Posted by TMS:

Posted by islesfan:

I've said that Crawford would make a nice 6th man. He's too inconsistent and erratic to be counted on every game but would be much better coming off the bench in a Vinnie Johnson type role.

When people "bash" Knicks players after a good game, I think it's based on their inconsistencies and how they are just as likely, if not more, to shoot the team out of a game as much as they are into it. Plus they are playing out of position, neither Craw or Nate are PG's, so it's Fool's Gold to think that this is something to build on.

a guy who's put up multiple 50 point games & several more 40+ pt games is just 6th man material in your eyes, yet a guy who's averaging like 4 points on the season & has had maybe 2 or 3 noteworthy games so far in his 3 years in the NBA you see as starting material someday... come on man... where's the objectivity in that?

You're completely missing the point. You say "just 6th man material" like it's a slap in the face. I guess guys like Vinnie Johnson, Kevin McHale and John Havlicek should be ashamed or something. Do you disagree that Crawford's inconsistency is a problem and it's not wise to count on him heavily on a game to game basis? If that's not being objective, then I don't know what is.

Posted by islesfan:
Balkman has no basketball skills and he hasn't improved at all since last year. He's a good off the ball defender, he's energetic on the boards and he can finish at the basket in the open court. Bottom line is he's a decent role player at 5-10 minutes a night. The hope is that he can develop into a very poor man's Bruce Bowen without shooting skills. But he has an enormous amount of improvement to do on his man to man defense before he can even be that. You think that type of player is a starter in this league? Jesus, Balkman wasn't even a starter on his South Carolina teams in his senior year.

Bruce Bowen??? compare his 1st 2 years in the NBA to Balkman's #'s... even w/o having been given much of a chance to show his worth, Balkman wins out... obviously right now Bowen is the better on ball defender, there isn't a better one in the game, but early in his career he didn't show much of anything either... the guy also lacks any real NBA skills other than knocking down an occasional wide open 3 pointer because he's regularly played alongside superstars that demand all the attention from the other team's defenders that sets him apart from Balk... from what i've seen, Balkman's shooting form isn't all that bad, he's just way off on his aim... w/more work & repitition i see no reason why he can't develop a dependable perimeter shot... hell, if Shawn Marion can shoot 3's w/that whack-ass form of his, anyone can... it's just a matter of dedication & work, something Balk maybe has not shown yet, but perhaps given the minutes to show his worth he'd be more motivated to do so... put Balkman in as a starter & i'd be very confident he could post 10 / 8 / 2 type numbers right off the bat, which is miles above what Bowen's putting up right now.

Marcus is finally getting some decent playing time and he's shown some nice skills.

so has Balkman when given the minutes.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by islesfan:
Balkman has no basketball skills and he hasn't improved at all since last year. He's a good off the ball defender, he's energetic on the boards and he can finish at the basket in the open court. Bottom line is he's a decent role player at 5-10 minutes a night. The hope is that he can develop into a very poor man's Bruce Bowen without shooting skills. But he has an enormous amount of improvement to do on his man to man defense before he can even be that. You think that type of player is a starter in this league? Jesus, Balkman wasn't even a starter on his South Carolina teams in his senior year.

Bruce Bowen??? compare his 1st 2 years in the NBA to Balkman's #'s... even w/o having been given much of a chance to show his worth, Balkman wins out... obviously right now Bowen is the better on ball defender, there isn't a better one in the game, but early in his career he didn't show much of anything either... the guy also lacks any real NBA skills other than knocking down an occasional wide open 3 pointer because he's regularly played alongside superstars that demand all the attention from the other team's defenders that sets him apart from Balk... from what i've seen, Balkman's shooting form isn't all that bad, he's just way off on his aim... w/more work & repitition i see no reason why he can't develop a dependable perimeter shot... hell, if Shawn Marion can shoot 3's w/that whack-ass form of his, anyone can... it's just a matter of dedication & work, something Balk maybe has not shown yet, but perhaps given the minutes to show his worth he'd be more motivated to do so... put Balkman in as a starter & i'd be very confident he could post 10 / 8 / 2 type numbers right off the bat, which is miles above what Bowen's putting up right now.

Why are you comparing Balkman to the first 2 years of Bowen? Is that supposed to mean that Balkman will be better than Bowen? Why doesn't everyone turn out as good as Bowen has been if you're going to compare them to his first 2 years?

Balkman doesn't receive any attention on offense because he's so bad and has so little skill. You make it sound like Bowen has a free ride to do things offensively while teams key on Balkman. After 2 years in the league, it's still 50/50 that Balkman will shoot an air ball. Please don't use that faulty reasoning that if Shawn Marion can shoot with that form, that it means anybody can. That's ridiculous. You thing Balkman is better than Bowen??? That's even more ridiculous. I really hope you're just talking about pure numbers and not the whole package. If not, I don't know what to tell you. Bowen is a legitimate starter on a championship caliber team, he's a lockdown man to man defender and does all the little things to help his team win. But you think Balkman would be "miles" ahead of him if given the minutes. Good grief.

so has Balkman when given the minutes.

Basketball skills? Marcus has to prove himself for 30-35 minutes a night that he can develop enough to run a team. That takes a lot more skill and time to develop, so in terms of their development, it's only natural that it will take Marcus longer than Balkman. Balkman can play by the seat of his pants for 5-15 minutes a night in his role as an energy guy and disruptor. If you don't excel defensively and on the boards, like a Ben Wallace, you're not going to be considered a starter in this league and Balkman will most likely never be.

[Edited by - islesfan on 24-02-2008 6:45 PM]

isles, you said "Balkman has no basketball skills" and then you say "He's a good off the ball defender, he's energetic on the boards and he can finish at the basket in the open court." i believe those are "basketball skills." very good basketball skills at that. its not balkman's fault that isiah doesn't play him, messes with his head by playing him big minutes some nights and DNP-CD other nights. he is a classic example of a guy who WILL thrive somewhere else and everyone will be saying "balkman was buried on the bench."

you can be objective on some things. balkman is a good player, when he plays more than 20 minutes and gets into the flow of the game he's shown he can contribute on the offensive glass, on defense with steals, and with overall hustle. (if you don't believe me, you haven't been watching the games. three times this month -- against the blazers, spurs, and pacers i think, i can look it up if you'd like -- balkman has made an impact when he's gotten minutes).

role players like balkman are VERY necessary on a team that goes 1-6. you have a competent and effective starting 5, a 6th man who provides more offensively than balkman can, and then balkman coming in to provide energy and hustle. guys like that can play 20 minutes a night, be fan favorites, and make plays.

that being said, i'd much rather have kyle lowry or jordan farmar over him. lowry and farmar are both guys who i've watched a lot, both are capable starting point guards. lowry can be a first team all-defender and i think farmar has the goods to be an all-star, he is really nasty. i don't think marcus williams is that good, isles, you even admit this in saying "marcus wasn't a starter either." that is why this entire fascination with marcus williams is so bizarre, maybe it's because the nets and you watch him? i'm not sure, i have league pass and i watch lowry and farmar every game they play, they are studs, yet you insist on making this marcus williams comparison as if the knicks would be marginally better if you replaced balkman with marcus williams.

balkman just forced a steal as well. PLAY THIS GUY. you gotta give credit to isiah for drafting him (though, as i said, i'd like lowry or farmar, but balkman is still a good player and a good pick), but isiah's such a DUMBASS and doesn't play him. that's not balkman's fault, don't take it out on him.

a) you can't assume that williams would be playing ANY MORE than balkman is.
b) you don't refute my stats because you can't -- when balkman gets playing time he is effective. balkman has shown that. stop hating on the guy just b/c he's associated with isiah. i agree with you, isiah could have made a better pick (lowry or farmar).

you know isles, he could have had andrew bynum instead of channing frye, and monta ellis instead of nate robinson.

imagine lowry or farmar, bynum, and monta ellis. my god. instead we have nate and balkman. oh well.

once again, its redundant just posting about marcus williams when the guy has a game once a month. at least talk about monta ellis and how he's averaging 30 a game this month. then you can bitch and moan, becuase if we have a guy averaging 30 a game this month i agree, this team would be better.

marcus williams is a bit player, so is balkman, neither make a difference, get over yourself!

Posted by BigSm00th:

a) you can't assume that williams would be playing ANY MORE than balkman is.
b) you don't refute my stats because you can't -- when balkman gets playing time he is effective. balkman has shown that. stop hating on the guy just b/c he's associated with isiah. i agree with you, isiah could have made a better pick (lowry or farmar).

you know isles, he could have had andrew bynum instead of channing frye, and monta ellis instead of nate robinson.

imagine lowry or farmar, bynum, and monta ellis. my god. instead we have nate and balkman. oh well.

once again, its redundant just posting about marcus williams when the guy has a game once a month. at least talk about monta ellis and how he's averaging 30 a game this month. then you can bitch and moan, becuase if we have a guy averaging 30 a game this month i agree, this team would be better.

marcus williams is a bit player, so is balkman, neither make a difference, get over yourself!

Seeing how there's less competition for PT amongst the guards, I think it's a fair assumption to say that Williams would have been given more playing time than Balkman. Forcing Crawford and Robinson to play this many minutes a night is a sign that Isiah doesn't trust his other guards.

I noticed you conveniently left out the 25 minutes he played against the Bucks where Balkman failed to score. Not to mention a bunch of other games where he played 15+ minutes and didn't do anything special.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by islesfan:

Why are you comparing Balkman to the first 2 years of Bowen? Is that supposed to mean that Balkman will be better than Bowen? Why doesn't everyone turn out as good as Bowen has been if you're going to compare them to his first 2 years?

Balkman doesn't receive any attention on offense because he's so bad and has so little skill. You make it sound like Bowen has a free ride to do things offensively while teams key on Balkman. After 2 years in the league, it's still 50/50 that Balkman will shoot an air ball. Please don't use that faulty reasoning that if Shawn Marion can shoot with that form, that it means anybody can. That's ridiculous. You thing Balkman is better than Bowen??? That's even more ridiculous. I really hope you're just talking about pure numbers and not the whole package. If not, I don't know what to tell you. Bowen is a legitimate starter on a championship caliber team, he's a lockdown man to man defender and does all the little things to help his team win. But you think Balkman would be "miles" ahead of him if given the minutes. Good grief.

i said the numbers Balkman would put up as a starter would be miles above the 5 & 3 that Bowen's putting up now... didn't u read where i said Bowen was the best on ball defender in the game? yes, i know basketball is more than just numbers... that's why i think a guy like Balkman has value, because he does more than just put up #'s... he creates & finishes easy scoring fastbreak opportunities w/his hustle, steals, shotblocking, rebounding & speed running down the court... he gets the crowd into the game w/his effort & dynamic dunks... he's an energizer for his teammates & they feed off him when he's making those types of plays on the floor.

i'm comparing Bowen & Balkman's 1st 2 years because as i already said, in Bowen's 1st 2 seasons he didn't show much of anything either & Balkman's only played 2 seasons... what other fairer way is there for comparison to you then? it's fair to compare what a 12 yr NBA veteran has shown so far in his career over what a 3rd player has? that's what you consider to be fair?... IMO Bowen is really nothing more than a very good role playing defensive specialist... he has no scoring talent whatsoever other than the ability to knock down a wide open 3 once or twice a game, is not a good rebounder or finisher on the fastbreak, does not pass the ball especially great or block shots... Balkman's already a better rebounder, more efficient scorer (50% career compared to 40% for Bowen) & a better shotblocker than he is... he's got a ways to go before he reaches Bowen's level defensively obviously, but like i just pointed out, he does things that Bowen doesn't do... this doesn't mean i think Balkman's a better player overall, but you're seriously overrating Bowen if u ask me.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-24-2008 5:12 PM]

Because how many players don't show much of anything in their first 2 years and then become an All NBA defender and an integral piece of multiple championship teams?

Posted by islesfan:

Because how many players don't show much of anything in their first 2 years and then become an All NBA defender and an integral piece of multiple championship teams?

let's keep the discussions of championships aside here cuz u know damn well there's no way this team is gonna win multiple championships unless we get ourselves a legitimate franchise player & get some semblence of control over our cap situation.

so why can't Balkman grow into a player like Bowen & Wallace otherwise? those guys have no basketball skills either under your definition & yet they've carved out very nice careers for themselves after they were given the opportunity... why can't Balkman do the same? how do you know he doesn't have what it takes to get there? did u really think Bowen & Wallace were destined to become the best defenders at their positions after their 1st 2 seasons in the league? they got there through hard work & w/consistent playing time... i just ask that Balkman be given the same opportunity... what the hell do we have to lose? u think Q Rich or Jefferies deserve playing time over him at this point?

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

If your sixth man's not gonna play much defense, then he better be a more consistent contributor on offense than Jamal is. Jamal's closer to an 8th man on a legit team.

please, using that as a guide, Marcus Williams would be lucky to even make an NBA roster based on what he's shown... u guys are seriously trippin'... this is pretty entertaining to hear all these "objective" points of view.

Well the last time he was a bench player (2005-6), he received zero 6th man votes. That placed him behind at least fourteen teams' 6th men, meaning that he'd be those teams 7th (or lower) man. And it's not like he's improved since that season. Why do you think he got zero 6th man votes?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-24-2008 9:07 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

If your sixth man's not gonna play much defense, then he better be a more consistent contributor on offense than Jamal is. Jamal's closer to an 8th man on a legit team.

please, using that as a guide, Marcus Williams would be lucky to even make an NBA roster based on what he's shown... u guys are seriously trippin'... this is pretty entertaining to hear all these "objective" points of view.

Well the last time he was a bench player (2005-6), he received zero 6th man votes. That placed him behind at least fourteen teams' 6th men, meaning that he'd be those teams 7th (or lower) man. And it's not like he's improved since that season. Why do you think he got zero 6th man votes?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-24-2008 9:07 PM]

Bonn logic.