Juice wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:The problem with D'antoni, or at least my fear of him, isn't just that he doesn't get great defensive effort out of poor defensive players, it's that he doesn't demand that strong defensive players be acquired.

I'll go back to an example used before. I'm not convinced he'd want a Perkins-type big boned, center. I suspect he'd prefer some willowy guy with fast feet who can presumably switch quickly, even if he can't protect the paint or keep someone from backing him down.

Thus we could forever be in the cycle of lamenting how we can't expect great defense from our given roster when he is at cause for the roster we are given.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Did the Knicks not try to get Wade and Lebron? Aside from those guys coming, who in particular were they going to get that would come in and lead the team playing great D? It seems to me that most of the time the top players in the league that are most sought after are the guys that score the most. Guys get drafted in the 1st rd. mostly for their offensive ability. How many guys are known more for their defense than anything else that we could've gotten? MOre importantly when has Mike turned down getting someone that can help us defensively? It appears to me that we went and added Jared only for defense, correct? Oh and Mike is the one that really wanted to promote Timo to starting C. He only went away from him when it was clear the kid needed more time. He clearly liked the kid a lot.

I'm suggesting that the system puts a premium on speed, which dictates a certain type of defender, the type that is rarely formidable on the interior. And when you don't protect the paint you're not only vulnerable to penetration, you're less likely to get defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds perhaps - especially long rebounds from all the missed threes - but less so the crucial interior rebounds that kill us in the 4th quarters.

We had a big that could run the floor in Timo. We could also run with a player like Camby or Tyson Chandler. It's not like we can only play with a big bruiser in order to get what we need in the middle. For goodness sakes D. Howard is a physical specimen that could play in this system. Also there is and has always been a huge halfcourt component to this offense and remember Shaq played under Mike too. My guess is we'll be looking at guys like Deandre Jordan. Big kids that can get up and down.

Melo and STAT have been playing in fast paced offenses. Denver was number 1 and the Knicks number 2 in scoring. So the only reason we aren't running as much now is about Billups and to some extent Melo not knowing the system well enough to execute right now. That won't be the case next year.

Just to clarify on Mozgov. He had 20 dnps coaches decision while he was in NY and averaged 13 minutes a game for the 34 games he got on the court. He was buried on the bench and pubicly sharing how discouraging his situation was in NY before he had his big game in the end of Jan.. Had he not had his huge game when injuries forced him and Randolph into the rotation I don't think he would have made it back onto the court for D'Antoni. I don't think D'Antoni was as committed to playing Moz as you imply but I could be wrong.

It took a Shawne Williams suspension in ATL to get that chance.....10 straight DNP's leading up to that time in Detroit. He made that statement after the embarrassment in L.A. from being dominated by their bigs. Amar'e began to show signs of wearing down end of January. Timo was not PART OF HIS PLANS BY DESIGN. Moreso circumstance and his hand being forced. I already covered this before. He received several DNPs prior to and after the Laker game. Ironically enough he plays him 40min in the Detroit game. How is it a player with tangible qualities as Timo goes from nothing to everything? Even if he was planning on playing him IT'S INCREDIBLY STUPID TO NOT WORK A PLAYER UP TO PLAYING HEAVY MINUTES/ROTATION MINUTES. Keep in mind too our GM had be talking about Big Men needs at the same time and volume as the coach was discussing playing Timo...take a moment to let this sink in.

That's like a person owning an extra car/bike that sits in the garage months of the year. They were driving another car that was performing well earlier in the year but was showing signs it needed a tune up along with winterizing. It was stopping on them in traffic, sputtering when started up every time they got in it, overheating....running high then running low from day-to-day. They had good weather days to drive the other car and bike in the garage but chose not to because it wasn't a vehicle that could get them to New York to California on it's first run. Bish Lips why are you trying to drive it that far on it's first run instead of taking it upstate first or to the Tri-State area or better yet from upper MH to lower MH.

Takes a Dodge Challenger and tries to drive it through the Appalachian Mountains in it's worst climate non stop

Takes a Hummer and tries to drive it on the in it's worst climate Autobahn non stop

That's the problem with this coach he's TOO EXTREME in his approach with his personnel.

IMO it's not very hard for a good coach to look bad in a situation like this. Most coaches don't like constant change. They like to know what they're working with and to feel comfortable with the decisions they make. What coach wants to work with a group finally get used to it, then start over? Then do that again and again.

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:The problem with D'antoni, or at least my fear of him, isn't just that he doesn't get great defensive effort out of poor defensive players, it's that he doesn't demand that strong defensive players be acquired.

I'll go back to an example used before. I'm not convinced he'd want a Perkins-type big boned, center. I suspect he'd prefer some willowy guy with fast feet who can presumably switch quickly, even if he can't protect the paint or keep someone from backing him down.

Thus we could forever be in the cycle of lamenting how we can't expect great defense from our given roster when he is at cause for the roster we are given.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Did the Knicks not try to get Wade and Lebron? Aside from those guys coming, who in particular were they going to get that would come in and lead the team playing great D? It seems to me that most of the time the top players in the league that are most sought after are the guys that score the most. Guys get drafted in the 1st rd. mostly for their offensive ability. How many guys are known more for their defense than anything else that we could've gotten? MOre importantly when has Mike turned down getting someone that can help us defensively? It appears to me that we went and added Jared only for defense, correct? Oh and Mike is the one that really wanted to promote Timo to starting C. He only went away from him when it was clear the kid needed more time. He clearly liked the kid a lot.

I'm suggesting that the system puts a premium on speed, which dictates a certain type of defender, the type that is rarely formidable on the interior. And when you don't protect the paint you're not only vulnerable to penetration, you're less likely to get defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds perhaps - especially long rebounds from all the missed threes - but less so the crucial interior rebounds that kill us in the 4th quarters.

We had a big that could run the floor in Timo. We could also run with a player like Camby or Tyson Chandler. It's not like we can only play with a big bruiser in order to get what we need in the middle. For goodness sakes D. Howard is a physical specimen that could play in this system. Also there is and has always been a huge halfcourt component to this offense and remember Shaq played under Mike too. My guess is we'll be looking at guys like Deandre Jordan. Big kids that can get up and down.

Melo and STAT have been playing in fast paced offenses. Denver was number 1 and the Knicks number 2 in scoring. So the only reason we aren't running as much now is about Billups and to some extent Melo not knowing the system well enough to execute right now. That won't be the case next year.

Just to clarify on Mozgov. He had 20 dnps coaches decision while he was in NY and averaged 13 minutes a game for the 34 games he got on the court. He was buried on the bench and pubicly sharing how discouraging his situation was in NY before he had his big game in the end of Jan.. Had he not had his huge game when injuries forced him and Randolph into the rotation I don't think he would have made it back onto the court for D'Antoni. I don't think D'Antoni was as committed to playing Moz as you imply but I could be wrong.

It took a Shawne Williams suspension in ATL to get that chance.....10 straight DNP's leading up to that time in Detroit. He made that statement after the embarrassment in L.A. from being dominated by their bigs. Amar'e began to show signs of wearing down end of January. Timo was not PART OF HIS PLANS BY DESIGN. Moreso circumstance and his hand being forced. I already covered this before. He received several DNPs prior to and after the Laker game. Ironically enough he plays him 40min in the Detroit game. How is it a player with tangible qualities as Timo goes from nothing to everything? Even if he was planning on playing him IT'S INCREDIBLY STUPID TO NOT WORK A PLAYER UP TO PLAYING HEAVY MINUTES/ROTATION MINUTES. Keep in mind too our GM had be talking about Big Men needs at the same time and volume as the coach was discussing playing Timo...take a moment to let this sink in.

That's like a person owning an extra car/bike that sits in the garage months of the year. They were driving another car that was performing well earlier in the year but was showing signs it needed a tune up along with winterizing. It was stopping on them in traffic, sputtering when started up every time they got in it, overheating....running high then running low from day-to-day. They had good weather days to drive the other car and bike in the garage but chose not to because it wasn't a vehicle that could get them to New York to California on it's first run. Bish Lips why are you trying to drive it that far on it's first run instead of taking it upstate first or to the Tri-State area or better yet from upper MH to lower MH.

Takes a Dodge Challenger and tries to drive it through the Appalachian Mountains in it's worst climate non stop

Takes a Hummer and tries to drive it on the in it's worst climate Autobahn non stop

That's the problem with this coach he's TOO EXTREME in his approach with his personnel.

All I can say is that you clearly have never seen this coach before he was here in this completely topsy turvy rebuild. This guy was in PHX winning big on a regular basis and even when he lost Joe Johnson and Amar'e went down with his Knee injury he still pulled something together, won and got to the WCF's. Mind you that was in the loaded Western conference. Here this has been one of the most difficult situations for any top coach to want to be in. You think Phil Jax would want to have coached here the last 3 years? He'd have a heart attack watching his beautiful career record take a hit and getting clobbered in the press as the team changed over and over and struggled?

IMO it's not very hard for a good coach to look bad in a situation like this. Most coaches don't like constant change. They like to know what they're working with and to feel comfortable with the decisions they make. What coach wants to work with a group finally get used to it, then start over? Then do that again and again.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Juice wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:The problem with D'antoni, or at least my fear of him, isn't just that he doesn't get great defensive effort out of poor defensive players, it's that he doesn't demand that strong defensive players be acquired.

I'll go back to an example used before. I'm not convinced he'd want a Perkins-type big boned, center. I suspect he'd prefer some willowy guy with fast feet who can presumably switch quickly, even if he can't protect the paint or keep someone from backing him down.

Thus we could forever be in the cycle of lamenting how we can't expect great defense from our given roster when he is at cause for the roster we are given.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Did the Knicks not try to get Wade and Lebron? Aside from those guys coming, who in particular were they going to get that would come in and lead the team playing great D? It seems to me that most of the time the top players in the league that are most sought after are the guys that score the most. Guys get drafted in the 1st rd. mostly for their offensive ability. How many guys are known more for their defense than anything else that we could've gotten? MOre importantly when has Mike turned down getting someone that can help us defensively? It appears to me that we went and added Jared only for defense, correct? Oh and Mike is the one that really wanted to promote Timo to starting C. He only went away from him when it was clear the kid needed more time. He clearly liked the kid a lot.

I'm suggesting that the system puts a premium on speed, which dictates a certain type of defender, the type that is rarely formidable on the interior. And when you don't protect the paint you're not only vulnerable to penetration, you're less likely to get defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds perhaps - especially long rebounds from all the missed threes - but less so the crucial interior rebounds that kill us in the 4th quarters.

We had a big that could run the floor in Timo. We could also run with a player like Camby or Tyson Chandler. It's not like we can only play with a big bruiser in order to get what we need in the middle. For goodness sakes D. Howard is a physical specimen that could play in this system. Also there is and has always been a huge halfcourt component to this offense and remember Shaq played under Mike too. My guess is we'll be looking at guys like Deandre Jordan. Big kids that can get up and down.

Melo and STAT have been playing in fast paced offenses. Denver was number 1 and the Knicks number 2 in scoring. So the only reason we aren't running as much now is about Billups and to some extent Melo not knowing the system well enough to execute right now. That won't be the case next year.

Just to clarify on Mozgov. He had 20 dnps coaches decision while he was in NY and averaged 13 minutes a game for the 34 games he got on the court. He was buried on the bench and pubicly sharing how discouraging his situation was in NY before he had his big game in the end of Jan.. Had he not had his huge game when injuries forced him and Randolph into the rotation I don't think he would have made it back onto the court for D'Antoni. I don't think D'Antoni was as committed to playing Moz as you imply but I could be wrong.

It took a Shawne Williams suspension in ATL to get that chance.....10 straight DNP's leading up to that time in Detroit. He made that statement after the embarrassment in L.A. from being dominated by their bigs. Amar'e began to show signs of wearing down end of January. Timo was not PART OF HIS PLANS BY DESIGN. Moreso circumstance and his hand being forced. I already covered this before. He received several DNPs prior to and after the Laker game. Ironically enough he plays him 40min in the Detroit game. How is it a player with tangible qualities as Timo goes from nothing to everything? Even if he was planning on playing him IT'S INCREDIBLY STUPID TO NOT WORK A PLAYER UP TO PLAYING HEAVY MINUTES/ROTATION MINUTES. Keep in mind too our GM had be talking about Big Men needs at the same time and volume as the coach was discussing playing Timo...take a moment to let this sink in.

That's like a person owning an extra car/bike that sits in the garage months of the year. They were driving another car that was performing well earlier in the year but was showing signs it needed a tune up along with winterizing. It was stopping on them in traffic, sputtering when started up every time they got in it, overheating....running high then running low from day-to-day. They had good weather days to drive the other car and bike in the garage but chose not to because it wasn't a vehicle that could get them to New York to California on it's first run. Bish Lips why are you trying to drive it that far on it's first run instead of taking it upstate first or to the Tri-State area or better yet from upper MH to lower MH.

Takes a Dodge Challenger and tries to drive it through the Appalachian Mountains in it's worst climate non stop

Takes a Hummer and tries to drive it on the in it's worst climate Autobahn non stop

That's the problem with this coach he's TOO EXTREME in his approach with his personnel.

Mozgov is a rookie.

He didn't really play much in NY.
He's not playing that much in Denver.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4794/gamelog;_ylt=AuuyiKvvCG7HPATZ639UMhukvLYF

Why is there so much debate about this guys playing time again?

It's one thing to not play a rookie on a team with HEALTHY(at this point) real Big Men depth(Nene/Martin/Andersen/Gallo/Harrington) compared to (Amar'e/Gallo/Williams/Turiaf/AR) the latter half smaller(height and girth), far less healthy, one completely covered in poo up to his neck in the dog house.

Juice wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Mozgov is a rookie.

He didn't really play much in NY.
He's not playing that much in Denver.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4794/gamelog;_ylt=AuuyiKvvCG7HPATZ639UMhukvLYF

Why is there so much debate about this guys playing time again?

It's one thing to not play a rookie on a team with HEALTHY(at this point) real Big Men depth(Nene/Martin/Andersen/Gallo/Harrington) compared to (Amar'e/Gallo/Williams/Turiaf/AR) the latter half smaller(height and girth), far less healthy, one completely covered in poo up to his neck in the dog house.

So if you're MDA. You start Mozgov at C in his 1st game as a rookie. He plays and he struggles.

But you leave him in there anyway?

Was that a no brainer? To me MDA had to choose between 2 crappy choices:

1. Play Mozgov and stay with a "traditional" lineup

+ He's 7" tall and can block shots

- He may not be ready for starters minutes as a young rook. risk shattering his self-confidence if he plays like crap. Fans/media turn on him. Other players question why they're on the bench.

2. Go with Amare at C

+ best 5 players on the floor. create mismatches for Amare as 5s try to guard him. He's too quick.

- creates mismatches for Amare as he's too small to bang with true centers. We get outrebounded and exploited if we have to send a 2nd defender at whoever Amare is guarding or he gets into foul trouble.

I think if we had Nene or Birdman on the Knicks..they'd be playing and Mozgov would be sitting. I think if another coach were coaching the Knicks at the beginning of the year..they might have also benched Mozgov.

I think people need to relax and stop pretending like there are such OBVIOUS solutions to the Knicks problem that MDA is ignoring because he's soooooo clueless.

Juice..you're pretty levelheaded it seems but you gotta admit some folks on this board are getting a a bit carried away with acting like if we had Tim F-in Duncan that he'd be sitting because he doesn't shoot 3s.