TMS wrote:

grillco wrote:Just more crap to sully the works. If Melo ends up in Jersey, Walsh's plan can be officially stamped a failure.

i'm sure someone will come up with a way to spin it as a success... remember, it doesn't matter if we miss out on all the good players, as long as we're flexible... flexibility wins championships!

oohah wrote:

fishmike wrote:why are you guys assuming the Knicks can trade for Melo and simply arent? I dont get it. Walsh said point blank they dont want our players. How is it a failure that we cant execute on a trade when the team with the player we are trying to aquire doesnt want what the Knicks are offering?

I agree! If anything, the real failure was a) Blowing the '09 draft on Jo Hill or whatever his name was, and then b) packaging that blown draft pick with other soon to be blown picks!

Thereby costing the Knicks assets they could trade for Carmelo Anthony

oohah

Everyone agrees Walsh phucked up that pick. Every GM makes mistakes. By clearing cap space Walsh was able to aquire Amare and other pieces. Those pieces are the only reason Melo wants to play here in the first place. He's Amare's buddy and has Wade/Bosh/Lebron Heat envy.

So rather than going back in time and suggesting you would have done every possible move that would have worked out perfectly (of course) whats your current course of action? Because thats actually interesting and worth discussing.

grillco wrote:

Markji wrote:

grillco wrote:So is it safe to speculate that Danilo and Wilson sat out tonight because they may be leaving in the next day or two?

One story talks about "resting" starters, but only three of five were rested. Obviously we know Amare isn't going anywhere. What say yee UK forumites?

Felton only played 22 min. so that is one starter who played 2/3 time.
Mosgov 36 min - he needs the experience so he is the only starter who played significant minutes.
Turiaf - former starter for us at Center and veteran played only 17 min.

So I think it is safe to say that the starters were rested on back to back game days. Also, giving the young players more time and experience is wise at this point in pre-season.

You're no fun at all.

oohah wrote:

fishmike wrote:even less constructive.

Everyone agrees Walsh phucked up that pick. Every GM makes mistakes. By clearing cap space Walsh was able to aquire Amare and other pieces. Those pieces are the only reason Melo wants to play here in the first place. He's Amare's buddy and has Wade/Bosh/Lebron Heat envy.

So rather than going back in time and suggesting you would have done every possible move that would have worked out perfectly (of course) whats your current course of action? Because thats actually interesting and worth discussing.

Oh, is that what you do now, go around policing who has a constructive post and who doesn't? Maybe you should start with yourself as I see plenty of un-constructive posts on your part. Perhaps your idea of what is constructive is anyone who agrees with you, I think that you probably won't be commenting on the constructiveness of those posts - if I am wrong, please show me.

***

Let me help you out Fishmike: Exactly zero posts are constructive or non-constructive because we don't affect anything the Knicks do. So if you don't mind, I'll go ahead and talk about whatever I please, including commenting on what the Knicks did wrong that caused them to blow other opportunities.

Perhaps the least constructive post of all is your going around deciding the quality of my posts, considering the garbage I see you posting.

oohah

I said this out of respect of your basketball opinion as a fan.

Its more fun discuss what the options our team might have as opposed to bitching about management's past errors, regardless of whether or not you support them.

What I'm trying to say is who cares about past mistakes or how right or wrong you were about some draft 2 years ago, etc etc.

What I wanted to know is what would you do now? Whats your desire as fan? Melo is a FA, wants to come here and Knicks have cap space next summer. Would you wait and use that leverage or would you do everything possible to move players and pieces around to aquire Melo now?

How much would you give up?

fishmike wrote:not all. I dont care if you dont agree with me.

I said this out of respect of your basketball opinion as a fan.

Its more fun discuss what the options our team might have as opposed to bitching about management's past errors, regardless of whether or not you support them.

What I'm trying to say is who cares about past mistakes or how right or wrong you were about some draft 2 years ago, etc etc.

What I wanted to know is what would you do now? Whats your desire as fan? Melo is a FA, wants to come here and Knicks have cap space next summer. Would you wait and use that leverage or would you do everything possible to move players and pieces around to aquire Melo now?

How much would you give up?

I am happy to give my opinion as to what should be done, but I am also going to do some bitching especially while said actions I am bitching about are currently biting my team in the ass. My suggestions mean nothing without context.

***

I'd love to acquire Carmelo, but I think other teams can offer much better options.

So with that in mind I think the Knicks should prepare to fire Mike D'Antoni, because I think he is more style than substance, and bring in a coach who is not the next superstar savior, but has some solid traditional basketball strategies to go along with some creativity. (Like a Rick Adelman clone.)

As far as player movement, I don't want the Knicks to trade anyone unless the deal clearly improves the roster in an area where team play suffers. The obvious biggest gaping holes are rebounding, and unfortunately how the offense is run by the guards. We can only guess if Felton will become the type of floor general needed, but at the moment I like Toney Douglas better. I am not saying Douglas is better than Felton now, I just like him better and he might be better than Felton soon given the chance to develop.

The other thing the Knicks need is a slashing type small forward.

I don't have suggestions for who might be available etc. The cupboard seem bare.

oohah

oohah wrote:

fishmike wrote:Would you wait and use that leverage or would you do everything possible to move players and pieces around to aquire Melo now?

How much would you give up?

I would give up any 3 players outside of Stoudemire to acquire Carmelo, but I would not want to lose significant cap space to in order to land another decent free agent as as complementary piece. I would also add in a first round pick in addition to those 3 players if the Knicks had such an asset to offer - but Walsh blew that with the Hill trade.

oohah

So you like the "cap space" tat was acquired in the Hill trade and want to hold on to it? But You also blame Walsh for blowing the Hill trade? -- Nice.

oohah wrote:

loweyecue wrote:So you like the "cap space" tat was acquired in the Hill trade and want to hold on to it? But You also blame Walsh for blowing the Hill trade? -- Nice.

Actually the Knicks had lots of cap space before the Hill trade.

Perhaps you don't understand that the cap space acquired in the Hill/Jeffries/2 first round pick trade really only had value in its immediate possible application for the failed LeBron effort because Jared Jeffries' contract expires at the end of this season. So that means that Walsh actually gave Houston a pretty nice chip to use in a trade this season, or they can let him expire.

Additionally the worst part of the Hill trade was trading and swapping our lottery picks. Oops, I mean first round picks!

Give it some thought and come better with your reply next time.

oohah

Or perhaps I agreed with the trade then and agree with it now. I am very much of a risk taker and I don't sit around crying over what could have been. I think that was the best thing Walsj could have done then and I completely support that trade.

And since you like to come in with 20/20 hindsight on every transaction please explain how having Jordan Hill and JJ3 on this team instead of the extra cap space now would have helped us land Melo.

oohah wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Or perhaps I agreed with the trade then and agree with it now. I am very much of a risk taker and I don't sit around crying over what could have been. I think that was the best thing Walsj could have done then and I completely support that trade.

Your memory isn't very good. I did not like the trade when it was in rumor stage and then when it actually went down I disliked it even more, and you yourself had something to say then, and you were equally wrong back then, but at least at that point landing LeBron was theoretically possible. You are wrong on this point, but at least you are consistent.

P.S. Isiah Thomas is a risk taker too.

loweyecue wrote:And since you like to come in with 20/20 hindsight on every transaction please explain how having Jordan Hill and JJ3 on this team instead of the extra cap space now would have helped us land Melo.

Again, it isn't hindsight, it is simply being right, which is what I am.

Now let me explain to you: Having a large expiring contract (Jeffries) and a first round pick to trade, and another first round pick to swap, in addition to whatever the Knicks are offering (Gallinari, Randolph, etc.) to Denver would be very helpful to acquire Carmelo Anthony, this very moment -- Please, please tell me that you understand that!

Hey, they might even have been able to throw in Jordan hill if the Nuggets wanted him!

But hey, if you are happy with ill-advised failed trades that hurt your chances to obtain a top 5 player, that is your prerogative!

oohah

We are already offering Denver a large expiring contract in Curry. And no I don't think adding Jordan Hill and pick to that would get us Melo. But you can keep trying to make that case if you like. And if we had the two first round picks like you suggest we wouldn't have Randolph to offer along with Gallo, because I don't think we could have completed the D Lee trade without the extra cap space that came out of the Jordan Hill trade. And without the Jordan Hill Trade I doubt we would even get Amare to come here an play with Lee, Jeffries and Duhon. So yeah, whatever dude.

KMart is in the last year of his deal. It wouldn't screw up the Knicks cap one bit. I think they should just add him to the deal. It would put them over the top.

ECurry has a 15% trade kicker, but the Knicks have already paid half his salary as of July 1st because that's how good ole Isiah structured the deal, so in terms of real money, he's less of a salary hit. Still the same cap number and luxury tax. Buuuut.

Denver sends:
Melo 17.1M
KMart 16.5M
total - 33.6M

New York sends
Curry 11.2M + 1.68M trade kicker
Turiaf 4M
Gallo 3.3M
AR 1.965M
Kelenna 3.364M
total - 25.5M
within 25%
also sends $3M cash

Denver saves $16M by lowering their luxury cap hit by $8M this season. they also get the $3M. they also save on curry because half his salary is paid up front which is another 5.6M in real cash. this deal saves Denver $24M and gives them two young potential players in AR and Gallo and two rotation guys in Turiaf and Kelenna.

our team would be:

Felton / Toney
Walker / Fields / Mason
Melo / Chandler
Amare / Kmart
Mozgov / Sign Earl Barron or bring Jerome Jordan back from Turkey