Posted by Nalod:

TMS, there was another thread where sterotypes were discussed and you mentioned that asian sterotyping is as offensive any any.

TMS, I was profiled for being out of place which is why the cop became curious about me. Nate was profiled as stupid for not wearing his belt. Thats about it.

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Racial profiling was brought up when Briggs brought it up. He simply said "Nate might have been a victim of racial profiling."

Can't believe it escelated into this blood battle.

maybe u can answer my question for me since Nalod doesn't seem to have an answer... what are u guys referring to when you bring up the word "profiling" if it doesn't have any race intonations at all?

I just e-mailed a cop buddy of mine out of curiosity. He's a Hartford cop(white). Here is a summary of our conversation(this is just a summary I cut out most of the conversation, but I thought it was interesting and he doesn't pull punches. Been friends with him since birth by the way. He was one of maybe 20 white kids in high school)

Bip: What is profiling to you

Cop friend: Anything that reminds me of the last 30 dudes that committed some ridiculous crime

Bip: Does that include race

Cop friend: Yup

Bip: What do you mean?

Cop Friend: My area is 90% black and 10% hispanic. White dude shows up, his asse is getting pulled over. Hah, didn't think I'd say white dude, but that's true. I know everyone in my area so I don't pull over too many brothers for Minimal cause. If I do, trust me I got a reason and history on my side. I already know who the a-holes are. When I was new, I pulled over dudes that were driving expensive cars in the projects. I know they are either dealing or buying. You come to my hood and tell me if there is any other reason to be there. Mother f'n black dude in Frog Hollow, driving an expensive car either took a wrong turn or he's dealing. Either way, don't matter, cops are watching you. The laws just got more stringent, keep your hands at 10 and 2, put away your cell phone, check your tailights. Don't slip up! Sorry if you don't like this. I know things are different in your house on the hill :). By the way if they were dealing I want to get to know them. What better way than to get to know them at the end of my boot

Bip: end of your boot? you get physical or are you trying to act like a tough guy?

Cop Friend: Streets ain't no joke, that's all I'm saying

Bip: You get rough with people just to get to know them? I don't get it.

Cop Friend: don't believe all that you see on tv. Not a lot of "innocent guys" getting roughed up. We do make some mistakes, don't want to do it, but allow me to say again, "streets ain't no joke". Nobody out there for the joy of roughing up black folk. Maybe there are some I don't know about, but all the cats I work with would kill to be able to clean up the streets for the rest of good people that are working hard trying to make ends meet. Why else would we be out there? All the nonsense you hear is because every precint has a horrible PR team :). How many cops you see get shot and wounded and killed before you realize we are there to help the majority not harrass innocent people because we power hungry. F Yall! Where I work, you are guilty until you can tell me why you got 6 guys in smoke filled BMW at 3 in the morning in Frog Hollow. I know the good people ain't doing that, they are at home asleep, I'm watching you, and if you slip up, whoop, whoop. Los Solidos is around the corner, if it's a group of hispanics you don't have to slip up. You most likely are getting pulled. If something don't look right and I got to come up with a reason to pull you over to keep the peace, trust me I got history on my side.

Cop Friend: Back to the question, profiling ain't just about race, like I said it's anything that reminds me of the last 30 dudes I met that are making life miserable for the rest. But let's not lie, race is the majority of it.

Bip: Be honest you profile blacks

Cop friend: Straight up? yeah.

Bip: Do you think that's fair? I'm driving down the street out in Glastonbury and I get pulled over for no reason should I be upset

Cop friend: I work in the hood so that shiot is different. Those cops in the suburbs are looking for something to do. They are bored, see a black guy and it reminds them of what they saw on the news, not what actually goes on in their neighborhoods. White boys are committing the crimes in their neighborhoods. They should be profiling whites, but they are not real cops anyway.

Bip: You admit that you profile but you are calling them fake cops because they profile?

Cop friend: Yeah. If you worked where I work, your black asse would be doing it too.

Wow. That was deep. Thanks for sharing Bip.

The only problem I have is that a black dude might be in the hood for more reasons than a wrong turn or to buy or sell drugs. You could be picking up some hood rat, which while not wise is not illegal (unless you are paying her). You could be buying food from a late night spot (I go to the hood late at night all the time to grab some food from the soul food restaraunt). You could be going to visit family or friends. Bottomline is that you cannot make the generalizations that he is making. And cops wonder why black people always feel they are harassing them.

Posted by martin:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by martin:

Here's how I took it: It's a boring story. It's about a dude getting pulled over. It's about a dude being nice and the cop being nice back. Nalod suggested that cooler heads prevailed, and if he or the cop had burst out in anger for whatever reason, things may have turned out differently. No more no less.

That's all.

cooler heads in a traffic stop prevail... i don't think i ever argued that point & if that's the point of Nalod's thread & there was no other definitions to be taken out of it, fine... i got no problem w/that... cooler heads when you're getting handcuffed & arrested for breaking into your own home w/all the other circumstances surrounding the Gates' case is quite another matter... Nalod didn't mention Gates, you're right... maybe it was my mistake to assume he was drawing a correlation there... but other posters did chime in on that thread & pointed out the correlation was legitimate, & that i don't agree with.

anyway, u get my point & now i think i get yours.

here's the caveat though, and I would submit that I didn't/can't follow the exact details and sequence of what happened with the whole Gates thing, but if both Gates and the officers both had had cooler heads about them, that whole incident would have gone pretty much the same as had Nalod's... much ado about nothing.

Posted by TMS:

so because Gates was a Harvard professor specializing in race relations he should know better than to be angry when falsely arrested for breaking into his own home based on nothing much more than a description that a black man was breaking into it from someone who called it into 911? care to explain your reasoning behind that logic? cuz to me, i don't care what your profession is or what your educational background, getting arrested in your own home while being racially profiled seems like something that would piss me off if i were in the same situation, i dunno about u.

first off, why did the cop automatically assume that Gates was the perpetrator of the crime & not the home owner? was he dressed like he was trying to rob the place? from the police photograph i saw he was wearing a polo shirt of some kind, i think it was red with stripes, & a pair of casual jeans & sneakers from off the top of my head, & he was wearing glasses & not a scraggly looking character at all... yeah, that looks a lot like a guy trying to break into somebody's house to rob it to me. *rolling eyes*



i guess him being black means he had to have been in that neighborhood to rob the place, since no way he could have been able to afford to live there? or maybe it's common practice for burglars to dress in such attire when robbing other people's homes? maybe someone can enlighten me on what burglars usually wear so we can settle this once & for all... personally if i were robbing some place i wouldn't be dressed like that & i'd at least bring some tools w/me to do the job, i can tell u that much.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-20-2009 10:07 PM]

Posted by Bippity10:

Where are you guys getting that Crowley assumed that Gates was a criminal? He was called out to the house because a neighbor reported a break-in. He went to the house. He has no idea who anyone is. He didn't throw anyone on the ground or come in guns blazing. He simply asked for ID like he is supposed to. Gates reaction to this was poor. Crowley's reaction to Gate's reaction was even worse. To me this wasn't about race. This was about 2 guys that are supposed to be respected members of our society acting like 2 year olds.

i don’t think we even know this for sure. crowley and/or his officers could have handled it poorly from the beginning, been antagonistic and provoked the whole escalation. or not. but i haven’t ever seen anything that led me to conclude that gates' bad reaction was definitively the instigating factor as opposed to the cops'.

Posted by Nalod:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by Bippity10:

Where are you guys getting that Crowley assumed that Gates was a criminal? He was called out to the house because a neighbor reported a break-in. He went to the house. He has no idea who anyone is. He didn't throw anyone on the ground or come in guns blazing. He simply asked for ID like he is supposed to. Gates reaction to this was poor. Crowley's reaction to Gate's reaction was even worse. To me this wasn't about race. This was about 2 guys that are supposed to be respected members of our society acting like 2 year olds.

i don’t think we even know this for sure. crowley and/or his officers could have handled it poorly from the beginning, been antagonistic and provoked the whole escalation. or not. but i haven’t ever seen anything that led me to conclude that gates' bad reaction was definitively the instigating factor as opposed to the cops'.

Crowley was not the only cop there. They are all over the place. Crowley had huddled with the officers their and they decided to arrest him. Crowley was not the only cop, and I thought there were black cops there also.

I don't think Gates was "difinitevely" the instigater, but its just logic given the events. The true difinitive moment is when Gates lost it. Who instigated it we don't know. A man should not have to prove his innocence in his own home, and Gates being Gates (A man of studious historical knowledge) and tired is toxic to the situation. Gates reacts to what he thinks is going on. Crowley does not have the full knowledge of who Gates is, and he is certanly not acting like any Harvard professor he ever met!

Simply it appears that two wrongs don't make a right. Gates might very well been within his rights to be an Arse hole, and Crowley and the other officers on the scene were within their rights to arrest him.

And we have the clarity of hindsight to debate this........

i want it noted that nalod's spelling of definitive with an i was the initial provoking act in this exchange.

how do you know that gates didn’t "lose it" because he was first being antagonized by the police, including being denied the name and badge number of a particular officer? why couldn’t that have just as easily been what set the whole ball in motion?

and why do you conclude that "officers on the scene were within their rights to arrest him?” if he was requested to step outside in order to be given the requested officer's name and badge #, then told thanks for complying you’re now under arrest for leaving your home, how were they within their rights?

Posted by martin:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by Nalod:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by Bippity10:

Where are you guys getting that Crowley assumed that Gates was a criminal? He was called out to the house because a neighbor reported a break-in. He went to the house. He has no idea who anyone is. He didn't throw anyone on the ground or come in guns blazing. He simply asked for ID like he is supposed to. Gates reaction to this was poor. Crowley's reaction to Gate's reaction was even worse. To me this wasn't about race. This was about 2 guys that are supposed to be respected members of our society acting like 2 year olds.

i don’t think we even know this for sure. crowley and/or his officers could have handled it poorly from the beginning, been antagonistic and provoked the whole escalation. or not. but i haven’t ever seen anything that led me to conclude that gates' bad reaction was definitively the instigating factor as opposed to the cops'.

Crowley was not the only cop there. They are all over the place. Crowley had huddled with the officers their and they decided to arrest him. Crowley was not the only cop, and I thought there were black cops there also.

I don't think Gates was "difinitevely" the instigater, but its just logic given the events. The true difinitive moment is when Gates lost it. Who instigated it we don't know. A man should not have to prove his innocence in his own home, and Gates being Gates (A man of studious historical knowledge) and tired is toxic to the situation. Gates reacts to what he thinks is going on. Crowley does not have the full knowledge of who Gates is, and he is certanly not acting like any Harvard professor he ever met!

Simply it appears that two wrongs don't make a right. Gates might very well been within his rights to be an Arse hole, and Crowley and the other officers on the scene were within their rights to arrest him.

And we have the clarity of hindsight to debate this........

i want it noted that nalod's spelling of definitive with an i was the initial provoking act in this exchange.

how do you know that gates didn’t "lose it" because he was first being antagonized by the police, including being denied the name and badge number of a particular officer? why couldn’t that have just as easily been what set the whole ball in motion?

and why do you conclude that "officers on the scene were within their rights to arrest him?” if he was requested to step outside in order to be given the requested officer's name and badge #, then told thanks for complying you’re now under arrest for leaving your home, how were they within their rights?

Has there been an accounting of what happened - up to a certain point - that both Crowley and Gates agreed upon? Can someone help me with that?

Martin you are actually correct in your initial response to me, when I jumped to conclusions that Gates initial reaction was poor. YOu are right that the officers could have been the initial "bad guys". Which leads me to my overall point that everyone ignores. Nobody was there. We have no idea what happened. We piece together media reports and jump to conclusions based on our own live experiences and beliefs. All of America and even the president seems to have done this. Out of minimal information some of us have concluded that Gates is a race baiter. Some of us have concluded that Crowley is a racist. Some of us have concluded that the cops were heavy handed. Some of us have concluded that Gates deserved to be arrested for not keeping his mouth shut. Do we base these conclusions on reality? No we base it on incomplete information and then our own vision of what reality is.