fishmike wrote:

My original point was that comparing him to Vince, Arenas and TMac wasn't really an accurate measure....I'm not saying he is Kobe, but he isn't those others either and that's proven...

holfresh whats the measure? What has Melo done or accomplished that puts him above those guys? At 26-27 their careers and regard in the NBA were just as high as Melo's is now, if not higher.

The last four years he has led Denver to 50+ win seasons...We have seen how difficult it has been for STAT to get t .500 over the last year...4 consecutive 50 win seasons...How many stars in the NBA are doing that without an all-star cast next to them...Kobe didn't do it...After winning 3 rings with Shaq, Kobe's teams were playing just around .500 ball until the trade for Gasol was made...None of the other guys you mention hasn't done it either...Much as you bash him for losing to the Spurs and the Lakers in the first round saying he never got over the hump, you have to admit taking on two or three all stars at a time isn't really a reflection on him...Just like Melo taking on Boston now...So saying he is just a scorer like the others isn't looking at the whole picture...

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Think about Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. Both are all-time greats. You cannot deny it. But what seperates Michael from Karl can be summed up in that final game. I'm going by memory right now so correct me if my summary is wrong but it's close enough.

1.) Jazz up one, Karl Malone has the ball up one with about 20 seconds left with a chance to put his team up 3 and most likely force game 7 at home.
2.) Karl Malone gets the ball in the post in one of the most important moments of his career and after thousands of post ups, one of the best passing most aware big men in the history of the game picks that moment to forget to look for the double team. Picks that moment to have a brain lapse
3.) Michael Jordan, hyper aware notices that Karl did not look for the double team. Hyper elite status aware that he has time to get their before Karl will find the open man. The biggest moment of the season and he picks that moment to make the best possible decision again!!! He rips the ball from Malone
4.) Next play Jordan hits the game winning shot to win the title. He didn't over penetrate and barrell into eight guys. He didn't drive into a double team. he didn't jack up a three pointer. He didn't dribble the ball off his knee. He simply took a couple dribbles and pulled up for a simple 15 footer. Always the right decision

During Jordan's career there were thoussands of moments just like that. Every tight playoff game against the Knicks and the Jazz and the Pacers, Jordan repeatedly made the perfect decision, while guys like Ewing and malone and Reggie made that one tiny fatal mistake. Taht's why Jordan has all the titles. Even later in his career when there were dozens of guys that could fly higher then him, he still won. Because he always made the right play.

It's the same thing with Melo today. For as many times as Carmelo(and Amare) have carried us, we've seen them make dozens of bonehead plays during crunch times of crucial games. I'm not even talking about over the course of the season. I'm talking about in the 15 or 20 "must win" games we've had this year. We've seen charges, forced passes, bad shots, missed box outs, losing their men on defense, forgetting to foul. These are things the true superstars just don't do. For them to make the next level(which they clearly can) they have to erase these mistakes. I personally think it's a direct result of not playing college ball for an extensive period of time, but that's just me. I love them both, but reality is reality. Being great is making big plays and also not making dumb ones.

I seen the same bonehead plays, I have also seen him execute down the stretch...He hasn't had the opportunities the others has had on the big stage...I think this is different for Carmelo being in NY...He wanted the big stage and he is trying to prove he was worthy of the big trade...I think he is being over zealous in trying to get everything right and making sure people see him playing hard...I think he is trying too hard to be honest...But he is starting to get what comes along with playing in NY...I'll give it an offseason and a chance to get to know Amare on the court...I think you will see a very different player than you saw in Denver...He has had some 10 assist games here, 17 boards there...U just don't turn stuff like that on...Right now he is trying hard to prove he belongs and it's hurting his game and his decisions...

Holfresh that's the point. The man has been great for us. The man has carried us in important games. I'm not knocking him. That last game was phenomenal. He's hit game winners. He's made heady passes and steals and blocks when it matters. he has made a fan out of me when. I was a sceptic. But you don't get labelled a elite star just for trying hard. After retirement MJ wanted to prove to the world he was still great. He didn't try to hard. He just did it. Shaq wanted to prove it was him not Kobe. So he won in Miami. There was no trying to hard and bonehead mistkes. Kobe wanted to prove he could win without Shaq. He did. These guys did it on bigger stages then _armelo. For the criticims to stop carmelo needs stop trying to hard, stop falling asleep at crucial moments and just get it done. Carmelo and amare are our leaders. Their teammates follow what they do. They should NEVER forget to foul. NEVER barrell into a double/triple team in crunch time. They should never fall asleep and give up a crucial wide open J at the key moments. Its unacceptable to happen even once to one of your stars, let alone repeatedly. During crunch time TD and Jared can be boneheads, those two cannot

That's how you become a true superstar. No doubt they can do it, and I feel good about our chances. But these moments have to be eliminated. No excuses. Otherwise the critics sill always be there

True stars need that guy on the sidelines in their ear as well...One more knock on Melo is that he isn't ready to play a full season on both ends of the court...He should know this, but a coach who he respects needs to tell him get in here in shape to play both ends all year..

My original point was that comparing him to Vince, Arenas and TMac wasn't really an accurate measure....I'm not saying he is Kobe, but he isn't those others either and that's proven...

Disagree 100%. A true star is a coach on the floor. A true star plays both ends of the floor because he knows he has to, not because someone asked him to. A trued star sedts the example for everone else. They don't slack off/ fall asleep on defense while some lesser talent role player busts his ass on both ends of the floor. The also rans are the ones that need motivation and somedone they respect. Amare could learn to be a solid defender over night but he's not paying attention to detail. 8 years into his career and he still can't play the pick and roll and still doesn't box out. Those are his choices. Not some coach. Its nice to be well coached but you don't need it for those things. There are guys on the playground that can't make a layup that can pick up a defensive concept overnight and box out on every play. To win, carmelo and Amare know they need to do these things already so why would they needto wait for a "coach they respect" how do we even know they haven't had respect for their coaches in the first place

I completely disagree with you...Every star, well most stars, who have won it all had that certain coach on the sidelines...Shaq and Kobe had Phil, before him, they weren't able to put it together to win Championships..Jordan also had Phil, Magic had Riley, Duncan had Pop...Detroit had LB...Strong personalities who weren't afraid to tell their leaders on the court what needs to happen to get the job done...Those leaders on the court were an extension of their coaches...

I don't get it. I've despised many of my coaches. I still understood it was my responsibility to do whatever I could to win the game.

Silverfuel wrote:

eViL wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Well we can even more nit-picky since the discussion never specified if we're counting inactive players. Obviously he's having a bigger impact than all inactive players and that will change the percentage.

or you can just admit that you were wrong like a normal person would do. instead you bend over backwards trying to create these meaningless distinctions like "above average starter," or to somehow claim that the 100 or so players under NBA contracts that are not active for games somehow don't count in the pool of NBA players, just so you can have a way to contort yourself out of a losing argument.

Its unreal because this guy was a big Allan Houston fan and Melo has a better FG% and the same TS% as Houston. He had never said Houston should never shoot another jump shot!

His premise is ridiculous. And "above average starter" is ridiculous. It almost as if Bonn is relying on techniques he has learned for academic debates. I don't think he is ready to admit Melo should shoot the basketball. We are better off abandoning this thread.

I knew a lot less about the game including statistics then. I'm actually much less of a Houston fan than I used to be.
It's unreal how defensive many here are about Carmelo's career. You guys are reacting like little boys who were just told Santa isn't real.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

eViL wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Well we can even more nit-picky since the discussion never specified if we're counting inactive players. Obviously he's having a bigger impact than all inactive players and that will change the percentage.

or you can just admit that you were wrong like a normal person would do. instead you bend over backwards trying to create these meaningless distinctions like "above average starter," or to somehow claim that the 100 or so players under NBA contracts that are not active for games somehow don't count in the pool of NBA players, just so you can have a way to contort yourself out of a losing argument.

Its unreal because this guy was a big Allan Houston fan and Melo has a better FG% and the same TS% as Houston. He had never said Houston should never shoot another jump shot!

His premise is ridiculous. And "above average starter" is ridiculous. It almost as if Bonn is relying on techniques he has learned for academic debates. I don't think he is ready to admit Melo should shoot the basketball. We are better off abandoning this thread.

I knew a lot less about the game including statistics then. I'm actually much less of a Houston fan than I used to be.
It's unreal how defensive many here are about Carmelo's career. You guys are reacting like little boys who were just told Santa isn't real.

It's pretty typical of you to start saying stuff like "reacting like little boys" when you have nothing basketball related to say so I won't bother telling you to keep it strictly basketball. But people aren't getting defensive about Melo. They are calling you out on your bull****.

Bippity10 wrote:Bonn there is not a person alive(besides yourself) who can read my posts in this thread and walk away thinking I'm impressed with his d. Only someone backtracking would

Thanks; you added a lot of content with that post.

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

eViL wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Well we can even more nit-picky since the discussion never specified if we're counting inactive players. Obviously he's having a bigger impact than all inactive players and that will change the percentage.

or you can just admit that you were wrong like a normal person would do. instead you bend over backwards trying to create these meaningless distinctions like "above average starter," or to somehow claim that the 100 or so players under NBA contracts that are not active for games somehow don't count in the pool of NBA players, just so you can have a way to contort yourself out of a losing argument.

Its unreal because this guy was a big Allan Houston fan and Melo has a better FG% and the same TS% as Houston. He had never said Houston should never shoot another jump shot!

His premise is ridiculous. And "above average starter" is ridiculous. It almost as if Bonn is relying on techniques he has learned for academic debates. I don't think he is ready to admit Melo should shoot the basketball. We are better off abandoning this thread.

I knew a lot less about the game including statistics then. I'm actually much less of a Houston fan than I used to be.
It's unreal how defensive many here are about Carmelo's career. You guys are reacting like little boys who were just told Santa isn't real.

Statistics? Thats what you are basing how much Carmelo should shoot the ball on? Please watch more games instead. Because you can make statistics say whatever you want!

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

eViL wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Well we can even more nit-picky since the discussion never specified if we're counting inactive players. Obviously he's having a bigger impact than all inactive players and that will change the percentage.

or you can just admit that you were wrong like a normal person would do. instead you bend over backwards trying to create these meaningless distinctions like "above average starter," or to somehow claim that the 100 or so players under NBA contracts that are not active for games somehow don't count in the pool of NBA players, just so you can have a way to contort yourself out of a losing argument.

Its unreal because this guy was a big Allan Houston fan and Melo has a better FG% and the same TS% as Houston. He had never said Houston should never shoot another jump shot!

His premise is ridiculous. And "above average starter" is ridiculous. It almost as if Bonn is relying on techniques he has learned for academic debates. I don't think he is ready to admit Melo should shoot the basketball. We are better off abandoning this thread.

I knew a lot less about the game including statistics then. I'm actually much less of a Houston fan than I used to be.
It's unreal how defensive many here are about Carmelo's career. You guys are reacting like little boys who were just told Santa isn't real.

Statistics? Thats what you are basing how much Carmelo should shoot the ball on? Please watch more games instead. Because you can make statistics say whatever you want!

That's why I teach my students to know the strengths and weaknesses of different statistical analyses. They often make comments like yours at the start of the semester but not once they've learned more.

i can't believe you are a teacher.

rojasmas wrote:I agree with Bonn that Carmelo is not a superstar. He is a real good offensive player. I would take probably 15 players in the league before him though if I was starting a team.

You people (Anti-Carmello) now are about to Blame Melo for this Game#3 loss as well as Knicks being down 0-3 to defender East conf.
champs Celtics.

Amazingly Crazy!
Knicks are fortunate to have Melo & a bunch of guys, with a limpy injured Amare and Billups
and nearly won two games in Boston and didn't.

Next year.
Whom knows ? perhaps after 1 more yr next season we'll have a Center and new coach too. Knicks are on the rise
*respectively chow

holfresh wrote:

rojasmas wrote:I agree with Bonn that Carmelo is not a superstar. He is a real good offensive player. I would take probably 15 players in the league before him though if I was starting a team.

Name those 15 players..

Dont worry, we'll wait....

Bonn1997 wrote:Tell me, if you're saying Carmelo is a superstar and you're not looking at solely PPG, what other concrete areas of the game is he at the superstar level? There are definitely areas of the game where he is above average for a starter (especially the 6 career RPG) but I see nothing that's outstanding.

Still waiting...