joec32033 wrote:Via Tommy Dee via another spource via twitter...

From: @TommyDeeTKB
Sent: Jul 22, 2010 12:45p

RT @AnthonyMSG: Spoke to #Knicks source. Saying The #Knicks are offering Chandler, Randolph,buike, Turiaf, to NO for CP and E.O. No curry

sent via UberTwitter
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/TommyDeeTKB/status/19268301730

Tommy Dee's source is laughable because that is not a plausible trade under the cap for many reasons.

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

I am in agreement but I bolded your comment above since CP3 has two years left...So he is a rental :)

BRIGGS wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

agreed. i think there is a fine line b/w what constitutes a "good deal" in trading for CP3. That being said, Briggs, ray felton for his career is a 14 pt 6 assist guy. i agree his #'s will get inflated, but saying he'll lead the league in assists is a bit much.

chris paul is a year younger than felton is. for his career he's legit put up 19/10/5reb!/2.5 stl. those are superstar #'s. look at isiah thomas' career #'s, very very similar. this guy, in d'antoni's offense, could legitimately put up 20 points/15 assists/6 rebounds/2.5 steals. just eye popping stuff. if nash won 2 back to back MVPs i can't imagine what CP3 would do in the prime of his career playing with a big like amare. (CP3's best year in 08-09 he put up 23/11/6/3 those are real numbers not inflated briggs #s thats what this guy did with byron scott as a head coach)

felton was signed to a very very realistic contract. if the knicks made this move i don't see why they couldn't turn around and get some assets for felton.

obviously the knicks have the leverage here. they have had a succesful offseason so far, have accumulated a few nice picks, and CP3 is the one that demanded a trade. the hornets are the one with the disgruntled superstar, not the knicks.

walsh has made his name as a GM pulling off good trades. his pacer teams post reggie were forged with a few wily trades (getting JO for dale davis, getting artest and brad miller for jalen rose), i think everyone agrees lee was gonna go for nothing and he managed to get AR, turaif, and azabuike out of it --- a great deal when the flip side of the coin is nothing.

we'll see what happens, but how can you NOT want a guy like CP3? i know he has an injury issue -- guess what, so does amare. you can be in the conversation as a championship contender with a duo of CP3 and amare.

Explain to me what leverage the Knicks have when Chris Paul is signed for 2 more years? None--it would be expensive and stupid at this point. We just paid 100mm $ for a guy who is a legit health rish--now what we want to start giving up 21 year old 7 footers. Sometimes I think that people need to think more about it-- we are in 0 need. We wait and deal from position of strength--see what WE have and not rush into very expensive players who haev been hurt for lengthy periods without proof of health. Im very excited to see what we have---I think its a winning team--a few tweaks--OK but let it go.

Briggs, giving up a 21 yr old 7 footer to get a 25 yr old who's career averages are 19/10/5/2 seems like why you acquire the 21 YO 7', so you can get the all-world point guard. obviously if CP3's knees are a huge ? mark its a gamble but i don't think they are. i agree, we need to deal from a position of strength. a position of strength, to me, is when another team's star player comes out and says "i dont want to play here anymore, trade me to the knicks" which is essentially what just happened.

dealing gallinari and randolph would be excessive. dealing one of them would not be. turn felton and his very serviceable contract around in december and get another few assets. this is the best PG in the league we are talking about.

Let me ask you a question--what is wrong with the strategy of waiting to see what we have before we give the whoel farnm away for a player who has not proven he is healthy? what is the rush or need?

Briggs, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. the first line of my initial response to your post was "i think there is a fine line b/w what constitutes a "good deal" in trading for CP3." if that is giving them cap space and taking on okafor and giving up gallinari and randolph, obviously its NOT a good deal. losing one of gallinari/randolph and one of chandler/douglas in addition to giving up expiring deals to make it work to get CP3 is, in my opinion, a very good deal. i don't think the knicks should just rush in and shoot their load, i don't think they will. walsh has been a pretty good trade broker over the years and i expect it to continue.

the flip side of your coin is waiting until the season, CP3 comes back healthy and is averaging 25/11/6/3 over the first month, and now his price goes up. knicks need to do "due diligence" on this, see if he's healthy, and if he is, make a power move and get the guy. he's a top 5 player in the league AND a point guard (he would absolutely thrive in this offense).

don't get taken but also don't NOT make the deal b/c you have to give up a talented young player. the heat gave up odom and butler to get shaq. butler never became the star ppl thought and the heat won a title. the celtics gave up al jefferson and gerald green and telfair to get KG, they won a title. you acquire the young assets to make a move like this, a power move that puts you in the championship contender category.

joec32033 wrote:Via Tommy Dee via another spource via twitter...

From: @TommyDeeTKB
Sent: Jul 22, 2010 12:45p

RT @AnthonyMSG: Spoke to #Knicks source. Saying The #Knicks are offering Chandler, Randolph,buike, Turiaf, to NO for CP and E.O. No curry

sent via UberTwitter
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/TommyDeeTKB/status/19268301730

That's dear Avi for CP3, that I can live with.

jazz74 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

TMS wrote:i'll tell you guys what's stupid... that's trading away young assets for a player you don't even know if you'll be able to sign in a year's time... giving up young assets to attain a superstar in a trade is not stupid... that's what teams like the Celtics did to get KG & the Heat did to get Shaq, both on their way to winning a championship because of it... i love how the notion of giving up young assets for a player like CP3 now is so out of the question for the same people that were so adamant in their defense of the all-in for Lebron plan over the past 2 years.

not wanting to give up the entire farm for CP3 is understandable, i don't think anyone advocates giving up AR, Gallo & Chandler all in the same deal for a player who had a major surgery... you can draw to flashbacks of the ill-fated McDyess deal in some respects... but in other respects CP3 is a much more valuable player, especially when you already have a player like Amare in the fold who would be at the receiving end of his 10 assists a night over Ray Felton's 5... & you would also likely be adding a player like OK4 to the fold as well which shores up your frontcourt even more... but no, people would rather wait out another season & get strung along once again by Melo hoping he'll decide to sign here next summer... the time for waiting is over... if a superstar player is available in a trade, you go for it... that's what amassing young assets is supposed to net us afterall... giving up AR is not going to make or break this franchise... attaining a player like CP3 very well could... of course there's a risk, just like there was a risk giving away assets before we even knew what Lebron was going to do this summer... i'd rather give up assets knowing who you're getting personally... this is CP3 we're talking about... you won't find a better PG in the NBA anywhere & people are hedging on giving up AR... wow.

You make a strong case TMS. For certain players, certain teams ,this would be a smart move.
My big problem is not only can Paul turn into Dice as you mentioned but Randolph has Camby
like potential. Not the humpty dumpty potential he had in NY but the Denver variety. Gallo
is already one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Nothing good has come out of win now
in a decade, and it feels like another case of going all in on a bad knee.

No guarantees that AR or Gallo will get to the next level but I like the odds better than
Paul running a high octane offense on a bad knee for more than a couple of seasons without
him starting to miss games. No way NY passes Miami in the next couple of years but it does
give AR and Gallo the chance to become very good pieces for a contender while the big three get
older, and the Knicks still have enough room to sign a superstar in their prime on better
terms because this team is going to get better.

nothing is guaranteed whether out young assets will get better or not. it has always been a win now scenario in the league but the microscope has always been on us because we have it blowing up in our face. tell me a team in the recent past that won that havent made shrewd moves and developed youth except arguably san antonio. the days of getting young players and sitting around and waiting are gone. we waited two years now its time for assertion.

It still doesn't change the fact that this team can't win now, not with Miami in the way so
why not use the time to build a better contender? If the Knicks didn't have enough cap room
to sign a superstar we knew to be healthy than I would be able to understand the rush. I call
it a rush because it shouldn't take more than a season to figure out if Randolph can handle
NY and Gallo is ready for the next level. When you speak of developing talent, that usually
implies a long process. Figuring out if Gallo and AR are the real deal should not take that
long.

BigSm00th wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

jazz74 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

joec32033 wrote:Via Tommy Dee via another spource via twitter...

From: @TommyDeeTKB
Sent: Jul 22, 2010 12:45p

RT @AnthonyMSG: Spoke to #Knicks source. Saying The #Knicks are offering Chandler, Randolph,buike, Turiaf, to NO for CP and E.O. No curry

sent via UberTwitter
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/TommyDeeTKB/status/19268301730

So it begins. McDyese and Houston 2.0

Okafor
Amare
Gallo
Walker
Paul

No Cap Space
No picks

And the hits keep coming. Now I will admit we should be really good for 2-3 years but after that we are in a world of hurt.

look, i am not naive to know that this is a risk. mcdyess debacle was fresh in my mind when we signed stoudamire. however, we will still have the cap space if we dont move ec's contract so we can get a mojor player next year as well as cp3 and amare. you have to be bananas not to explore this possibility especially with miami and lakers rolling a three star team. this could blow up or it could eradicate ten years of suffering. better than another year of not getting at least 40 wins.

I understand wanting to compete as soon as possible but Chris Paul is coming off a serious knee injury. I prefer to see what kind of guys we have in Gallo and Randolph this year.

Also guys rise and fall in the NBA quickly. You got young PGs like Deron Williams, Russel Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Rondo, Stephen Curry, and Brandon Jennings who arent coming off of major knee surgery. How long will Chris Paul be considered a top 3 PG in the league?

I understand where you're coming from. This is why Walsh gets paid millions of bucks and the Knicks have a team of doctors. You see if Paul is OK. If he is, you make the deal. Done. If CP3 comes back and is killing it, then you have to give up more to get him.

In response to your question, if CP3 is healthy he's the best in the game. Dude 08-09 (2 seasons ago his last fully healthy one) he put up 23 points/11 assists/6 rebounds/3 steals on 50% FG and 85% FT. those are video game #s! let me see d-rose or westbrook put up 23/11/6/3 w/ efficient shooting for an entire season!

not to mention he led in assist with a team with little offensive talent to begin with ( winning 50+ games with them). this team would undoubtedly be the best team he has been on.

Downside is that they may not pan out and not be assets at all. Upside is we may be able to add Deron to Amare + TD, Gallo, AR wihtout giving up anything

I think if Chris Paul didn't have knee issues this would be a no brainer to try to go for him. Easier to find another Gallo or Anthony Randolph then another Chris Paul.

As is...tough call.

BigSm00th wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:I understand wanting to compete as soon as possible but Chris Paul is coming off a serious knee injury. I prefer to see what kind of guys we have in Gallo and Randolph this year.

Also guys rise and fall in the NBA quickly. You got young PGs like Deron Williams, Russel Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Rondo, Stephen Curry, and Brandon Jennings who arent coming off of major knee surgery. How long will Chris Paul be considered a top 3 PG in the league?

I understand where you're coming from. This is why Walsh gets paid millions of bucks and the Knicks have a team of doctors. You see if Paul is OK. If he is, you make the deal. Done. If CP3 comes back and is killing it, then you have to give up more to get him.

In response to your question, if CP3 is healthy he's the best in the game. Dude 08-09 (2 seasons ago his last fully healthy one) he put up 23 points/11 assists/6 rebounds/3 steals on 50% FG and 85% FT. those are video game #s! let me see d-rose or westbrook put up 23/11/6/3 w/ efficient shooting for an entire season!

The Knicks would sign off on a trade regardless of his health. We maxed out Amare's uninsured knees.

Now you are correct. IF he is healthy then he is worth it. However when you hear about guys taking longer than expected to heal that isnt a good sign. Plus we need to also factor in the system he will be playing in. I believe Deron Williams is the best PG in the league and has been so for awhile. I see Chris Paul getting bumped down sooner rather than later.

I also think we could potentially sign cheaper alternative who are up for rookie extensions. As I keep saying, Randolph and Gallo will need to be extended in 2 yrs. I prefer to see what we have. I also have my eye on Mayo because we know Memphis isn't going to carry alot of salary.

At the end of the day we need to remain flexible. I dont see the point of rushing to be capped out.