Childs2Dudley wrote:

oohah wrote:

subzero0 wrote:-Crawford
-Randolph

and we are supposed to be attracting players to New York?? We are going to be the Clippers of the east. Nobody is going to want to play on this team.

Bookmark this topic and wait until 2010, because after the Knicks are able to only sign the bottom feeders of that years free agent class we are going to be stuck in the draft upgrade cycle.

And no thats not a good thing because the kids we draft are going to want to go away from New York.

The trick is to keep the team competitive to attract talent.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for getting under the cap, but getting Al Harrington and losing Randolph for whomever right now is the wrong way to go.

Dear people who jumped on subzero0 who saw what was going to happen and said so...now is a good time to apologize to him. He was right and you were wrong. Respect to subzero0 who had the guts to speak up and say what he is thinking even if the opinion is not popular.

Respect also to Pharezone, Holfresh and other posters who don't run with the herd and had the courage to speak up and write the truth of what they saw was real and not fantasy. The Knicks have been the same old drama and garbage the past 2 years - the only difference is they had cap space.

oohah

He was right about keeping Crawford and Randolph?

No he wasn't.

Childs2Dudley

Actually if you read my posts you would see that I thought moving Crawford and Randolph is a good idea if it was done to get draft picks. It is a dumb idea to move them for just cap space. If the right move isnt there, hold on to them until the move comes along or until their contracts expire. If these players are as bad as you think they are then they can sink our team in order to get us good draft picks. That was my whole point.

nixluva wrote:Dude said no one would come here. We actually didn't get shutout! We landed Amare and we still have plenty of cap space. We'll see what other players DW adds. This worked out OK after the letdown of no 2nd max player, but really there were only 2 guys we targeted after Amare, Bron or Wade and they decided to team up. So the other 4 top competitors didnt get one of them either. We did well to land a piece with room for another stud. How did we fail when it's not over yet?

No, actually I believed we would probably be able to get someone, maybe no one but probably someone. The problem was that who ever we would get would not be enough to get us to a championship win. This is the worst possible situation because we will be too good to get a good draft position and just bad enough to lose in the playoffs every year. This will turn us into perennial playoff losers. It will take about a decade to correct this mistake the knicks have made.

4949 wrote:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by GKFv2:

Anything less than LeBron is failure? Really? Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, whoever wouldn't be better than you boys Randolph and Crawford? Get back to reality. You don;t build a team around those losers. I don't care if we sign nobody from now till 2050. A deal like this gives the team more room to operate with and once you're under the cap anything can happen. LeBron James is not the only prize of 2010. If you care so much about Randolph and Crawford, go follow their teams on the West Coast because them and their history of losing with the Knicks will not be missed.

Who said anything about building around Zach and Crawford? Actually read my post and then comment, that is how this whole forum thing works.

subzero, u said if we don't get Lebron any alternative would not be acceptable... is that right or am i misquoting u here?

So let me put this in big black and white, we are not going to get LeBron. Do you hear that MS, we are not going to be able to get Lebron (I know your reading this.) and anyone less is a failure.

i couldn't disagree w/u more... whether we get Lebron or not, this was the correct move to make... we now have so many options available to us that we didn't have before... Zach & Jamal weren't gonna lead this team anywhere... we needed to make a trade like this to open up other options in the coming years... now all that's left to do is dump Curry & to make sure we make good use of the draft pick this year.

If we dont get Lebron, how many of those options are going to enable us to win a championship? Our goal isnt to make the playoffs year after year only to be smacked down by better teams (ask D'Antoni and Walsh about this, they know it well). Our goal is to win a championship.

ur telling me that if we get Bosh & D Wade to come here & sign up a guy like Nash to the MLE (by then he might be open to a contract of that level to come play for a championship & for his former favorite head coach), & combine those guys w/a lottery talent in this year's draft like a Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, Demar Derozan, BJ Mullens, Brandon Jennings, etc., along w/the guys we already have on the roster like Chandler, Nate, Lee & Gallo, that we won't have a team that could seriously contend for an NBA title?

u just said it urself, our goal is to win a championship... why is getting rid of Zach & Jamal a bad thing when that's our supposed goal? those guys werent' gonna lead us to any titles, i think that much has been abundantly clear since they got here.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-21-2008 7:22 PM]

I gotta tell you guys, TMS makes the best case in what is to come. The key is 'our options are wide open'. If we get Lebron and another star and have something built around them, then we have a legit shot. And if we don't get Lebron, we most certainly can get about ten quality players, including two star like Bosh, Wade. And why should building a championship team stop there. There is another year after all this takes place to find even more talent.

You have to sign fair talent to minimum contracts, so they run out in time to get them. That is the way you protect the money. So far, in five signings, we can definately see that this is what Walsh is doing. Roberson, Duhon, Mobley, Harrington and Thomas all run out on time to the sweepstakes.

Some of us keep on explaining this over and over again and a again it just doesn't seem to get through some of these thick skulls.

Yes, I am glad you are here to explain all of this to me, my skull is way to thick. So please explain all of this to me again. You said if we dont get Lebron, which we didnt, then we can get about ten quality players, including stars like bosh, who we didnt get and Wade who we didnt get either by the way. So which players are you talking about? Oh do you mean player? As in Amare? The only max power forward with no go to move and needs an all star point guard to feed him the ball, an all star point guard which we also dont have by the way. Please explain this to me 4949, I will take notes.

subzero0 wrote:

4949 wrote:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by GKFv2:

Anything less than LeBron is failure? Really? Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, whoever wouldn't be better than you boys Randolph and Crawford? Get back to reality. You don;t build a team around those losers. I don't care if we sign nobody from now till 2050. A deal like this gives the team more room to operate with and once you're under the cap anything can happen. LeBron James is not the only prize of 2010. If you care so much about Randolph and Crawford, go follow their teams on the West Coast because them and their history of losing with the Knicks will not be missed.

Who said anything about building around Zach and Crawford? Actually read my post and then comment, that is how this whole forum thing works.

subzero, u said if we don't get Lebron any alternative would not be acceptable... is that right or am i misquoting u here?

So let me put this in big black and white, we are not going to get LeBron. Do you hear that MS, we are not going to be able to get Lebron (I know your reading this.) and anyone less is a failure.

i couldn't disagree w/u more... whether we get Lebron or not, this was the correct move to make... we now have so many options available to us that we didn't have before... Zach & Jamal weren't gonna lead this team anywhere... we needed to make a trade like this to open up other options in the coming years... now all that's left to do is dump Curry & to make sure we make good use of the draft pick this year.

If we dont get Lebron, how many of those options are going to enable us to win a championship? Our goal isnt to make the playoffs year after year only to be smacked down by better teams (ask D'Antoni and Walsh about this, they know it well). Our goal is to win a championship.

ur telling me that if we get Bosh & D Wade to come here & sign up a guy like Nash to the MLE (by then he might be open to a contract of that level to come play for a championship & for his former favorite head coach), & combine those guys w/a lottery talent in this year's draft like a Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, Demar Derozan, BJ Mullens, Brandon Jennings, etc., along w/the guys we already have on the roster like Chandler, Nate, Lee & Gallo, that we won't have a team that could seriously contend for an NBA title?

u just said it urself, our goal is to win a championship... why is getting rid of Zach & Jamal a bad thing when that's our supposed goal? those guys werent' gonna lead us to any titles, i think that much has been abundantly clear since they got here.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-21-2008 7:22 PM]

I gotta tell you guys, TMS makes the best case in what is to come. The key is 'our options are wide open'. If we get Lebron and another star and have something built around them, then we have a legit shot. And if we don't get Lebron, we most certainly can get about ten quality players, including two star like Bosh, Wade. And why should building a championship team stop there. There is another year after all this takes place to find even more talent.

You have to sign fair talent to minimum contracts, so they run out in time to get them. That is the way you protect the money. So far, in five signings, we can definately see that this is what Walsh is doing. Roberson, Duhon, Mobley, Harrington and Thomas all run out on time to the sweepstakes.

Some of us keep on explaining this over and over again and a again it just doesn't seem to get through some of these thick skulls.

Yes, I am glad you are here to explain all of this to me, my skull is way to thick. So please explain all of this to me again. You said if we dont get Lebron, which we didnt, then we can get about ten quality players, including stars like bosh, who we didnt get and Wade who we didnt get either by the way. So which players are you talking about? Oh do you mean player? As in Amare? The only max power forward with no go to move and needs an all star point guard to feed him the ball, an all star point guard which we also dont have by the way. Please explain this to me 4949, I will take notes.

The downside? I'm still not seeing it. Tell me again what we lost? A top 5 protected 2012 pick?

It was a good plan and is STILL a good plan.

This team is being built the right way right before our eyes. We have a 5 time all star athletic frontcourt player (albeit and expensive one). DW is putting hig quality young talent around him. Turiaf is a good role player for defense and shot blocking and hustle, but Gallo 6'10 and Randolph 6'11 are long althetic skilled frontcourt players with tremendous upside and are both under 21. Chandler and Azubuke are solid rotation role players at the least. Both can play 2 positions and are also super athletic and young as well.

We need some guards. Douglas is good but the drafted guys are non factors until they show NBA caliber skills.

Either way we are building right. Size and skill and youth and versatility. Also with defensive 2-way players.

We are short one pick in 2012, but we have also seen with Douglas and Jerome Jordan that we will buy picks for prospects we like.

btw, anyone who thinks people are flashing the I Told You So card now are the same people who would be killing anyone who ever doubted this trade had Lebron actually signed here... don't even try & deny that wouldn't have been the case.

TMS wrote:getting rid of over $45M dollars worth of big contracts w/o having to give up any future assets or picks was a stroke of absolute genius on DW's part... anyone who criticizes the Jamal or Zach trades is just being short sighted & irrational if u ask me... that said, giving up a lottery selected rook, swap rights protected to 1 & a future 1st round pick is an awful lot to pay to free up $7M in cap space, especially when you don't land the player you were after to begin with... it's OK to be critical of a trade that you don't feel is in the best interests of your franchise.

btw, anyone who thinks people are flashing the I Told You So card now are the same people who would be killing anyone who ever doubted this trade had Lebron actually signed here... don't even try & deny that wouldn't have been the case.

The media had DW clearing Cap for LBJ and only LBJ, Walsh clear cap to have the Flex to sign two max or Multple players.

when we couldn't get reggie miller and had allan houston has a fall back plan, how did that work out.

LJ came to us with back problems and a 3 time allstar , and roughly the same age as amare, how did that work out

subzero0 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dude said no one would come here. We actually didn't get shutout! We landed Amare and we still have plenty of cap space. We'll see what other players DW adds. This worked out OK after the letdown of no 2nd max player, but really there were only 2 guys we targeted after Amare, Bron or Wade and they decided to team up. So the other 4 top competitors didnt get one of them either. We did well to land a piece with room for another stud. How did we fail when it's not over yet?

No, actually I believed we would probably be able to get someone, maybe no one but probably someone. The problem was that who ever we would get would not be enough to get us to a championship win. This is the worst possible situation because we will be too good to get a good draft position and just bad enough to lose in the playoffs every year. This will turn us into perennial playoff losers. It will take about a decade to correct this mistake the knicks have made.

Hello Subzero0 from two years ago. Alot has transpired so let me bring you up to speed. That player that you said we would probably be able to get that summer turned out to be Amare Stoudemire and then later Carmelo Anthony. And surprise surprise they are not good enough to get us to a championship. Just as you feared we are in the worst possible situation now. We are too good to get a good draft position and just bad enough to lose in the playoffs every year. Perennial playoff losers. By my count we are in year 2 of our decade of suck. Why oh why the knicks dont scrap everything and start with the draft and then add max players to a young core is beyond me.

Oh and by the way Subzero0 of two years ago, the Dallas Mavericks won the championship last year. They started out with the draft by getting dirk nowitzky and surrounded him with championship level players, just like the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Heat, etc., built their teams over the past two decades to win a championship.

The Dolan of two years ago is still the same Dolan as today Subzero0. He gets fans to be excited about a mediocre team so that he can put butts in seats. He doesnt care about a championship. Maybe someday he will change, or atleast maybe someday the fans will notice... I will let you know next year.

subzero0 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I like Martin's recommendation of posting a link to the old thread. The I told you so threads get old.

I was just having some fun to lighten a pretty depressing night. A link next time is cool.

Then Martin needs to add an "expiration date" to threads so that they can't be resurrected.