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Bippity10
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7/21/2009  11:46 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

So what your saying is making a trade for an all star would be a bad one no matter what..that's the confidence you have in walsh..IT's problem was he gave up to much..then u see paul get traded for kwame...and wonder why we can't get a deal done like that..

The funny thing about how gms think..Eisley, shannon,and spoon were all back ups who came from a winning enviroment..both eisley and shannon were 2 years remove from the finals, and spoon had been through the trenches with the heat, They were just grossly overpaid and became complete loser in a knick uni.Then you see walsh and mike do the same think with cap freindly contracts and get the same results and he's the best gm ever. Now expiring contracts can be a good asset especially in this economy, but you got utilize them...we can wait let the contracts fall of the books watch the supers stars and all stars re up with there own, then be force sign a few avg players in whuch we already have..-s that how it works.

So Baron davis is the answer???

They are hoarding expirings for a reason. They plan on using them. But they do not want to use them for guys that will not be "franchise guys" and lose the chance at the big free-agent class. If Carmelo or Bosh or someone like that became available for expirings I'm sure they would move. But for Baron Davis? why not Richard Jefferson? I'm still not sure hwat this does for you except put you back over the cap with a pseudo star with a long contract.

I think management would rather whiff on Lebron and develop the young guys then begin to plaster the line-up with more overpaid vets. We've seen that movie before. I'm 100% on board with that, and I'm glad they aren't making these knee jerk moves because fans are jealous and really, weely, weely want to make the pwayoffs.

From experience aren't expirings more valuable later in the year then they are during the summer?

Who said Donnie was the greatest GM in the world? Anyone?
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McK1
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7/21/2009  11:49 AM
Posted by fishmike:



Thats not really true. Mostly it depends on what the Knicks do this offseason. Your assuming we sign a MLE player like Session

which by all indications we will
Posted by fishmike:



and CANT move JJ OR Eddie.

they are still on the team
Posted by fishmike:


Even if Walsh cant move Eddie or JJ (he will move one for expirings, bet your buck on that he will)

how?
Posted by fishmike:


we can still sign a max FA by letting Nate and Lee walk, AND use the MLE this year. We have crunched the #s a 100 times. The cash is there.

I agree.
Posted by fishmike:




So whats your point? Lebron says "I want to play in NY." And we say sorry... we really really dont want to renounce Lee and Nate.

IMO Lebron is not coming to play with the remaining skeleton of the roster.
Posted by fishmike:


Or worse yet... we CANT sign him because he have the PG role filled for the next 3 years with Baron Davis.

If Walsh adds Baron, renounces Lee and Nate and doesn't use the MLE NY would be at about 41 mil. NY still would have buying power. It may not get you Wade or Lebron but I don't believe the skeleton roster will either


Now if Walsh renounces Lee and Nate, and in your fantasy scenario moves JJ or Curry for an expiring, NY would be at either 35 mil or 30 mil and still be able to sign a max FA and would have more selling power with Baron as a 2nd star in place versus...

Posted by fishmike:



Isiah's plan was this. Get the best talented veterans to win now regardless of cost of length of contract. I'm ready to see what the next guy has

Isiah's plan failed because of execution, not theory.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  11:52 AM
Bottom line we loved the Isiah splash. We miss that.

Fans want Chris Duhon being interviewed saying things like "we got a left-handed southpaw. You’re thinking he's shooting right, but he's really shooting left, and you can't beat that. I expect we play better than what we played last year. It's a power move."

We want more of that. That way we can spend all summer imagining the possibilities. Talking trash to all our friends about how good we are. Then when yet another overpaid vet bombs we can blame it on the coach, tell the world how the game has past them by, hire someone else, make another similar move, talk about the possibilities, lose more games, repeat.......
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Markji
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7/21/2009  11:52 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by fishmike:


awesome... lets skip out on any chance of FAs next year and build our team around a 30 year PG with weight issues and health problems signed long term for massive money that shot 37% from the field last year. After all... fans to pay to see cap space, right Isiah?

signing a max FA all hinges on renouncing Nate and Lee. NY doesn't then they aren't signing anyone anyway

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 10:51 AM]
Thats not really true. Mostly it depends on what the Knicks do this offseason. Your assuming we sign a MLE player like Session, and CANT move JJ OR Eddie. Even if Walsh cant move Eddie or JJ (he will move one for expirings, bet your buck on that he will) we can still sign a max FA by letting Nate and Lee walk, AND use the MLE this year. We have crunched the #s a 100 times. The cash is there.

So whats your point? Lebron says "I want to play in NY." And we say sorry... we really really dont want to renounce Lee and Nate.

I'd like to add one more possibility to the whole cap space scenario regarding Lee and Nate:

Let's assume Walsh DOES re-sign both Lee and Nate to reasonable contracts this off-season. They can always be traded in the summer of 2010 to any of the many, multiple teams that will have cap space and would be able to absorb their contracts. Trade them for low first rounders or whatever. Voila.
Your insight went unheeded. That is a good idea - keeping them both and then trading them. Maximize their value and get something good in return.

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McK1
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7/21/2009  11:55 AM
Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/21/2009  11:57 AM
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"

The whole argument is based on IF's. The assumption is that someone is willing to accept our expirings in return for an all-star. And this is why we are angry at Walsh. This is our assumption.
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McK1
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7/21/2009  12:01 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"

The whole argument is based on IF's. The assumption is that someone is willing to accept our expirings in return for an all-star. And this is why we are angry at Walsh. This is our assumption.

That is not why I am angry at Walsh.

Do I think he should've tried the Clips? Yes.



My assumption about gettig a Baron for expirings is nowhere near as big as the assumption Lebron Wade or any other superstar up for a raise will leave 20-30 mil on the table to come here and play with a lottery team

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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7/21/2009  12:15 PM
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"
what are you offering? IF Baron decides to show up in shape? IF the step he's lost because of injuries and being 30 isnt the reason he's FG% was a career low. IF he can play in MDA's system. He's a halfcourt guy. Just as many IFs.

Curry 11.2
JJ 6.8
Gallo 3.3
Hill 2.6
Chandler 2.1
Douglas 1
Davis 13
Sessions 6

=$46mm

that doesnt include the roster spots that hold $

MK.. the #s dont add up. Davis kills your shot at a MAX player next offseason. Davis doesnt even compare to the 2nd tier guys like Dirk or Joe Johnson.

No thanks.

In fact, I would rather have Lee and Nate at 25 back at $8.5 and $4mm respectively than Baron with all his baggage at 30. We can spend the money better than BDiddy.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bitty41
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7/21/2009  12:19 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

at the time, many knicks fans thought dumping zach and crawford for expirings were a great move by walsh and that not any gm could've done that. he was able to move long term deals for basically nothing but cap space. d'antoni was able to pump up their stats enough to make them desireable. at the time of the deals, the knicks were 6-5.

from that point on, zach went to la la land and played like he always does. the team played like crap. crawford went to golden state and then quickly got benched and told he wasn't going to play and be dealt.

this offseason, both zach and crawford were dealt again for expiring deals.

so...where am i going? with the knicks having a 6-5 record, and both zach AND crawford playing well, it's not unreasonable to assume the knicks would be in the playoff hunt the rest of the way.

so two things could have happened last season if walsh wasn't so knee jerk (ala isiah), knicks could've made the postseason. what does that achieve? gets their fans pumped and probably inflates the value of the franchise in the eyes of other players. also, moving zach and crawford may have actually yielded not only expiring deals but also something of value in return. or they coudl've played the same and still could've dumped both for expirings.

yes it's hindsight, but i'm not paid $3 mil a year to not deal with hindsight but deal with the franchise and progressively thinking about it. walsh was no more knee jerk that isiah in making those deals.

i understand knicks fans are always looking for the best, and it's human nature to defend something you want to believe in. but you don't have to. there's no need to go balls to the wall for walsh b/c he hasn't done anything tangible yet. this season is basically just another wasted season for the knicks. nothing really to look forward to other than hoping gallo can play a full season.

i disagree with bitty when she says if the team doesn't win, it's not a success. my view on success is a gm that's willing to put a team together that he feels CAN win. wizards are an example...some players are hurt, roster is not perfect but you can't blame him for not putting a talented team on the floor that could win alot of games if they stay healthy. these past two seasons, any attempt to win has been thrown out the window by walsh & co. that's why i don't get the full support he's getting. he sold the fans on a *savior* in 2010. so i guess y'all have to wait till then...but since i've moved on and can look at this team w/o any attachments, i don't agree with it. when you see dumars & colangelo not waiting for 2010 and actually take advantage of the current economic situation, it kind of makes you re-think this team's strategy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-20-2009 6:14 PM]


DJ,

I don't actually disagree with your last paragraph because shyt does happen. If a GM creates a team that he believes can win but injuries, guys don't mesh well, coach screw-ups. These things happen and it is not always the GMs fault. My biggest issue is with the notion that the GM shouldn't even attempt to make the team better until certain free-agents are available.

Everyone has a job to do within an organization.

Owner: keep the money flowing

GM: Put together a good product

Coach: Guide the product into success

Players: Perform to their collective and individual expectations

I think D'Antoni can only do so much with what Walsh has given him to work with thus far and the players are just a mismatch group of players that have some talent but not nearly enough to get it done on a nightly basis.

Walsh is the one I have the biggest issue. If your going to rebuild then don't sign a coach like D'Antoni to a 10 million dollar contract. Don't bring in guys like Harrington, Hughes, Darko, allow your young players to develop at their true positions.

If Walsh is trying to bring in big-name free-agents do it the proper way. Put together a team that's missing one or two key pieces. If are truly trying to turn this franchise over-night next summer your rebuilding should be damn near completed.
McK1
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7/21/2009  12:22 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"
what are you offering? IF Baron decides to show up in shape? IF the step he's lost because of injuries and being 30 isnt the reason he's FG% was a career low. IF he can play in MDA's system. He's a halfcourt guy. Just as many IFs.

Curry 11.2
JJ 6.8
Gallo 3.3
Hill 2.6
Chandler 2.1
Douglas 1
Davis 13
Sessions 6

=$46mm

that doesnt include the roster spots that hold $

MK.. the #s dont add up. Davis kills your shot at a MAX player next offseason. Davis doesnt even compare to the 2nd tier guys like Dirk or Joe Johnson.

No thanks.

In fact, I would rather have Lee and Nate at 25 back at $8.5 and $4mm respectively than Baron with all his baggage at 30. We can spend the money better than BDiddy.

Do you really believe Dallas would've brought back Kidd and traded for Marion if Dirk was leaving?

Same with Joe in Atlanta, they wouldn't have extended Bibby. Joe Johnson wants his money and he wants to be Batman while getting it and in Atlanta he gets both.

If you traded for Baron there is no need to get Sessions which means there is no reason to use the mid which brings the cap number back down to 40-41 mil in this scenario which increases NY's buying power (9-15 mil depending on the cap) for the guys who will in reality be willing to take less money to come here and be "famous"
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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7/21/2009  12:28 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"

The whole argument is based on IF's. The assumption is that someone is willing to accept our expirings in return for an all-star. And this is why we are angry at Walsh. This is our assumption.

That is not why I am angry at Walsh.

Do I think he should've tried the Clips? Yes.



My assumption about gettig a Baron for expirings is nowhere near as big as the assumption Lebron Wade or any other superstar up for a raise will leave 20-30 mil on the table to come here and play with a lottery team
the 20-30mm they leave on the table is for the 6th year. The money is there. And your assuming signing a FA is the only way you can use the cap space. We can take on salary as well. when the Hornets need to Chris Paul and James Posey because they are going to go out of business otherwise we can take on that salary. You have options. Lots of them. If you bring in Davis and he starts to break down (which is already happening) your stuck with him for years.

Most of the IFs you mentioned DW has been able to accomplish in the past. He's gotten rid of undesirable contracts. The Knicks won 9 more games while downgrading talent. They have a coach a lot of players are outspoken about wanting to play for... let it play out. Quick money fixes arent going to work with this group.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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7/21/2009  12:31 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by McK1:

Martin's "insight" was just another in a long line of big "IF's"
what are you offering? IF Baron decides to show up in shape? IF the step he's lost because of injuries and being 30 isnt the reason he's FG% was a career low. IF he can play in MDA's system. He's a halfcourt guy. Just as many IFs.

Curry 11.2
JJ 6.8
Gallo 3.3
Hill 2.6
Chandler 2.1
Douglas 1
Davis 13
Sessions 6

=$46mm

that doesnt include the roster spots that hold $

MK.. the #s dont add up. Davis kills your shot at a MAX player next offseason. Davis doesnt even compare to the 2nd tier guys like Dirk or Joe Johnson.

No thanks.

In fact, I would rather have Lee and Nate at 25 back at $8.5 and $4mm respectively than Baron with all his baggage at 30. We can spend the money better than BDiddy.

Do you really believe Dallas would've brought back Kidd and traded for Marion if Dirk was leaving?

Same with Joe in Atlanta, they wouldn't have extended Bibby. Joe Johnson wants his money and he wants to be Batman while getting it and in Atlanta he gets both.

If you traded for Baron there is no need to get Sessions which means there is no reason to use the mid which brings the cap number back down to 40-41 mil in this scenario which increases NY's buying power (9-15 mil depending on the cap) for the guys who will in reality be willing to take less money to come here and be "famous"
if you traded for Baron you would need Sessions because Baron is due to miss 30 games next year and shoot 35%.

Hey.. we disagree. I am glad DW is going to be patient. If its to a fault so be it. The guy has a track record worth being patient for.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Paladin55
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7/21/2009  12:35 PM
For what it is worth:

http://twitter.com/AndrewMarchand

His informants are telling him that the Bucks will not match the Knicks if they make an offer to Sessions.

Don't want to get too excited because we have already gone through similar "high expectations" rumors this summer, but Sessions would be a major coup for the Knicks if he falls into their hands.


(sorry if this has already been linked)


[Edited by - Paladin55 on 07-21-2009 12:40 PM]
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BasketballJones
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7/21/2009  12:44 PM
Posted by Paladin55:

For what it is worth:

http://twitter.com/AndrewMarchand

His informants are telling him that the Bucks will not match the Knicks if they make an offer to Sessions.

Don't want to get too excited because we have already gone through similar "high expectations" rumors this summer, but Sessions would be a major coup for the Knicks if he falls into their hands.


(sorry if this has already been linked)


[Edited by - Paladin55 on 07-21-2009 12:40 PM]

I like Sessions, but if he becomes a Knick, I will instantly notice all his flaws and begin disliking him. I am looking forward to having a new Knick to dislike, so I hope he gets signed.
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knicks1248
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7/21/2009  12:48 PM
Bitty I'm with ya..fish its become painfully obvious that despite the love MDA recieves from just about the entire olympic team, none (so far) seem to be willing to sart over in ny despite money fame and glory, not when a championship roster is as far fetch as it is for us.
ES
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7/21/2009  12:48 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Paladin55:

For what it is worth:

http://twitter.com/AndrewMarchand

His informants are telling him that the Bucks will not match the Knicks if they make an offer to Sessions.

Don't want to get too excited because we have already gone through similar "high expectations" rumors this summer, but Sessions would be a major coup for the Knicks if he falls into their hands.


(sorry if this has already been linked)


[Edited by - Paladin55 on 07-21-2009 12:40 PM]

I like Sessions, but if he becomes a Knick, I will instantly notice all his flaws and begin disliking him. I am looking forward to having a new Knick to dislike, so I hope he gets signed.

LOL!
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nyk4ever
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7/21/2009  12:52 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Bitty I'm with ya..fish its become painfully obvious that despite the love MDA recieves from just about the entire olympic team, none (so far) seem to be willing to sart over in ny despite money fame and glory, not when a championship roster is as far fetch as it is for us.

Who have the Knicks had the opportunity to sign from the Olympic team? Jason Kidd? Who happens to be 37 years old and the team he was already with is a title contender? Yeah, D'Antoni should be embarrassed.
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newyorknewyork
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7/21/2009  1:03 PM
I'm not surprised that there are people not happy about the way Walsh has been doing things. The phrase "You can't please everybody" holds true.

There is no right or wrong philosophy to building a team. It all comes down to the execution and decisions made. Neither Layden or Isiah Thomas philosophy on building teams weren't wrong, there execution was poor though as they constantly overpaid.

I can't complain about Walsh targeting a free agent yr with Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Johnson all free agents and trying to go after 2 of them. They are worth sacrificing for, and if it were to work out he is a genius. If it doesn't work out we are left with 4 hopefully quality prospects and a boat load of cash. And all we sacrificed were a first rd exit out of the playoffs or 2. Even if we weren't going for cap space in 2010 giving Lee 10mil a yr isn't worth it. Losing Lee wouldn't be a 2010 casualty but an overall disagreement in worth.

Walsh also didn't only trade Randolph & Crawford for cap space, he traded them for players he felt would fit MDA style and would help the team maintain competitiveness while also achieving cap space. Mobley ended up not playing for us so we lost out on his production which trade wise hurt a lot. I also don't believe it was Knee Jerk reaction for the fact that he was looking to trade them all off-season and didn't give up our draft pick in order to unload Randolph. Plus the fact that most people were upset with Walsh for taking his time and seeing what he got when he first got there rather them coming in guns blazing and unloading everyone.

Walsh also thought Marbury was going to play and wasn't on the same page as MDA but allowed MDA to do his thing.

Going after guys like Baron Davis can always happen, Randolph, Crawford etc.. could always happen after 2010 after we take shots at the Superstars.

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newyorknewyork
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7/21/2009  1:09 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Bitty I'm with ya..fish its become painfully obvious that despite the love MDA recieves from just about the entire olympic team, none (so far) seem to be willing to sart over in ny despite money fame and glory, not when a championship roster is as far fetch as it is for us.

Someone will bite on the cash & New York, worst case scenario we could always make a trade with our available money and take back salary without matching. There are so many available options when you have 20+ mil available in salary cap space.

The worst case scenario for going after Lebron & Wade etc would be ending up with lower level guys which some of you guys are begging to get now. While the best possible senario is we end up with a Lebron James and challenge for the title for the next 12yrs.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
fishmike
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7/21/2009  1:11 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Bitty I'm with ya..fish its become painfully obvious that despite the love MDA recieves from just about the entire olympic team, none (so far) seem to be willing to sart over in ny despite money fame and glory, not when a championship roster is as far fetch as it is for us.
really? One year offers being turned down by Grant Hill and Jason Kidd means no FAs will want to have a career here? If thats not overreacting what is?

Whats painfully obvious is Walsh's plan.

Hire a winning coach
Clear the roster of Isiah's bloated contracts
Fill the roster with guys with good contracts that fit into the coach's style of play
Have cap space to sign a FA in the 2010 offseason
Use draft and summer league to find cheap talent with upside

You dont have to like it but its a plan with a lot of options and flexibility to succeed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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