fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:If this isnt a natural progression of a player I dont know what is. His assists, points and minutes went up year after year while his fantastic FG% remains consistant. A 20ppg scorer who shoots 55% and people around here want to dump him. I really dont get this board sometimes

20 ppg on 55% who is also the worst defensive big in the entire league. That's why.

who do you want that's improving the team? I would like to hear.

I guess I have the same plan as Donnie Walsh - LeBron James or Dwyane Wade with Chris Bosh and trade Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry's expiring for a PG. Sign veterans to fill out the roster. I do not want to waste $10M on David Lee or Max money on Joe Johnson.

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:If this isnt a natural progression of a player I dont know what is. His assists, points and minutes went up year after year while his fantastic FG% remains consistant. A 20ppg scorer who shoots 55% and people around here want to dump him. I really dont get this board sometimes

20 ppg on 55% who is also the worst defensive big in the entire league. That's why.

who do you want that's improving the team? I would like to hear.

I guess I have the same plan as Donnie Walsh - LeBron James or Dwyane Wade with Chris Bosh and trade Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry's expiring for a PG. Sign veterans to fill out the roster. I do not want to waste $10M on David Lee or Max money on Joe Johnson.

so your only complaint about Lee is his defense BUT

You would rather give Bosh $17mm and play him next to a guy drafted in the 2nd round or making the league minimum
Then sign Lee for $9mm (6 years $70mm) and have $8mm to put a legit player next to him.

Sorry Sergio, but thats garbage. Bosh is NOT a good defender, and in case you havent noticed he's done little to elevate the level of play of his teams. Whats Toronto done the last 3-4 years?

We should be looking to put someone next to Lee to maximize what he does, and if you took time to watch games he DOES a lot. The guy's worked himself into an all star 20/12/4/55% point forward. Go get a center to protect this guy's production.

Lee's expanded his role on offense, especially adding to his range. 37% of his shots were jumpers, and the guy maintained his 55% FGs. Thats some elite level stuff there, and thats why he went to the all star game. You dont get rid of guys like that. You protect them by putting pieces around him.

The ONLY way you let Lee walk is if Lebron OR Wade say they will come only if we bring Bosh/Amare as well.

Knicks will be much better with Lee+Tyrus Thomas then with Bosh + some minimum making scrub. Say hello to Marcus Haislip.

Not a good plan dude.

Awful.

s3231 wrote:Only reason we should ever sign Bosh is if LeBron requires us to do so or if we are pairing him with Lee.

If we miss out on LeBron, I completely agree with Fish that bringing back Lee has to be a main priority.

We know Lee can't defend other centers but I don't see why some people are against bringing him back as a PF. If you add a legitimate center to play with Lee, this team gets much better instantly. The only reason why I would allow pairing Lee with Bosh or Amare is that offensively, we would be almost impossible to stop in the front court and even if it doesn't work out, adding a player like Bosh or Amare gives you a good trading chip to use to get the right player. Ideally though, I would love to bring in a big man that can block shots and rebound next to Lee. Pair that with a star guard and we would really have something going.

and other centers can't defend him. In anything, he out performed most Centers

s3231 wrote:Only reason we should ever sign Bosh is if LeBron requires us to do so or if we are pairing him with Lee.

If we miss out on LeBron, I completely agree with Fish that bringing back Lee has to be a main priority.

We know Lee can't defend other centers but I don't see why some people are against bringing him back as a PF. If you add a legitimate center to play with Lee, this team gets much better instantly. The only reason why I would allow pairing Lee with Bosh or Amare is that offensively, we would be almost impossible to stop in the front court and even if it doesn't work out, adding a player like Bosh or Amare gives you a good trading chip to use to get the right player. Ideally though, I would love to bring in a big man that can block shots and rebound next to Lee. Pair that with a star guard and we would really have something going.

I don't think Tyrus Thomas is a good fit for us though. I like him but I think we would need more size next to Lee and I'm not convinced Thomas is consistent enough to give us what we need. Someone like a Dalembert would be a very nice fit though and from what I read around the trading deadline, very attainable.

David Lee defending PF's is still a huge weakness. In close games in the 4th quarter, teams just drive towards Lee and get dunks and lay-ups at a high rate. And Lee is terrible, just TERRIBLE defending the pick-and-roll. Lee's weakness defensively has nothing to do with his size. He has no IQ and he's too soft. Sliding Lee to PF isn't going to change that. We're not winning anything with a PF who plays no D.

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:If this isnt a natural progression of a player I dont know what is. His assists, points and minutes went up year after year while his fantastic FG% remains consistant. A 20ppg scorer who shoots 55% and people around here want to dump him. I really dont get this board sometimes

20 ppg on 55% who is also the worst defensive big in the entire league. That's why.

who do you want that's improving the team? I would like to hear.

I guess I have the same plan as Donnie Walsh - LeBron James or Dwyane Wade with Chris Bosh and trade Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry's expiring for a PG. Sign veterans to fill out the roster. I do not want to waste $10M on David Lee or Max money on Joe Johnson.

so your only complaint about Lee is his defense BUT

You would rather give Bosh $17mm and play him next to a guy drafted in the 2nd round or making the league minimum
Then sign Lee for $9mm (6 years $70mm) and have $8mm to put a legit player next to him.

Sorry Sergio, but thats garbage. Bosh is NOT a good defender, and in case you havent noticed he's done little to elevate the level of play of his teams. Whats Toronto done the last 3-4 years?

We should be looking to put someone next to Lee to maximize what he does, and if you took time to watch games he DOES a lot. The guy's worked himself into an all star 20/12/4/55% point forward. Go get a center to protect this guy's production.

Lee's expanded his role on offense, especially adding to his range. 37% of his shots were jumpers, and the guy maintained his 55% FGs. Thats some elite level stuff there, and thats why he went to the all star game. You dont get rid of guys like that. You protect them by putting pieces around him.

The ONLY way you let Lee walk is if Lebron OR Wade say they will come only if we bring Bosh/Amare as well.

Knicks will be much better with Lee+Tyrus Thomas then with Bosh + some minimum making scrub. Say hello to Marcus Haislip.

Not a good plan dude.

You're not getting David Lee for $9M. You'll probably not get him for $10M either. You best be sure that agent will ask for $13M. And you can't look at Lee as this 20/10/5 SuperStar. If he was that good as his stats say, we wouldn't be that bad. Those are franchise level player stats and I'm sorry, Lee is not at that level. I don't care what his stats are. He's a stat paddler on a losing team. I cannot take his stats seriously. Considering he's also the worst defensive big on the planet.

So, I would rather spend an extra $3M and Chris Bosh. But you're right, Bosh is no Dwight Howard and can't carry a team by himself. Honestly if we just come away with signing Bosh without LeBron James or Dwyane Wade, I don't think we improve much. However, having a Star like Bosh who is only 26 years old and arguably the second best big in the conference behind Howard will prove to be enticing for future players like Chris Paul or Carmelo Anthony to come here. I don't see those type of players having that type of respect for Lee.

This summer is not just about having the best team next year. It's about having the best team for years to come and in that case, you easily take Bosh over Lee.

first off how do you pad stats and score at 55%? You cant pad that. This isnt Jamal Crawford's 20ppg. This is one of the high % scorers in the league. Why will that change? He's been a high % guy since his first day in the league. What he's done is added post moves (nobody thought he could) and added a long jumper (nobody thought he could) and he still scores at that rate. You cant pad that.

as far a his salary do some math. Knicks have his rights and can offer him a 6th year and 10.5% raises. If another team signs him it can only be for 5 years and 8% raises. Also Lee WANTS to be here. He loves the team and the city. He went to Dick Barnett's funeral for god sakes.

why $9mm? Because of the market and we own his bird right. If the Knicks give him a $70mm contract starting at $9mm another team has to give him $12mm to match that money. If the Knicks give him $10.5 mm (thats 6 years $82mm) another team would have to offer him a contract starting at $14mm, and thats just to MATCH, which we know isnt good enough because Lee wants to be here.

Who is giving Lee $14mm? $16mm? Is someone giving Lee the max? Sorry, I dont think so.

Bosh is so overrated. You just joined that club.

Lee isnt a super star, but he is an all star. His #s are legit. He's played out of position and outscores and outrebounds his opposition every night, and its not through volume, his FG% is higher. He takes better shots and makes more of them.

Imagine how good this guy would be with a real play maker getting him the ball? He's scoring at 55% with Chris Duhon dishing to him.

Bosh isnt coming here. No way this guy can handle NY. He cant handle Toronto.

AnubisADL wrote:

fishmike wrote:Your just wrong here man.

first off how do you pad stats and score at 55%? You cant pad that. This isnt Jamal Crawford's 20ppg. This is one of the high % scorers in the league. Why will that change? He's been a high % guy since his first day in the league. What he's done is added post moves (nobody thought he could) and added a long jumper (nobody thought he could) and he still scores at that rate. You cant pad that.

as far a his salary do some math. Knicks have his rights and can offer him a 6th year and 10.5% raises. If another team signs him it can only be for 5 years and 8% raises. Also Lee WANTS to be here. He loves the team and the city. He went to Dick Barnett's funeral for god sakes.

why $9mm? Because of the market and we own his bird right. If the Knicks give him a $70mm contract starting at $9mm another team has to give him $12mm to match that money. If the Knicks give him $10.5 mm (thats 6 years $82mm) another team would have to offer him a contract starting at $14mm, and thats just to MATCH, which we know isnt good enough because Lee wants to be here.

Who is giving Lee $14mm? $16mm? Is someone giving Lee the max? Sorry, I dont think so.

Bosh is so overrated. You just joined that club.

Lee isnt a super star, but he is an all star. His #s are legit. He's played out of position and outscores and outrebounds his opposition every night, and its not through volume, his FG% is higher. He takes better shots and makes more of them.

Imagine how good this guy would be with a real play maker getting him the ball? He's scoring at 55% with Chris Duhon dishing to him.

Bosh isnt coming here. No way this guy can handle NY. He cant handle Toronto.

The problem you fail to account for is that Lee's stats drop off when playing next to rebounding bigs. David Lee's stats next to Randolph were pathetic. However you see Gasol was able to get his stats playing next to Randolph. If you factor in Gallo's eventual move to PF then paying David Lee is not a wise move.

Lee's last 8 games he averaged 22/11 his last 8 games playing next to Barron who average 12/11. I fail to see how Lee's 16 games a year ago w/ Zach should hold more relevence. What did Lee average w/ Zach?

It doesnt matter. Walsh has a better brain than letting a player as good as Lee walk for junk like Whiteside or Turaf

AnubisADL wrote:

fishmike wrote:Your just wrong here man.

first off how do you pad stats and score at 55%? You cant pad that. This isnt Jamal Crawford's 20ppg. This is one of the high % scorers in the league. Why will that change? He's been a high % guy since his first day in the league. What he's done is added post moves (nobody thought he could) and added a long jumper (nobody thought he could) and he still scores at that rate. You cant pad that.

as far a his salary do some math. Knicks have his rights and can offer him a 6th year and 10.5% raises. If another team signs him it can only be for 5 years and 8% raises. Also Lee WANTS to be here. He loves the team and the city. He went to Dick Barnett's funeral for god sakes.

why $9mm? Because of the market and we own his bird right. If the Knicks give him a $70mm contract starting at $9mm another team has to give him $12mm to match that money. If the Knicks give him $10.5 mm (thats 6 years $82mm) another team would have to offer him a contract starting at $14mm, and thats just to MATCH, which we know isnt good enough because Lee wants to be here.

Who is giving Lee $14mm? $16mm? Is someone giving Lee the max? Sorry, I dont think so.

Bosh is so overrated. You just joined that club.

Lee isnt a super star, but he is an all star. His #s are legit. He's played out of position and outscores and outrebounds his opposition every night, and its not through volume, his FG% is higher. He takes better shots and makes more of them.

Imagine how good this guy would be with a real play maker getting him the ball? He's scoring at 55% with Chris Duhon dishing to him.

Bosh isnt coming here. No way this guy can handle NY. He cant handle Toronto.

The problem you fail to account for is that Lee's stats drop off when playing next to rebounding bigs. David Lee's stats next to Randolph were pathetic. However you see Gasol was able to get his stats playing next to Randolph. If you factor in Gallo's eventual move to PF then paying David Lee is not a wise move.

Funny how you fail to mention that Lee came off the bench for a number of those 9 games that were played with Randolph...

Of course his stats aren't going to be flashy in under 30 mpg. Go look at the box scores though, I guarantee you he still shot over 50% in those 9 games.

fishmike wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

fishmike wrote:Your just wrong here man.

first off how do you pad stats and score at 55%? You cant pad that. This isnt Jamal Crawford's 20ppg. This is one of the high % scorers in the league. Why will that change? He's been a high % guy since his first day in the league. What he's done is added post moves (nobody thought he could) and added a long jumper (nobody thought he could) and he still scores at that rate. You cant pad that.

as far a his salary do some math. Knicks have his rights and can offer him a 6th year and 10.5% raises. If another team signs him it can only be for 5 years and 8% raises. Also Lee WANTS to be here. He loves the team and the city. He went to Dick Barnett's funeral for god sakes.

why $9mm? Because of the market and we own his bird right. If the Knicks give him a $70mm contract starting at $9mm another team has to give him $12mm to match that money. If the Knicks give him $10.5 mm (thats 6 years $82mm) another team would have to offer him a contract starting at $14mm, and thats just to MATCH, which we know isnt good enough because Lee wants to be here.

Who is giving Lee $14mm? $16mm? Is someone giving Lee the max? Sorry, I dont think so.

Bosh is so overrated. You just joined that club.

Lee isnt a super star, but he is an all star. His #s are legit. He's played out of position and outscores and outrebounds his opposition every night, and its not through volume, his FG% is higher. He takes better shots and makes more of them.

Imagine how good this guy would be with a real play maker getting him the ball? He's scoring at 55% with Chris Duhon dishing to him.

Bosh isnt coming here. No way this guy can handle NY. He cant handle Toronto.

The problem you fail to account for is that Lee's stats drop off when playing next to rebounding bigs. David Lee's stats next to Randolph were pathetic. However you see Gasol was able to get his stats playing next to Randolph. If you factor in Gallo's eventual move to PF then paying David Lee is not a wise move.

Gallo isnt a PF, he's a 3. I have seen ZERO reason to want Gallo playing the 4 and not the 3. He is not a banger. He's not Keith Van Horn.

Lee's last 8 games he averaged 22/11 his last 8 games playing next to Barron who average 12/11. I fail to see how Lee's 16 games a year ago w/ Zach should hold more relevence. What did Lee average w/ Zach?

It doesnt matter. Walsh has a better brain than letting a player as good as Lee walk for junk like Whiteside or Turaf

Agreed. If the knicks dnt pick up lee/bosh/amare/ok4 but got some uproven rookie prospect instead tha would be a huge failure because if there's anything we need it's a strong front court player. that's something you just can't win without.