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Paladin55
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9/10/2008  6:27 PM
Posted by kam77:


Your inference - that i would build a team around this cast of castoffs - was wildly off.

But if this trade is really dead, and not just "dormant," that would be the only inference you could make from your comment about rookies/2nd yr players. Who else would be playing for the Knicks??

I think a lot of people will be disappointed if there is no "changing of the guard" in terms of MPG allocation, as the season progresses. If there are no further trades made, I want Lee, Chandler, and Gallinari (in that order) to be getting the most minutes at the forward positions. I also want to see whether Nate can actually be successful in this system, and whether Curry can be successful in any system at this time.

Anything else means the season is a disappointment for me.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
AUTOADVERT
oohah
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9/10/2008  6:41 PM
I think showcasing is just a term we fans use. I'm not sure which Stackhouse trades you mean but stackhouse was a very good player and was traded for an even better one if you're talking about Rip Hamilton. I don't see what that has to do with showcasing. Are you saying he was showcased so that he could put up better stats and those better stats are the reason the GM traded him for Rip? There's a lot of assumptions in there.

Stackhouse was a player who put up very good numbers but won very little and had an history of injury who was traded twice for players who were better than he in Hamilton and Jamison.

You are correct that I am making assumptions, and that is why your asking me to supply you with examples where a player had his stats pumped up in order to increase trade value is very hard to prove or disprove.

But I want you to trust me on this: Showcasing does exist, and players are sometimes featured to increase their trade value. If you don't beleive me watch what will happen with Vince Carter this season.

I think it is possible for that to happen in the case of Randolph this year. You don't. I think we won't resolve these opposing positions. However, I think Walsh is more in my line of thinking or he would have traded Randolph for a second rounder already.
As to the Blazers trading Zach: We know that either no one offered anything for him or some team did and the Blazers decided to go with our really low offer because they love us and were in a generous mood. The former seems more plausible to me.

Or the Blazers wanted to part ways with Randolph quickly because they already had the pieces to go in a different direction so they traded fast rather than hold out for full value. In addition, they had a public relations reason for moving him quickly.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
TMS
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9/10/2008  6:53 PM
if we had made that Zach trade to Philly when we had the chance we would be so much better off right now... we coulda drafted JJ Hickson w/the #16 pick, which in turn woulda rendered D Lee completely expendable for us, & dumped Zach's longterm deal, effectively killing 3 birds w/1 stone... that woulda cleared up enough space on the cap to legitimately target a bigname FA in 2010, & given us a solid role player w/a very reasonable contract that could fill the gaps til Hickson matured in Reggie Evans... it would have also allowed Donnie Walsh to trade D Lee w/o any reservations to the impact it would have on the roster this season, perhaps dealing him for another draft pick or young PG during the offseason?

the roster we could have had right now would have given us way more flexibility cap wise going into 2010 & we'd still have our 1st rounder intact for '09 while probably having a better shot at a high draft position to boot:

C - Curry / LLE signing / Big Turd
PF - Evans / Hickson / Fishlips
SF - Chandler / Q Rich / Balkman
SG - Jamal / MLE signing (Sasha Vujacic?) / Mardy
PG - D Lee trade for prospect or draft pick / Nate

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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9/10/2008  7:43 PM
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by kam77:


Your inference - that i would build a team around this cast of castoffs - was wildly off.

But if this trade is really dead, and not just "dormant," that would be the only inference you could make from your comment about rookies/2nd yr players. Who else would be playing for the Knicks??

Just cuz I say that rookies generally don't get much burn, why do you assume I want to build the team around the other guys? Thats a quantumm leap. Not an inference.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  8:20 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

no matter what the trade resulted in for the Lakers, the Grizzlies needed to make the deal that benefits them... what better trades were out there for them to make at the time? do u think a trade of Pau for someone like Shawn Marion woulda benefitted them so much more? i personally don't see it... i think the trade that benefits them the most is exactly the one they ended up making... a team that's in rebuild mode has no need for another aging vet making big dollars, but they do have a big need for draft picks, young prospects & cap space... what happens w/the Lakers from here on out should not be their concern in the least bit... they need to be focusing on how to best utilize those picks & cap space so they can maximize the value they got outta that deal... i think they made the right move & have always thought so.

to be honest, i really have zero idea why they would even be interested in making this deal for Zach after all that... i mean he's not an old vet but man, does he have a whole lotta luggage... i can't blame them 1 bit for asking for another pick to take on that albatross.
If you ran Memphis, would you do the deal if you were getting back a lottery protected 1st round pick or would you just stay away from Zach?

if i ran Memphis i would have absolutely zero interest in a player like Zach Randolph, i don't care if the Knicks would even give me a 1st rounder to take him off their hands... i'd be focusing on accumulating more draft picks & cap space & targetting a legitimate rebuilding plan making sure my talent scouting is on point & i don't sacrifice that plan for a player i absolutely know i can't win with.
Wow, we think alike when it doesn't involve NY teams!

there wasn't much different in our thinking when it involved the rebuild plan for last offseason for the Yanks either, we both pretty much wanted the same players... i just understood why Cash didn't pull the trigger on some of the moves while you didn't.

I understood exactly why he didn't. I just couldn't have disagreed more with the decision.
Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  8:22 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

no matter what the trade resulted in for the Lakers, the Grizzlies needed to make the deal that benefits them... what better trades were out there for them to make at the time? do u think a trade of Pau for someone like Shawn Marion woulda benefitted them so much more? i personally don't see it... i think the trade that benefits them the most is exactly the one they ended up making... a team that's in rebuild mode has no need for another aging vet making big dollars, but they do have a big need for draft picks, young prospects & cap space... what happens w/the Lakers from here on out should not be their concern in the least bit... they need to be focusing on how to best utilize those picks & cap space so they can maximize the value they got outta that deal... i think they made the right move & have always thought so.

to be honest, i really have zero idea why they would even be interested in making this deal for Zach after all that... i mean he's not an old vet but man, does he have a whole lotta luggage... i can't blame them 1 bit for asking for another pick to take on that albatross.
If you ran Memphis, would you do the deal if you were getting back a lottery protected 1st round pick or would you just stay away from Zach?

if i ran Memphis i would have absolutely zero interest in a player like Zach Randolph, i don't care if the Knicks would even give me a 1st rounder to take him off their hands... i'd be focusing on accumulating more draft picks & cap space & targetting a legitimate rebuilding plan making sure my talent scouting is on point & i don't sacrifice that plan for a player i absolutely know i can't win with.
If we show cased Zach in the offense and he put up better #s, would you change your mind? (I know you're not an NBA GM but I still want to try out Oohah's prediction.)
TMS
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9/10/2008  8:29 PM
i don't wanna waste another year showcasing Zach just so we can hope to get some kinda value for him in a trade next year... i say cut bait now & be done with it... i want him outta here now & move forward w/the young guys & try & build some kinda team chemistry this season... next year i wanna start seeing some results from this year & then prepare for the 2010 free agent shopping season the year after by having a team that has learned how to play some team oriented style of basketball... there are so many other areas of concern that we will have to address in the future that we can't afford to still have this Zach problem looming over our heads next offseason as well.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
oohah
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9/10/2008  8:48 PM
Oohah's prediction.)
Not prediction, strategy.
i don't wanna waste another year showcasing Zach

How about up to the trade deadline?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
TMS
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9/10/2008  8:57 PM
Posted by oohah:
i don't wanna waste another year showcasing Zach

How about up to the trade deadline?

oohah

nope... i say cut bait now... i don't want either Zach or Marbury on this team once the season starts... these guys need to start focusing on playing team ball & as long as Zach or Marbury are here worrying about their own selfish interests, that ain't gonna happen if u ask me... trading a future protected 1st rounder is fine w/me if we can nab 1 of the Grizzlies' young prospects... get it done & let's move on... i don't want this dark cloud hanging over this franchise's head for another half a season even... it takes way too long for a team to learn how to play together, i want these guys to have as much time this season as possible to learn their roles in this new system... Zach being here is gonna be counterproductive to any of that happening.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Paladin55
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9/10/2008  9:11 PM
Posted by kam77:

Your inference - that i would build a team around this cast of castoffs - was wildly off.

Just cuz I say that rookies generally don't get much burn, why do you assume I want to build the team around the other guys? Thats a quantumm leap. Not an inference.

Whatever you say, brother, but my original post included my concern that we should play the guys we think might be around in a few years, and that by playing certain vets you would slow down the progress of your younger players. If you play the usual suspects from last year, you take time from the younger players, and since no new veteran big men were added to the Knicks, that is what will happen!

You think about why you might want to play Lee, Chandler, Gallinari, and even baby Ewing(if he sticks), more minutes than Q, Jeffries, Randolph, and Rose, who are our returning vets at the forward position, and you get back to me in 3 years. OK?

Retooling and rebuilding starts this year, and the growth and evolution of players as individuals and as part of a team is more important than the number of wins we have this year.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Bonn1997
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9/10/2008  9:47 PM
Posted by oohah:
Oohah's prediction.)
Not prediction, strategy.

You're predicting a positive outcome of your strategy. (The two terms are not incompatible.)
oohah
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9/10/2008  10:10 PM
You're predicting a positive outcome of your strategy. (The two terms are not incompatible.)

The strategy has to be implemented...if they hold onto Randolph and don't play the sh!t out of him, we are in a worse position.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
crzymdups
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9/10/2008  10:22 PM
there's no way way we'll be good either way this year. i'd rather see the youth develop and zach gone as of tomorrow, but realistically none of our young guys are really building blocks. it doesn't matter either way. we need the 2009 lotto pick to pay off big and 2010 free agency to pay off big or we're locked into more of the same.
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