice and seen AR screwing around?) when AR's been given minutes (see march of this year, 09-10 season) his averages are something like 20 mpg, 13 points, 6 rebounds, over a block, over a steal per game. he's 7 feet tall. is turiaf really better than him? mozgov even? shawne williams? no. turiaf and moz played over him b/c we needed real C's and AR is more of a PF, and williams and walker played over him b/c they can shoot and MDA values offense over defense.

MDA doesn'r care about defense yet he talks about it all the time? Players have career games against us becuase we're soft in the the middle. The Knicks will improve on D when then get fill the holes that they have on D. All of MDA's Suns weren't defensive juggernauts but they were in the middle of the pack each year. I loved JVG when he was here but when he coached the Knicks couldn't score even though we had one of the best defensive teams in the league. What wins Championships is a mix of offense and defense. The guy did take a team to the Western Conference Finals.

LOL he talks about it all the time? and yet he continues to play one-dimensional shooters who can't play D. i don't see those other players and teams torching other teams that are soft in the middle but have some semblance of a team defense strategy.

your JVG point is basically the exact point i made in an earlier post -- exactly, offense and defense wins championships. we have the offense (STAT & MELO), we don't need a coach who's main "value-add" is his innovative offensive strategy and who shuns playing good defenders. we need a coach who emphasizes D (like JVG!), as our offense will be competent regardless of who is coaching because we have two great scorers.

Cavs last year with a defensive minded coach had the best regular season record and didn't get it done.

Bulls have the MVP who makes those around him better, but how much?

The over all crowd hating on MDA seems to imply they know better and that MDA is so pig headed he cares more about being "RIGHT" than winning.

Are the lakers a great defensive team or a good offensive team that plays good d when they really need to?

CashMoney wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:Corey Brewer is a bad example. The guy is a SF and who in the heck would he have played over anyway? --> he would've played over walker or williams. he's a far better defender than both of those guys. when we are matched up against the heat in 2 weeks you are gonna be wishing we had this guy playing tough D on wade instead of watching walker run to and stand in the corner as melo drives into 3 guys.

Mishandling of AR? Just becuase the guy is putting up a few numbers for the Wolves doesn't mean much. If the kid is slacking in practice why reward him with playing time? --> LOL i'm willing to cease the randolph debate since its clear a few people think one thing and a few people think another. re-framing your position, a 21 yr old 7 footer who is moody should be encouraged and have his confidence built. instead he was ignored by the coaches and sent to the bench. we bemoan having no size or shotblockers (you say later "we are soft in the middle") and yet come up with excuses as to why a 21 yo 7 footer who blocked 1.5 shots per game last year can't play, like an alleged lack of effort at practice. (have you been to knicks practice and seen AR screwing around?) when AR's been given minutes (see march of this year, 09-10 season) his averages are something like 20 mpg, 13 points, 6 rebounds, over a block, over a steal per game. he's 7 feet tall. is turiaf really better than him? mozgov even? shawne williams? no. turiaf and moz played over him b/c we needed real C's and AR is more of a PF, and williams and walker played over him b/c they can shoot and MDA values offense over defense.

MDA doesn'r care about defense yet he talks about it all the time? Players have career games against us becuase we're soft in the the middle. The Knicks will improve on D when then get fill the holes that they have on D. All of MDA's Suns weren't defensive juggernauts but they were in the middle of the pack each year. I loved JVG when he was here but when he coached the Knicks couldn't score even though we had one of the best defensive teams in the league. What wins Championships is a mix of offense and defense. The guy did take a team to the Western Conference Finals.

LOL he talks about it all the time? and yet he continues to play one-dimensional shooters who can't play D. i don't see those other players and teams torching other teams that are soft in the middle but have some semblance of a team defense strategy.

your JVG point is basically the exact point i made in an earlier post -- exactly, offense and defense wins championships. we have the offense (STAT & MELO), we don't need a coach who's main "value-add" is his innovative offensive strategy and who shuns playing good defenders. we need a coach who emphasizes D (like JVG!), as our offense will be competent regardless of who is coaching because we have two great scorers.

Playing Brewer over Walker or Williams? Great so when Melo is on the bench STAT would be the only guy who could score who would be on the floor. When both Melo and STAT are on the bench Brewer would be great to run out on the floor.

You do know that AR was playing at the start of the year right? It's funny that few even talked about AR until they traded him, then it was look at the numbers he's putting up in Minny. Players who make it have self confidence and if he felt like he should have been playing he should have played hard in practice. He's supposed to be a professional. I don't attend practices but it's known from comments made by MDA and his coaching staff that he was slacking. Moz started at the beginning of the year, didn't play and then started playing again. I wonder why that is considering MDA doesn't work with his players. Oh yeah and Shawn Williams didn't paly at all to start the year.

I'd love for MDA to play guys that are good on D. Feel free to name the guys who fit that criteria on the Knicks currently. MDA doesn't play guys who play D because he didn't play Brewer when he was here?

a) Toney Douglas is in the second unit and he can score from PG
b) you can play Brewer WITH either Walker OR Williams and have some balance on the floor with somebody who can D up on the wing.

BigSm00th wrote:RE: the knicks, yes, definitely the knicks would be a top 10 defensive team with thibodeau.

yeah, that's a laugh.

martin wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

martin wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:until MDA begins to emphasize defense and the knicks become not just a better but a top defensive team, the knicks will not be in the championship conversation.

BigSmooth, do you think Thibs could make JJ, Amare, Melo, Fields, Billups a top defensive team?

i think Thibs would have played corey brewer over bill walker. i think he would have played AR b/c of his shotblocking and found ways to fit him in on offense. someone brought this up earlier -- the bulls start keith bogans, hardly a defensive stalwart. but he plays because he plays hard on D, and starts over better offensive players. i don't think bogans would start on the knicks!

do you watch bulls games? do you see thibs barking out instructions to the D? Do you see any knicks doing that, like MDA or his "defensive assistant" brother dan dantoni?

martin, do you really think D'Antoni is a better coach than thibodeau?

RE: the knicks, yes, definitely the knicks would be a top 10 defensive team with thibodeau. WHEREVER that guy's been they've played good D. would they be top 10 with MDA"s rotation? LOL no, but that's one of my points, that MDA plays guys that are one-dimensional shooters and then complains about having no good defenders. you can play guys who are one-dimensional defenders too, MDA!

Here's what I know: MDA has made it to WCFs, twice, in a time that had the Western conference was as solid as it has ever been; tail end of LALakers and dominant period of Tim Duncan. I would equate what those PHO teams were knocking against the same as what the Knicks were up against when Jordan was around: the Knicks and the Suns just didn't have the best player in the house and Knicks only made it when Jordan played baseball, so perhaps we can say that MDA was only as good as Riley was when he was a Knicks coach. One could also extrapolate and say that Riley's Knicks team was as good defensively as MDA's was offensively and vice versus - Riley's teams sucked at O and MDA's sucked at D.

So far MDA has not demonstrated to me that he can build a team that brings defense, but I don't also sense that he has had the players to work with. Would the vaunted San Antonio teams be as good if they had Amare instead of Tim Duncan? Would MDA's team defense only be ranked 15th if they had TD instead of Amare? How good would Boston be if Amare and KG switched teams?

As an extreme example, if someone gives you eggs and toast and asks you to make pancakes, does that make you a bad pancake maker even if you serve some very good breakfast of easy over? Right now, this is the territory I am in.

I am still in wait and see mode with MDA and defense. For me, he gets until mid-season 2011-12 with the caveat that the Knicks still need bigs until I judge; these past 2+ years have been turnover after turnover.

Everyone keeps saying that MDA is a bad defensive coach, which is fine but also pretty vapid argument. Name me the starting 5 players that were part of any of his rosters that you think Thibs could make into a top 10 defensive team.... don;t think that happens.

I keep looking at those Phoenix teams and see Amare and no one at Center. How is that conducive of any type of interior defense? I sense that MDA made a choice and he chose to maximize what areas he could with Amare, Nash, Bell, Marion: offense. Probably maximized his output. Good formula? Perhaps. Championship formula? Perhaps not. By why couldn't his GM's get him a backup PG or some semblance of a center over a 6-year period?

I also find it bland when someone quotes Amare saying that MDA never taught him defense. We all see Amare play and know that he has zero awareness of his man and the ball, zero affinity for blocking out, zero clue as to how to take a charge, always goes for a head fakes. I mean, come on, right? What Amare said was bluster to cover up the fact that HE has never decided he wanted to pay attention to playing defense.

"But Miami, Miami has good defense and no C and a ***** for a PF". Tired of that line too. They have 2 of the best wings in the EVER in the game and parts that move so quick. Sure they don't have beef for C/PF, but those are the games they do lose (when you pound them inside), and their quick wings make up the difference in ball pressure, etc.

Good post. Sums up how I feel to a T. And to add to that pancake analogy, bringing in a hard nosed defensive type to coach this team may backfire even worse. I am all for defense, but his team doesn't have elite defenders, and the argument that some people make that we can just magically get a bunchof spare parts to play lockdown defense night in night out by hiring whatevr coach happens to be the flavor of the week is jsut laughable.

OasisBU wrote:Man I really don't get this board.

This team has suffered through mediocrity and awfulness since 2004 (I think its really since post 99 as 2004 was an aberration).

Now we are back in the playoffs after SEVERAL roster overhauls including some mid season trades - and people are calling for MDA's head?

I'd like to see how your bosses rate your job performance.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, there are some valid issues against MDA, he is no defensive stalwart, timeouts are confusing at times etc. I guess my position is and has always been I would rather have him than the flavor of the week and I stand by that. I do think he deserves a shot at this team next year. There are some people on this board that make goood nuanced and valid poins against MDA, and there are those that just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

OasisBU wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:Man I really don't get this board.

This team has suffered through mediocrity and awfulness since 2004 (I think its really since post 99 as 2004 was an aberration).

Now we are back in the playoffs after SEVERAL roster overhauls including some mid season trades - and people are calling for MDA's head?

I'd like to see how your bosses rate your job performance.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, there are some valid issues against MDA, he is no defensive stalwart, timeouts are confusing at times etc. I guess my position is and has always been I would rather have him than the flavor of the week and I stand by that. I do think he deserves a shot at this team next year. There are some people on this board that make goood nuanced and valid poins against MDA, and there are those that just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Hey nobody is perfect - Van Gundy had plenty of flaws too and I didn't see him winning any championships over in Houston. No coach is perfect, MDA is no different but he is far from a bad coach. The way some people complain about him you would think we only won 12 games this season. He had a good run with our young core, brought along a few who became nice players, and now has his team rolling again after a complete roster overhaul.

Are there growing pains? Yes
Could MDA do some things better? Sure
Does he deserve to be fired? If MDA gets fired after doing this kind of job with the adversity he has faced, then I don't see why any top tier coach would want to join this organization.

I predict if we win a playoff series (which is a long shot) then you will see a lot of those calling for his head change their tune.

Yup. Overall I think he has kept his side of the deal and tried to field a decent product even when he has never had the same starters for more than 6-7 months. I think the guy deserves a lot more love than he gets because in his way he has been a complete professional, has not gone to the press and whined and bitched about the complete joke that we called the Knicks the last two years and handled the media pressure with a lot of class. Yes his play calling is questionable but I don't get the hate.

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:Man I really don't get this board.

This team has suffered through mediocrity and awfulness since 2004 (I think its really since post 99 as 2004 was an aberration).

Now we are back in the playoffs after SEVERAL roster overhauls including some mid season trades - and people are calling for MDA's head?

I'd like to see how your bosses rate your job performance.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, there are some valid issues against MDA, he is no defensive stalwart, timeouts are confusing at times etc. I guess my position is and has always been I would rather have him than the flavor of the week and I stand by that. I do think he deserves a shot at this team next year. There are some people on this board that make goood nuanced and valid poins against MDA, and there are those that just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Hey nobody is perfect - Van Gundy had plenty of flaws too and I didn't see him winning any championships over in Houston. No coach is perfect, MDA is no different but he is far from a bad coach. The way some people complain about him you would think we only won 12 games this season. He had a good run with our young core, brought along a few who became nice players, and now has his team rolling again after a complete roster overhaul.

Are there growing pains? Yes
Could MDA do some things better? Sure
Does he deserve to be fired? If MDA gets fired after doing this kind of job with the adversity he has faced, then I don't see why any top tier coach would want to join this organization.

I predict if we win a playoff series (which is a long shot) then you will see a lot of those calling for his head change their tune.

Yup. Overall I think he has kept his side of the deal and tried to field a decent product even when he has never had the same starters for more than 6-7 months. I think the guy deserves a lot more love than he gets because in his way he has been a complete professional, has not gone to the press and whined and bitched about the complete joke that we called the Knicks the last two years and handled the media pressure with a lot of class. Yes his play calling is questionable but I don't get the hate.

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:Man I really don't get this board.

This team has suffered through mediocrity and awfulness since 2004 (I think its really since post 99 as 2004 was an aberration).

Now we are back in the playoffs after SEVERAL roster overhauls including some mid season trades - and people are calling for MDA's head?

I'd like to see how your bosses rate your job performance.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, there are some valid issues against MDA, he is no defensive stalwart, timeouts are confusing at times etc. I guess my position is and has always been I would rather have him than the flavor of the week and I stand by that. I do think he deserves a shot at this team next year. There are some people on this board that make goood nuanced and valid poins against MDA, and there are those that just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Hey nobody is perfect - Van Gundy had plenty of flaws too and I didn't see him winning any championships over in Houston. No coach is perfect, MDA is no different but he is far from a bad coach. The way some people complain about him you would think we only won 12 games this season. He had a good run with our young core, brought along a few who became nice players, and now has his team rolling again after a complete roster overhaul.

Are there growing pains? Yes
Could MDA do some things better? Sure
Does he deserve to be fired? If MDA gets fired after doing this kind of job with the adversity he has faced, then I don't see why any top tier coach would want to join this organization.

I predict if we win a playoff series (which is a long shot) then you will see a lot of those calling for his head change their tune.

Yup. Overall I think he has kept his side of the deal and tried to field a decent product even when he has never had the same starters for more than 6-7 months. I think the guy deserves a lot more love than he gets because in his way he has been a complete professional, has not gone to the press and whined and bitched about the complete joke that we called the Knicks the last two years and handled the media pressure with a lot of class. Yes his play calling is questionable but I don't get the hate.

Just to clarify, the Crawford and Randolph trades were made in November of 08. From that time on until the trade deadline in 2/10 D'Antoni essentially had the same roster. The new guys that Walsh added, Douglas, Darko, and Hill never played so there was really minimal turnover to his core group for almost 14 months.

splitting hairs - to argue about whether details that are not important are exactly correct

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

OasisBU wrote:Man I really don't get this board.

This team has suffered through mediocrity and awfulness since 2004 (I think its really since post 99 as 2004 was an aberration).

Now we are back in the playoffs after SEVERAL roster overhauls including some mid season trades - and people are calling for MDA's head?

I'd like to see how your bosses rate your job performance.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, there are some valid issues against MDA, he is no defensive stalwart, timeouts are confusing at times etc. I guess my position is and has always been I would rather have him than the flavor of the week and I stand by that. I do think he deserves a shot at this team next year. There are some people on this board that make goood nuanced and valid poins against MDA, and there are those that just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Hey nobody is perfect - Van Gundy had plenty of flaws too and I didn't see him winning any championships over in Houston. No coach is perfect, MDA is no different but he is far from a bad coach. The way some people complain about him you would think we only won 12 games this season. He had a good run with our young core, brought along a few who became nice players, and now has his team rolling again after a complete roster overhaul.

Are there growing pains? Yes
Could MDA do some things better? Sure
Does he deserve to be fired? If MDA gets fired after doing this kind of job with the adversity he has faced, then I don't see why any top tier coach would want to join this organization.

I predict if we win a playoff series (which is a long shot) then you will see a lot of those calling for his head change their tune.

Yup. Overall I think he has kept his side of the deal and tried to field a decent product even when he has never had the same starters for more than 6-7 months. I think the guy deserves a lot more love than he gets because in his way he has been a complete professional, has not gone to the press and whined and bitched about the complete joke that we called the Knicks the last two years and handled the media pressure with a lot of class. Yes his play calling is questionable but I don't get the hate.

Just to clarify, the Crawford and Randolph trades were made in November of 08. From that time on until the trade deadline in 2/10 D'Antoni essentially had the same roster. The new guys that Walsh added, Douglas, Darko, and Hill never played so there was really minimal turnover to his core group for almost 14 months.

Big Whoop! You're leaving out the actual details of that team and what the make up was. The fact that we had a bunch of guys playing for their next contract. Guys that didn't want to buy in and were looking out for their own best interests. No coach can really excel with that kind of roster. Ultimately that's why most of them were gone.