You and Solace seem to believe that Isiah thinks it's OK to do this. He said that it's not and the only thing at issue is that you two seem to keep missing the other point. It's WORSE for a whiteman to say this to a Black woman due to the ADDITION of the RACIAL overtones. It's not the same thing. You guys can keep trying to minimize this race issue all you want, but it's the reality of the situation. This is why crimes have to be checked now for any "hate crime" potential, due to the fact that when there's any difference in race there's the chance that race played a part in the crime. In this case it's not a crime, but a ethical situation.

I don't condone EVER calling a woman a "B" and that includes in the workplace. I may think it or even say it about someone in private conversation to my wife or my wife might say that some woman was acting like a "B" to me in private, but I would never say that to a woman directly. It's not in my normal speech pattern to do that. Like a lot of bad words it's used in everyday conversation and is now even allowed on Network TV. I started working for Paine Webber back in 1982 and in all my years and in the different jobs i've had, i've never had an instance where in anger I called someone out of their name. I have self control. When I choose to express myself here in colorful language, it's quite a bit different from talking to a co worker face to face on the job.

Posted by nixluva:

You and Solace seem to believe that Isiah thinks it's OK to do this.

No. Based on the quotes you posted, that has nada to do with my argument, so no, I don't.

Posted by nixluva:

It's WORSE for a whiteman to say this to a Black woman due to the ADDITION of the RACIAL overtones. It's not the same thing.

Ok, so again, now that you've highlighted your opinion, answer me this... What racial overtones?!? The word 'bitch' alone implies no racial overtones.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Let's get this straight Luva I don't feel I SAY UGH said it's ok for a Black Man to call a Black Woman a Bitch vs a White Man. I feel he differentiated on tolerance. I'm saying if anyone violates company policy or a human being working for that company, factoring in race has nothing to do with the penalty handed out. And it's not WORST if a WHITE MAN calls a BLACK WOMAN a *****. By whose standards yours? Not mine, wrong is wrong. Have you personally talked to several black women on this matter and gathered their feelings/thoughts? if you haven't you're totally unqualified to assess this issue? How would you prove it Luva if such person referred to every female the same way or even every individual that ticked them off in the work place?

I SAY UGH is Racial Profiling according to what your saying and what he said and that's wrong ALL DAY EVERYDAY!

I have to say, well said. Nice post.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:

You and Solace seem to believe that Isiah thinks it's OK to do this.

No. Based on the quotes you posted, that has nada to do with my argument, so no, I don't.

Posted by nixluva:

It's WORSE for a whiteman to say this to a Black woman due to the ADDITION of the RACIAL overtones. It's not the same thing.

Ok, so again, now that you've highlighted your opinion, answer me this... What racial overtones?!? The word 'bitch' alone implies no racial overtones.

I believe I FULLY explained this in my previous posts and you didn't understand it.

I posted excerpts from 2 articles by two white male writers and they both explained it and you didn't understand:

"What he revealed was, in his mind, there are varying degrees, depending on race, which is also an issue. Thomas has since explained that his statement about the higher sensitivity of a white man calling a black woman a "bitch" has to do with the racial undertones of it.
Isiah reveals that he does see the word in different colors. This notion that we're all the same and should be viewed the same is misguided from a socialogical standpoint. That doesn't mean we can accept, appreciate and respect our differences. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated the same.
But we can't expect to be viewed the same.
Fact is, Isiah never said it was not offensive for a black man to call a black woman a bitch, he said it was more offensive to him for a white man to do it. But the deposition clearly states that he acknowledged it was offensive, black or white. Period."

"The defamation of Thomas' character has left him in a zombie-like state for too many days this preseason. No matter what he says to try to clarify things, nobody wants to listen. He feels suffocated. It is true Thomas never actually said it was "OK" for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch," something Stringer acknowledged in her apology"

"During the deposition, Thomas was asked whether it's as severe for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch" than for a white man to do so. "Not as much," he said. "And I'm sorry to say, I do make a distinction. A white man calling a black woman a bitch is highly offensive."
Thomas says the tape was cut before he added it's more offensive because of "perceived racial overtones." During his testimony, Thomas said, "I am highly offended by any male referring to any black female a bitch." "


Killa4luv also eloquently explained the point.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

And being more offended when a white calls a black woman a bitch, I believe, is a function of his own racial bias.

No its actually a function of social and historical context. White people and black people have a long history around behavior and language that isn't pleasant. We are really only 1 generation removed from being lynched, castrated, called boy, nigger, black bitch, not being able to vote, etc. My father grew up in that era. In fact, when you said I 'speak of myself as black' because i am light skinned side and you assumed that i was mixed, its actually relevant to this discusssion (and a source of great laughter to my mom and I, its now an ongoing joke). I'm not mixed. both parents and all 4 grands are black. However, I wouldnt in the least bit be surprised if somewhere down the line a femal ancestor of mine was raped by a white man somewhere and thats what accounts for my light skin. There was a time not so long ago, when it wasnt really all that unusual.

So put into a historical context, it makes perfect sense to me and millions of other black people why the comments would be offensive coming from anyone but more offensive from a white person. The presumption is that we are dealing with racism + sexism as opposed to just racism. Does not that compound the situation?

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:

You and Solace seem to believe that Isiah thinks it's OK to do this.

No. Based on the quotes you posted, that has nada to do with my argument, so no, I don't.

Posted by nixluva:

It's WORSE for a whiteman to say this to a Black woman due to the ADDITION of the RACIAL overtones. It's not the same thing.

Ok, so again, now that you've highlighted your opinion, answer me this... What racial overtones?!? The word 'bitch' alone implies no racial overtones.

I believe I FULLY explained this in my previous posts and you didn't understand it.

I posted excerpts from 2 articles by two white male writers and they both explained it and you didn't understand:

"What he revealed was, in his mind, there are varying degrees, depending on race, which is also an issue. Thomas has since explained that his statement about the higher sensitivity of a white man calling a black woman a "bitch" has to do with the racial undertones of it.
Isiah reveals that he does see the word in different colors. This notion that we're all the same and should be viewed the same is misguided from a socialogical standpoint. That doesn't mean we can accept, appreciate and respect our differences. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated the same.
But we can't expect to be viewed the same.
Fact is, Isiah never said it was not offensive for a black man to call a black woman a bitch, he said it was more offensive to him for a white man to do it. But the deposition clearly states that he acknowledged it was offensive, black or white. Period."

"The defamation of Thomas' character has left him in a zombie-like state for too many days this preseason. No matter what he says to try to clarify things, nobody wants to listen. He feels suffocated. It is true Thomas never actually said it was "OK" for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch," something Stringer acknowledged in her apology"

"During the deposition, Thomas was asked whether it's as severe for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch" than for a white man to do so. "Not as much," he said. "And I'm sorry to say, I do make a distinction. A white man calling a black woman a bitch is highly offensive."
Thomas says the tape was cut before he added it's more offensive because of "perceived racial overtones." During his testimony, Thomas said, "I am highly offended by any male referring to any black female a bitch." "


Killa4luv also eloquently explained the point.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

And being more offended when a white calls a black woman a bitch, I believe, is a function of his own racial bias.

No its actually a function of social and historical context. White people and black people have a long history around behavior and language that isn't pleasant. We are really only 1 generation removed from being lynched, castrated, called boy, nigger, black bitch, not being able to vote, etc. My father grew up in that era. In fact, when you said I 'speak of myself as black' because i am light skinned side and you assumed that i was mixed, its actually relevant to this discusssion (and a source of great laughter to my mom and I, its now an ongoing joke). I'm not mixed. both parents and all 4 grands are black. However, I wouldnt in the least bit be surprised if somewhere down the line a femal ancestor of mine was raped by a white man somewhere and thats what accounts for my light skin. There was a time not so long ago, when it wasnt really all that unusual.

So put into a historical context, it makes perfect sense to me and millions of other black people why the comments would be offensive coming from anyone but more offensive from a white person. The presumption is that we are dealing with racism + sexism as opposed to just racism. Does not that compound the situation?

How is that the explanation? Based on some artifically determined set of rules? Your answer can't be "that's the bottom line because Nixluva/Isiah said so". Please tell me you have something better than that.

Dear Truebloser,

Please answer the question:

1) Is it worse when a black man calls another black man a jigaboo and spook than when a white man does it?

2) And since you did it, maybe you should drop the holier than thou routine?

oohah

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by nixluva:

You and Solace seem to believe that Isiah thinks it's OK to do this.

No. Based on the quotes you posted, that has nada to do with my argument, so no, I don't.

Posted by nixluva:

It's WORSE for a whiteman to say this to a Black woman due to the ADDITION of the RACIAL overtones. It's not the same thing.

Ok, so again, now that you've highlighted your opinion, answer me this... What racial overtones?!? The word 'bitch' alone implies no racial overtones.

I believe I FULLY explained this in my previous posts and you didn't understand it.

I posted excerpts from 2 articles by two white male writers and they both explained it and you didn't understand:

"What he revealed was, in his mind, there are varying degrees, depending on race, which is also an issue. Thomas has since explained that his statement about the higher sensitivity of a white man calling a black woman a "bitch" has to do with the racial undertones of it.
Isiah reveals that he does see the word in different colors. This notion that we're all the same and should be viewed the same is misguided from a socialogical standpoint. That doesn't mean we can accept, appreciate and respect our differences. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated the same.
But we can't expect to be viewed the same.
Fact is, Isiah never said it was not offensive for a black man to call a black woman a bitch, he said it was more offensive to him for a white man to do it. But the deposition clearly states that he acknowledged it was offensive, black or white. Period."

"The defamation of Thomas' character has left him in a zombie-like state for too many days this preseason. No matter what he says to try to clarify things, nobody wants to listen. He feels suffocated. It is true Thomas never actually said it was "OK" for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch," something Stringer acknowledged in her apology"

"During the deposition, Thomas was asked whether it's as severe for a black man to call a black woman a "bitch" than for a white man to do so. "Not as much," he said. "And I'm sorry to say, I do make a distinction. A white man calling a black woman a bitch is highly offensive."
Thomas says the tape was cut before he added it's more offensive because of "perceived racial overtones." During his testimony, Thomas said, "I am highly offended by any male referring to any black female a bitch." "


Killa4luv also eloquently explained the point.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

And being more offended when a white calls a black woman a bitch, I believe, is a function of his own racial bias.

No its actually a function of social and historical context. White people and black people have a long history around behavior and language that isn't pleasant. We are really only 1 generation removed from being lynched, castrated, called boy, nigger, black bitch, not being able to vote, etc. My father grew up in that era. In fact, when you said I 'speak of myself as black' because i am light skinned side and you assumed that i was mixed, its actually relevant to this discusssion (and a source of great laughter to my mom and I, its now an ongoing joke). I'm not mixed. both parents and all 4 grands are black. However, I wouldnt in the least bit be surprised if somewhere down the line a femal ancestor of mine was raped by a white man somewhere and thats what accounts for my light skin. There was a time not so long ago, when it wasnt really all that unusual.

So put into a historical context, it makes perfect sense to me and millions of other black people why the comments would be offensive coming from anyone but more offensive from a white person. The presumption is that we are dealing with racism + sexism as opposed to just racism. Does not that compound the situation?

How is that the explanation? Based on some artifically determined set of rules? Your answer can't be "that's the bottom line because Nixluva/Isiah said so". Please tell me you have something better than that.

This is the last time i'm going to respond to this since your density on this matter is beyond comprehension. You think that Isiah, Killa4luv and I made this up? You think that both of the writers who agree with this point are speaking about something that doesn't exist? You think that this point was lost on Coach Viviam Stringer after she heard what Isiah actually said and then she apologized for not having all the facts? I don't know what to say to you except that I feel sorry for you. Not only did you and Trueblue among others, not have your facts straight, but now you refuse to accept the truth and you want to make it seem as if there is no racial component when it comes to any issue that involves members of different races. Our society is now totally colorblind according to your thinking and everyone only deals with his fellow man or woman as a human, without any other distinctions. Man what world do you live in?

Posted by oohah:

1. It's never right to call someone those names, regardless of skin color.

2. Sinners set standards over sinners everyday


Anymore questions or concerns?

Dear Truebloser,

Please stop evading my query. Neither of those lines contained answers to my questions:

1) Is it worse (or better) when a black man calls another black man a jigaboo and spook than when a white man does it?

2) And since you did it, maybe you should drop the holier than thou routine?

And here are another two:

3) Since you want everyone to forgive and forget that you called Isiah Thomas a jigaboo and spook, why do you insist on beating this topic into the ground? Obviously what you said was much worse than what Thomas said. Does that not make you worse than he? What

4) If Isiah Thomas called Browne-Sanders a Jigaboo and a Spook, would you be willing to let it go, or would you try to hammer at it on a daily basis?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 29-10-2007 6:32 PM]

1. I feel it's neither. I understand those specific words do have racial overtones but the B word doesn't. Those other words were assigned out of ignorance, prejudice, and hate. Whoever chooses to to use the words black, white, TrueBlue, etc etc are wrong it doesn't matter what color of skin they have. Therefore I was in the wrong. I told you to link the thread, you have before... so no one ever forgets about what I did. What am I hiding from Oohah?

2. I don't have to drop anything. I'm not acting holier than thou. It'd be nice if I SAY UGH admitted his mistake. Remember he prefaced his statement with I shouldn't go here. If his statements are pure, innocent, and from the heart why shouldn't he go there?

3. Feel free to bring this up as many times as you like. I'll state once again please link that thread into this one. People can learn from others mistakes you know.

4. As long as I SAY UGH apologized for what he said sure why not... everyone needs forgiveness.


Sorry if I haven't given you satisfactory answers. I feel absolutely zero pressure from you and your questioning keep them coming.

Dear Truebloser,

Please stop evading my query. Neither of those lines contained answers to my questions:

1) Is it worse (or better) when a black man calls another black man a jigaboo and spook than when a white man does it?

2) And since you did it, maybe you should drop the holier than thou routine?

And here are another two:

3) Since you want everyone to forgive and forget that you called Isiah Thomas a jigaboo and spook, why do you insist on beating this topic into the ground? Obviously what you said was much worse than what Thomas said. Does that not make you worse than he? What

4) If Isiah Thomas called Browne-Sanders a Jigaboo and a Spook, would you be willing to let it go, or would you try to hammer at it on a daily basis?

oohah

Dear Truebloser,

You have managed to answer maybe one of my questions, why is that? By the way, calling a person a Jigaboo or Spook is not an "overtone", it is a racial slur. Is a slur typed on a keyboard and then submitted really a mistake? How is that a mistake? Did you mean to say something different? Because I think it is a clear indication of your heart.

1. I feel it's neither. I understand those specific words do have racial overtones but the B word doesn't. Those other words were assigned out of ignorance, prejudice, and hate. Whoever chooses to to use the words black, white, TrueBlue, etc etc are wrong it doesn't matter what color of skin they have. Therefore I was in the wrong. I told you to link the thread, you have before... so no one ever forgets about what I did. What am I hiding from Oohah?

But which is MORE WRONG? Come on, stop waffling!! Do you mean you don't differentiate a black man hurling the invective jigaboo or spook different from when a white man does it? It is equally reprehensible? Doesn't that make you reprehensible?

You simply did not answer the following question:

3) Since you want everyone to forgive and forget that you called Isiah Thomas a jigaboo and spook, why do you insist on beating this topic into the ground? Obviously what you said was much worse than what Thomas said. Does that not make you worse than he?

4. As long as I SAY UGH apologized for what he said sure why not... everyone needs forgiveness.

What forgiveness does Isiah have to ask for? Did he call anyone a jigaboo or Spook?

When did you ask for forgiveness? Did you ask for my forgiveness? I don't recall that!

Have you asked for the personal forgiveness of each and every black and non-black member on this board?

Have you asked for Isiah Thomas' forgiveness?

You've got a lot of work to do young man!


oohah

I don't feel one is more wrong than the other, if you do fine.

Dear Truebloser,

How wrong is it to call someone a jigaboo or spook on the Truebloser scale?

Is it worse to call someone a jigaboo or spook, or to state that one feels it is worse for a white man to call a black woman a bitch than a white man?

Once one apologizes,(which I did), It's up for the offended(possibly you and others) to forgive. If they don't there's nothing that can be done about it. I SAY UGH could have(doesn't have to and probably won't) done what Marbury did, Apologize for his behavior towards her and towards anyone he may have offended because he so much as acknowledged in his deposition he was going to do so by his comments.

When did you apologize? Did you apologize publicly to this board? How many accepted the apology? I haven't received my apology from you yet!

Do you have I SAY UGH'S email address or phone number? I would have to inform him first I called him those names on a message board since I never said them to his face, over the phone, through a letter, or e-mail and then apologize to him.

I see, so you feel it is not as bad to call someone a jigaboo or spook behind their back than if you do it to their face! Is that right?

So on the Truebloser scale, calling someone a jigaboo and spook behind their back is not as bad as to their face, no splicing involved!

I think you can write Mr. Thomas a letter if you are really sincere about obtaining forgiveness. You are sincere aren't you? Isn't that what "Trueblue" means? Somehow the sincerity of your remorse for calling Mr. Thomas a jigaboo and spook isn't coming across! After all, as you are implying: You don't think it is as bad to hurl racial slurs at somebody behind their back as it is to their face....

So Truebloser, are you going to make the effort to obtain Mr. Thomas' forgiveness?

oohah

I said that because how would I SAY UGH know what I was apologizing for oohah? and so far in this discussion although according to you I didn't answer your questions to your satisfaction I attempted to answer them and one-on-one man-to-man referred to you as oohah yet you referred to me as TrueBloser. Very intruiging indeed! You appear to still be offended by what I said which doesn't excuse I SAY UGH'S actions but if you are oohah as a man to you.... I'm Sorry!

Sorry, it's too late to apologize to me. You should have done it right away, publicly, to all of us. That would have been "Trueblue".

In any case I don't care what you say.

Now go find Thomas, explain to him the folly of your ways, and apologize. After you have obtained his forgiveness, then I might forgive you.

In the meantime, you should leave him alone on the bitch comment because you have no leg to stand on.

Sincerely,

oohah