Posted by Bonn1997:

All you "we are are getting Lebron" nut huggers are crying about cap space.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone in this thread even mentioned Lebron before your comment.

So take that, you Diaw nut hugger!

The new Knicks management has a clear objective:

Stockpiling as much young talent as they can, not making anymore trades for players with big contracts unless its a player that fits their vision and using the MLE wisely. How do you do that?

1. Keep your draft picks. Get the best players available and do your best to develop them. One of the main reasons the Knicks are terrible is the fact that that whenever we have a good draft pick, we trade it. So you keep it and make the best selection you can. The Draft is never a sure thing, but many times you get a good idea what you can get. In the past, with our picks, we could've drafted a guy like Stoudemire or Bynum, but didn't. Pick the best player available and call it a good day.

2. No more panic trades: Those picks mentioned above were traded in a deal for good players that haven't really improved the team. Get a plan and only look for players that fit it. After the 2006-07 season where we struggled with defense, leadership and team cohesion, the least we needed was to trade for a guy like Randolph. Sometimes the best deal is the one you never make. The days of doing trades like the Curry and Randolph moves should be over.

3. No panic MLE signings: Come on, the fact that you can do something doesn't mean you should or must. Don't sign a player unless he really helps your cause and is signed at the right numbers. Jerome James. That says it all. And in Jeffreis case, its more about the numbers because we know he is a decent player, but at his numbers its a terrible deal that limits your trading options later on.

The teams that have turned their fortunes around with a move or two have been those that in their worst seasons have been able to stockpile young players and expiring contracts. Whenever we've had them, we've traded them for instant solutions that have always backfired. The day we stop oing that, our fortunes will change. Hopefully that day arrived the day Mr. Walsh signed.

*Crossing fingers*

The easiest way to bring in Lebron James or Dwayne Wade or any of those guys might be drafing a premimum player this year AND next year, and putting those players together with David Lee, Nate Robinson and Wilson Chandler. Then you take 3 out of 5 of those players and offer them up in a sign and trade.

Putting together around 3 talented young players was the formula used to acquire Garnett, Shaq etc. in past years.

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

To me Randolph for Evens should be more than enough. In most cases philly would have to give us a draft pick or 2 in a deal like this.

I don't think there has ever been a trade like this where a team gave up there lottery pick and by far the most talented player in the trade for a role player that wasn't even an expiring contract as well as move down 10 spots. We would be getting rapped in this deal.

Subtract Evens contract and add Randolphs and Philly ends up paying on average like 10.6mil a season for Randolph as well as moving up for the #6 lottery pick.

Randolph for Evens

Randolph & #6 for Evens, #16, and 2 future draft picks first one top 8-10 protected, 2nd one lottery protected up to 2012.

Most cases? What other cases were there where a team was trying to dumb a cancer with $50 mil left on his contract?

Steve Francis, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Glen Robinson, Antoine Walker, Stepon Marbury, Paul Gasol, Zack Randolph

Each of these players had fallouts with there teams. Most of them tanked a season or 2 or 3 trying to force there team to trade them. Most of the teams in return got back expiring contracts &/or draft picks.

I doubt that Philly said #6 & Randolph or no deal anyway. These are just preliminary talks.

Also By 2009 Randolph will have 2yrs left, 2010 Randolph will have one yr left he will be even more moveable then before the targeted free agent class. By being patient we could get a better deal and still unload Randolph.

Randolph for Evens is a steal in its own right. If they want to move up into the top 5-6 then find another team to do so. Like Seattle or Memphis

None of those examples are close to Zach, either in total money owed or in severity of baggage (or in many cases both). Zach will be more movable in subsequent years only if you're willing to take back contracts that go longer. His mere presence is going to hurt rebuilding too

blue... lets elaborate on "cap flexibility."

The majority of those guys were sign and trades, and fewer still went to teams that were below the cap.

The Mavericks signed Dampier when they had an $80mm payroll. Where they "cap flexible" because they sure as hell didnt have cap space.

I am talking about adding assets to this roster. I am talking about getting better players both to improve the team and open up future trade opportunities. Trading Zach and giving up a lottery pick does NOT help us achieve those goals, and does not bring us any closer to being able to add all star players.

As Briggs said, the only reason you do that move is if you already have good young talent and it immediatly opens space for you to add FAs the following year, like the Suns did by dumping Penny/Marbury and signing Nash/Q that offseason.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

To me Randolph for Evens should be more than enough. In most cases philly would have to give us a draft pick or 2 in a deal like this.

I don't think there has ever been a trade like this where a team gave up there lottery pick and by far the most talented player in the trade for a role player that wasn't even an expiring contract as well as move down 10 spots. We would be getting rapped in this deal.

Subtract Evens contract and add Randolphs and Philly ends up paying on average like 10.6mil a season for Randolph as well as moving up for the #6 lottery pick.

Randolph for Evens

Randolph & #6 for Evens, #16, and 2 future draft picks first one top 8-10 protected, 2nd one lottery protected up to 2012.

Most cases? What other cases were there where a team was trying to dumb a cancer with $50 mil left on his contract?

Steve Francis, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Glen Robinson, Antoine Walker, Stepon Marbury, Paul Gasol, Zack Randolph

Each of these players had fallouts with there teams. Most of them tanked a season or 2 or 3 trying to force there team to trade them. Most of the teams in return got back expiring contracts &/or draft picks.

I doubt that Philly said #6 & Randolph or no deal anyway. These are just preliminary talks.

Also By 2009 Randolph will have 2yrs left, 2010 Randolph will have one yr left he will be even more moveable then before the targeted free agent class. By being patient we could get a better deal and still unload Randolph.

Randolph for Evens is a steal in its own right. If they want to move up into the top 5-6 then find another team to do so. Like Seattle or Memphis

None of those examples are close to Zach, either in total money owed or in severity of baggage (or in many cases both). Zach will be more movable in subsequent years only if you're willing to take back contracts that go longer. His mere presence is going to hurt rebuilding too

None of those examples are close to Zach,

Thats your opinion. Now its your turn, name me player or a team that traded a 26yrs old thats put up 18-20pts 10rebs even if he is labled as a cancer along with a top 6 lottery pick for a role player that didn't even have an expiring contract as well as moving down 10 spots in the draft??

Zach will be more movable in subsequent years only if you're willing to take back contracts that go longer.

Not nessesarily, with 1-2 yrs left teams will be willing to take a shot on a 28yr old who can score and rebound to try and bring there teams to the next level. If he doesn't work out they will let him walk or buy him out and only eat one yr. Deals like Randolph for Evens will be available especially as Randolphs contract goes down.

A team like the Kings with Rahim & Kenny Thomas. Cleveland with Ben Wallace, Clippers with Mobley & Tim Thomas if they lose Elton Brand.

Posted by eViL:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Deals like Randolph for Evens will be available especially as Randolphs contract goes down.

EXACTLY!!! It's not like a bottom of the barrel deal like this is going to disappear. What's the hurry?

We could probably even balk at the deal. Draft who we want to draft. Then spark the talks back up after the draft and pull off Randolph for Evens straight up.

Posted by TMS:

Zach will be more tradeable in 2 years no question about that, but IMO there's value in a deal of this nature that you can take advantage of right now... getting rid of Zach helps guys like Curry & D Lee to continue developing & improving on their games... it also gets rid of 1 of the 1 main negative presence players on this roster & adds a nice role player in Evans.

we're not talking about throwing away a #6 pick here, only moving down a few spots to unload the worst contract we have off our books... there are teams out there like the Pacers looking to dump their pick altogether just to get rid of guys like JO, u guys wanna tell me moving down a few spots to unload Zach isn't worth it? none of us have any guarantees what the future holds... all i know is we've been trying to think of ways to get rid of Zach's contract all last year & just about everytime a deal is proposed it's shot down because no one thought there would be any teams out there looking to take on Zach's contract... now that a deal comes along that may be somewhat feasible all of a sudden trading Zach isn't a great idea because you guys are afraid to move down 10 spots in the draft? let's just say Zach helped us to win enough games to finish out of the lottery this year & sneak into the playoffs, would we still be as reluctant to trade him away & hold onto our pick? i don't see any difference there to be honest... the guy isn't helping us win any titles & is not conducive to establishing any kind of winning atmosphere in NY... we need to get rid of him, plain & simple.

The Rockets traded number 8 pick and Stro Show for Shane Battier. Man that trade really crippled the Rockets and propelled the Grizzlies. It did so much so according to most the Grizz felt compelled to give Gasol away for pennies on the dollar. Wait a second then the Rockets followed up this knee jerk trade with other low reward trades not for first round picks but for second pick prospects in Luis Scola and Carl Landry. Man what were the Rockets thinking of with these moves!!!!!

Posted by fishmike:

not talking about our own FAs... look again at the Dallas example. They signed Dampier, who was an UFA to a huge deal when their payroll was $80mm. Is that cap flexible in your opinion?

All you need to have to make S&T FA aquisitions is expiring contracts and good young rotation players. So tell me how getting rid of Zach and trading our lottery pick accomplishes that.

I am being short sighted? Refusing to trade down is short sighted? Sorry.. I dont buy it. I want the most quality talent we can get. Thats usually closer to the top of the draft then the middle of it.

Paying someone to take Zach is a short sighted panic move.

My turn to ask about your players. Who are we going to have on our team that you're gonna include in a sign and trade to get a star player worth building around? (Or how else are you going to get a star player worth building around?)

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-06-2008 3:17 PM]