Nobody is saying that less qualified people should get jobs or better opportunity over more qualified. But I have to ask the question. Why are there more qualified whites in Law firms than blacks or Latinos? Some of you guys are giving the reasoning because black people are lazy and don't take accountability & responsibility for our lives. Some of that is true. But there are way more blacks than whites in the sport of basketball. So should I assume that the reason why whites aren't as successful as blacks are because whites are lazy when it comes to basketball? If blacks are so lazy then why do we train so hard when it comes to an equal opportunity like football? Why aren't we lazy with that to. If everything was such equal opportunity why do blacks choose football out of all things to not be lazy at?

Lets look back. Slavery was first, Slavery was a time period where whites not only enslaved blacks. But they *killed* any African Americans that could read or write from 1618-1865. They only kept the biggest, fastest & strongest slaves and killed everyone else and bread them like horses. Which is why today blacks dominate sporting contest the way we do & not law firms(Cause & effect). 247 yrs of killing any African American that tried to learn to read or write(Cause & effect). If for 247 yrs we were being breed to learn law then we would dominate the law firms.

Then starting from 1865-2008 there has been oppression. Though has been a lot of improvement oppression hasn't ended. But for 100s of yrs after slavery the time period whites killed any African American that could read or write. Schools in black communities couldn't get the same quality education as whites due to segregation which ended in 1954. So from 1618-1954 (336 yrs) blacks were getting poorer education than whites for no reason but because of the color of our skin not because we were lazy, selling weed, drinking 40s on steps. In 1957 blacks were allowed to vote. So from 1618-1957(339 yrs) blacks weren't allowed to have an opinion on who lead the country they were living in. 1964 segregation in the workplace and public accomodations ended. So from 1618-1964(346 yrs) blacks weren't getting as quality jobs as whites, weren't getting promotions, weren't getting in position of power within there jobs. In 1968 the civil rights bill band discrimination within housing. From 1618-1968 (350 yrs) blacks were living in poorer living conditions than whites.

Now some of you guys are telling me that us blacks by working harder should be able to make up for over 400yrs(oppression has ended so I am counting all the yrs to date) within lets say a 44 yr span(1964 when both schools & workforce stopped segregation until today 2008) while also still being oppressed to a lesser degree behind the scenes. You tell blacks to take accountability and responsibility for blacks lives yet it seems like you don't believe that whites should take accountability & responsibility for whites actions(or maybe you believe whites already have) of slavery, oppression, segregation, racism, police brutality(police force majority white), mafia & corrupt cops, corrupt judicial system(majority white), corrupt government(majority white), racial barrier in the corporate world which only promote enough blacks to fill a quota. Which most still goes on today. We both blacks and whites need to take accountability & responsibility in both black s and whites lives together. And since whites started it and have the most power & our best leaders have been assassinated(not accusing whites). They should be the ones to start to put in the effort to make the necessary changes.

Schools in black communities still aren't well funded. You would have to move out of any black community and live in a majority white community in order to get a quality education. But not everyone can do that nor should they have to. So while segregation ended allowing people the option to move to a majority white community to gain an education. It also didn't end because people can't get a quality education no matter where they live.

I am not asking for the government to give handouts like more welfare or reparations. I am asking for the people who are in the position of power to truly make the changes needed so that we can all be successful and all have an environment of success. To go to the root causes and fix the improper structure and completely knock down the racial barrier in all aspects of life. We maybe be black, but we are human as well so please treat us as such. Treat each other as one of your own.

I'd just like to correct you New York, New york on one point, segregation was made illeagal in 1954, but it did not end in 1954.
1964 didn't give blacks full access to good jobs (new york parks dept. just settled a multimillion dollar discrimination suit because they were discriminating against black and latino workers).

All those laws and those dates did was put in law books and establish that things are happening and that they should stop. People dont stop being racist because a law is passed, and people dont start to see you as human because supreme court said so. These things are still happening, BRIGGS argument about blacks being lazy is just the same old racist logic that was being used 50 & 100 years ago. This is a man who isn't smarter than me calling my people lazy. I wouldn't invest much energy into his claims, he watches a TV show and thinks he knows black people and hasn't read a book, a sociological study and has anecdotal evidence to make his spurious and racist arguments. Discrimination does not exist in his eyes, we are in a color blind society, no one is holding anyone back, none of the brutal poverty and bad schools, and poor helathcare and brutal racist violence has any effect on people or their environment or their culture or anything, its all washed away and meaningless. I guess thats why the Native Americans are so prominent, because none of that brutal racism did anything to them. Yes you can make it out of the ghetto, you cna make it through a lot of things if you are super strong or have good help from family and friend or are lucky; but the odds are against you. The bottom line is, when you grow up in a ghetto, you have more things working against you than for you. Blackness works against you, and white people who deny this are either lying, or poorly informed, all of this is very well documented in scientific study after study. If you are black realtors dont show you certain houses, many employers dont hire you, car co's overcharge you, mortgage companies deny you or over charge you it is all very well documented. A black man with a degree has the same job chances as a white man with a felony. This is all documented.

I dont think you are arguing from a strong position with this basketball analogy. The things i say about institutional discrimination is mainstream social science, not fringe radical black stuff. But if you only watch mainstream media and live life in a white world, you form many, unintentionally racist opinions. The former head of the American Sociological Association Joe Fegin a white man says this:

More recently, Feagin has articulated a comprehensive theory of racial oppression in the U.S. in his book Systemic Racism: A Theory of Oppression (Routledge, 2006). Feagin examines how major institutions have been built upon racial oppression which was not an accident of history, but was created intentionally by white Americans. In Feagin's view, white Americans labored hard to create a system of racial oppression in the 17th century and have worked diligently to maintain the system ever since. While Feagin acknowledges that changes have occurred in this racist system over the centuries, he contends that key and fundamental elements have been reproduced over nearly four centuries, and that U.S. institutions today reflect the racialized hierarchy created in the 17th century. Today, as in the past, racial oppression is not just a surface-level feature of this society, but rather pervades, permeates, and interconnects all major social groups, networks, and institutions across the society. Feagin's definition stands in sharp contrast to psychological definitions that assume racism is an "attitude" or an irrational form of bigotry that exists apart from the organization of social structure.

this is mainstream stuff, to academics who study it, to lay people, silly things like 'playing the race card' 'reverse racism' 'blacks are lazy' these are normal reactions, mainstrem things, but look at the radio the top 3 people are Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Michael Savage. These people aren't intellectuals they are highly paid misinformers, their job is to mislead people into xenophobia, racism, religion, anything to keep their eyes off of the big bosses, the super rich, the ruling clas that are running the show.

In my last post I said I agree Personal responsibility is part of the solution and then made some other more nuanced points about social responsibility (social justice) being the other part of the solution. BRIGGS argues by restating his post and doesn't respond to anything I've said. I read his post, he either has not read or has not understood mine.

And no one has answered this, Solace responded, but did not answer the question:
How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society?

No one wants to answer it because it basically makes the point that I've been making all along, White people in general dont have a clue about this, or the black experience, but feel free to make grand and forceful assumptions, all of the assumptions are negative about blacks, and reinforce the greatness of American society. These things are not reality for millions of people black white and everything else. All of those poor people in Pennsylvania who lost their jobs because plants moved out of the country, are they lazy? No their white. Hard working, even when they're not working. BLack people are lazy.

I can prove my case with documented fact, but i can't even get one person to admit that they aren't well informed about racism, or what it means to grow up black in the ghetto, something I did btw. Its called white denial.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-30-2008 12:13 PM]

My dad born in 1926 (deceased now)was so hurt by jim crow days, he refused to talk to me about what happen to him and his family back in the day.

Posted by Killa4luv:

I'd just like to correct you New York, New york on one point, segregation was made illeagal in 1954, but it did not end in 1954.
1964 didn't give blacks full access to good jobs (new york parks dept. just settled a multimillion dollar discrimination suit because they were discriminating against black and latino workers).

All those laws and those dates did was put in law books and establish that things are happening and that they should stop. People dont stop being racist because a law is passed, and people dont start to see you as human because supreme court said so. These things are still happening, BRIGGS argument about blacks being lazy is just the same old racist logic that was being used 50 & 100 years ago. This is a man who isn't smarter than me calling my people lazy. I wouldn't invest much energy into his claims, he watches a TV show and thinks he knows black people and hasn't read a book, a sociological study and has anecdotal evidence to make his spurious and racist arguments. Discrimination does not exist in his eyes, we are in a color blind society, no one is holding anyone back, none of the brutal poverty and bad schools, and poor helathcare and brutal racist violence has any effect on people or their environment or their culture or anything, its all washed away and meaningless. I guess thats why the Native Americans are so prominent, because none of that brutal racism did anything to them. Yes you can make it out of the ghetto, you cna make it through a lot of things if you are super strong or have good help from family and friend or are lucky; but the odds are against you. The bottom line is, when you grow up in a ghetto, you have more things working against you than for you. Blackness works against you, and white people who deny this are either lying, or poorly informed, all of this is very well documented in scientific study after study. If you are black realtors dont show you certain houses, many employers dont hire you, car co's overcharge you, mortgage companies deny you or over charge you it is all very well documented. A black man with a degree has the same job chances as a white man with a felony. This is all documented.

I dont think you are arguing from a strong position with this basketball analogy. The things i say about institutional discrimination is mainstream social science, not fringe radical black stuff. But if you only watch mainstream media and live life in a white world, you form many, unintentionally racist opinions. The former head of the American Sociological Association Joe Fegin a white man says this:

More recently, Feagin has articulated a comprehensive theory of racial oppression in the U.S. in his book Systemic Racism: A Theory of Oppression (Routledge, 2006). Feagin examines how major institutions have been built upon racial oppression which was not an accident of history, but was created intentionally by white Americans. In Feagin's view, white Americans labored hard to create a system of racial oppression in the 17th century and have worked diligently to maintain the system ever since. While Feagin acknowledges that changes have occurred in this racist system over the centuries, he contends that key and fundamental elements have been reproduced over nearly four centuries, and that U.S. institutions today reflect the racialized hierarchy created in the 17th century. Today, as in the past, racial oppression is not just a surface-level feature of this society, but rather pervades, permeates, and interconnects all major social groups, networks, and institutions across the society. Feagin's definition stands in sharp contrast to psychological definitions that assume racism is an "attitude" or an irrational form of bigotry that exists apart from the organization of social structure.

this is mainstream stuff, to academics who study it, to lay people, silly things like 'playing the race card' 'reverse racism' 'blacks are lazy' these are normal reactions, mainstrem things, but look at the radio the top 3 people are Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Michael Savage. These people aren't intellectuals they are highly paid misinformers, their job is to mislead people into xenophobia, racism, religion, anything to keep their eyes off of the big bosses, the super rich, the ruling clas that are running the show.

In my last post I said I agree Personal responsibility is part of the solution and then made some other more nuanced points about social responsibility (social justice) being the other part of the solution. BRIGGS argues by restating his post and doesn't respond to anything I've said. I read his post, he either has not read or has not understood mine.

And no one has answered this, Solace responded, but did not answer the question:
How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society?

No one wants to answer it because it basically makes the point that I've been making all along, White people in general dont have a clue about this, or the black experience, but feel free to make grand and forceful assumptions, all of the assumptions are negative about blacks, and reinforce the greatness of American society. These things are not reality for millions of people black white and everything else. All of those poor people in Pennsylvania who lost their jobs because plants moved out of the country, are they lazy? No their white. Hard working, even when they're not working. BLack people are lazy.

I can prove my case with documented fact, but i can't even get one person to admit that they aren't well informed about racism, or what it means to grow up black in the ghetto, something I did btw. Its called white denial.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-30-2008 12:13 PM]

I don't mean to jump into a back and forth between you and BRIGGS but I think the 2 of you are talking about 2 different things.

I was a black kid in Harlem, who fortunately had middle class parents, who sent me to one of the top private schools in the city

BRIGGS said:
So how do you know anything about poor people of any color?

Are you taking your medication? I just told you I grew up in Harlem, not on 81 st and central park west, Harlem.
And not this new Harlem, Harlem of the 70s,80s and 90s. It was a very rough place at times.
My childhood friends were falsely accused and imprisoned for the central park jogger case in 88, but not before they were beaten into confessing by the police mind you.
The have of course had all of their convictions overturned since, but yeah, heckuva job police force, railroad some black kids into prison on a rape charge where they do long stretches. Great police work. I suppose this is something else that didnt happen that i'm being emotional about, and I suppose this also had nothing to do with race.



[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-30-2008 7:01 PM]