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Telling it like it is: The Book of Isiah: Unraveling The Biggest Myth in Sports
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Solace
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10/4/2007  4:05 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

The Marbury trade extended our cap problems 2 years. Thats a given.

Lets say for arguments sake the Suns would always sell their #1 picks for 3 mill each and we paid 16 mill for a 2006 #1 pick which by the way was higher than the Suns.

How did that hurt the team? It didnt hurt our salary cap situation. We were over the cap regardless. So it cost Dolan more money but how did it hurt the team?

Well certainly Jalen Rose caused chemistry issues when he was on the team -- that's one reason he didn't stick around. Technically, if you view this move in a vacuum, this one wasn't a killer to the cap... but *only* because the OTHER moves were so bad! And we just didn't get good value -- we also set a precedent where other teams know they can rip us off. Also, we gave the Raps $17 million for the #20. That same year Phoenix sold the #21 and #27 for $3 million each. Basically we overpaid. If we were going to save the Raps $17 million, we should've gotten more in return. That's why it wasn't a great trade. It hurts the team because we overpay for every single move we make. Isiah's the kind of guy on a poker table that goes all-in when he has a pair of 10s. You need a better risk-to-reward ratio.

Let's think about this. You could go to a restaurant and buy a burger for $8. Or you could pay $100 (why not? you can afford it right?). For $8, it's a good deal. For $100, it sucked. Let's not forget that the cost of any trade gets passed back onto the fans. Why should I, as a fan, have to pay more money because the Knicks GM is incompetent?

I also think that the trade that really put a nail in the coffin for the cap figure was the Crawford trade. Prior to that, I still had some hope of us shedding the other contracts. The next killer was Steve Francis. Then the ultimate killer was Zach Randolph. We're on the hook until 2011 by my estimation.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
COSSUCKS
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10/4/2007  4:59 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

The Marbury trade extended our cap problems 2 years. Thats a given.

Lets say for arguments sake the Suns would always sell their #1 picks for 3 mill each and we paid 16 mill for a 2006 #1 pick which by the way was higher than the Suns.

How did that hurt the team? It didnt hurt our salary cap situation. We were over the cap regardless. So it cost Dolan more money but how did it hurt the team?

Well certainly Jalen Rose caused chemistry issues when he was on the team -- that's one reason he didn't stick around. Technically, if you view this move in a vacuum, this one wasn't a killer to the cap... but *only* because the OTHER moves were so bad! And we just didn't get good value -- we also set a precedent where other teams know they can rip us off. Also, we gave the Raps $17 million for the #20. That same year Phoenix sold the #21 and #27 for $3 million each. Basically we overpaid. If we were going to save the Raps $17 million, we should've gotten more in return. That's why it wasn't a great trade. It hurts the team because we overpay for every single move we make. Isiah's the kind of guy on a poker table that goes all-in when he has a pair of 10s. You need a better risk-to-reward ratio.

Let's think about this. You could go to a restaurant and buy a burger for $8. Or you could pay $100 (why not? you can afford it right?). For $8, it's a good deal. For $100, it sucked. Let's not forget that the cost of any trade gets passed back onto the fans. Why should I, as a fan, have to pay more money because the Knicks GM is incompetent?

I also think that the trade that really put a nail in the coffin for the cap figure was the Crawford trade. Prior to that, I still had some hope of us shedding the other contracts. The next killer was Steve Francis. Then the ultimate killer was Zach Randolph. We're on the hook until 2011 by my estimation.

Even though I think some of your logic is a big reach lets say its all true.
So we paid extra money for a draft pick that didnt effect our salary cap situation at all.

Are you saying that it costs ticket holders more money?

Is that it? To me thats nothing. Especially since I believe ticket prices are set by supply and demand not by team costs.

Lets get back to this salary cap situation for a second. How many teams are any significant amount under the cap? 3?

How many all star free agents switched teams this season in free agent moves not trades?

This isnt to say Isiah hasnt made any mistakes. He has made some mistakes. He took over a horrible situation and had to take some risks. Some gambles pay off and some do not.That happens to all GMs even the Spurs make mistakes occasionally. There is no single guaranteed way to build a championship team. If there was everyone would do it.
Solace
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10/5/2007  6:24 AM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

Lets get back to this salary cap situation for a second. How many teams are any significant amount under the cap? 3?

How many all star free agents switched teams this season in free agent moves not trades?

This isnt to say Isiah hasnt made any mistakes. He has made some mistakes. He took over a horrible situation and had to take some risks. Some gambles pay off and some do not.That happens to all GMs even the Spurs make mistakes occasionally. There is no single guaranteed way to build a championship team. If there was everyone would do it.

If you're going to build a team and go for that franchise player, it's been mentioned that there's three avenues for doing so:
1) The draft
2) Trades
3) Free agent signings

We'll blissfully ignored #3 entirely, since no franchise player is signing for the MLE. Even when we have signed MLE players, we've made some terrible signings (Vin Baker, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries). We've undercut most of our odds at #1 as well, since we traded away unprotected picks and completedly swung and missed with the Frye selection. That means that our big reliance of finding a franchise player has been #2 -- a technique that works only in a few circumstances and is really based on two factors: a) luck that a franchise player (and usually not a young one either) forces his team to trade him and 2) that you have the assets to trade for him. Unfortunately, by not putting more into the draft and the making smart free agent signings, we haven't had the assets to make a trade when a franchise player has come along. So, ultimately you get back to mismanagement. The team is not in the best chance to succeed, not in a likely chance to succeed. It's being run as if to ignore proven methods and try Isiah's own thing. Currently as that's been done, we're *hoping* to be a .500 team in year 4.5.

While we're at it, the point missed is that getting under the cap happily plays into fulfilling the franchise player in the other ways as well. It gives us *valuable* trade assets when we can sign someone. Furthermore, being under the cap gives us a time of not having any high-priced vets, which often gives a bias towards losing. Losing is very good if you want to win the draft.

[Edited by - Solace on Oct 05 2007 06:26 AM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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10/5/2007  8:11 AM
Solace - three franchise questions:

1. in order top 3 draft selection, how bad does a team need to be?

2. the "franchise" player trades of Kareem, Wilt and Shaq amount to 3 in ... hold up.. what is that ... 35 years?

3. what "franchise" players have ever been signed as free agents in their prime?
once a knick always a knick
Marv
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10/5/2007  8:37 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Solace - three franchise questions:

1. in order top 3 draft selection, how bad does a team need to be?

2. the "franchise" player trades of Kareem, Wilt and Shaq amount to 3 in ... hold up.. what is that ... 35 years?

3. what "franchise" players have ever been signed as free agents in their prime?

the pistons picked up a #2 pick via trade. unfortunately joe spent it on darko rather than dwade, melo or bosch.

chicago just got a #2 pick via trade.

celtics picked up #2 and 3 via trades, spent them on len bias and kevin mchale. not to mention picking up parish in a trade. and of course if it weren’t for killer cocaine, the history of the celtic and laker franchisees would have likely played out quite differently.

and didn't worthy come to the lakers as a #1 via a trade?


[Edited by - marv on 10-05-2007 08:39 AM]
djsunyc
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10/5/2007  9:07 AM
1. isiah tried to become the owner of the raptors, when that didn't work out, he left.
2. isiah tried to save the cba and make it an nba minor league system. when that didn't work, he filed for bankruptcy.

those are the two previous stops where isiah was a top line executive. you can spin the situation anyway you want it, but it basically comes down to isiah making a decision to do something at an executive level and failing at it.

now, as an executive of the knicks, not only did he make some bad coaching decisions, but he became a big part of the frat boy management culture at cablevision and has been found liable for sexual harrassment.

forget the roster he inherited, forget the trades he made, just as a business man at a high level - he has made POOR decisions.
misterearl
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10/5/2007  9:19 AM
Reverse Backspin

1. Isiah tried to purchase the Raptors, after building the team with a series of shrewd roster moves? That putz!

2. the CBA deal is perpetually misrepresented. Isiah signed that deal with the understanding the CBA would become a minor league feeder system for the NBA. What happens? The NBA suddenly steps in and organizes the NBDL and guess what? ... all bets are off. Think about it, who painted Isiah as a "savior" of the CBA?

Is it Isiah's responsibility that the NBA chose the route it did when it did?
once a knick always a knick
Marv
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10/5/2007  9:23 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Reverse Backspin

1. Isiah tried to purchase the Raptors, after building the team with a series of shrewd roster moves? That putz!

2. the CBA deal is perpetually misrepresented. Isiah signed that deal with the understanding the CBA would become a minor league feeder system for the NBA. What happens? The NBA suddenly steps in and organizes the NBDL and guess what? ... all bets are off. Think about it, who painted Isiah as a "savior" of the CBA?

Is it Isiah's responsibility that the NBA chose the route it did when it did?

then why do all other business associates of his in the cba decry his abominable management style and blame him for its demise?
djsunyc
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10/5/2007  9:55 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Reverse Backspin

1. Isiah tried to purchase the Raptors, after building the team with a series of shrewd roster moves? That putz!

2. the CBA deal is perpetually misrepresented. Isiah signed that deal with the understanding the CBA would become a minor league feeder system for the NBA. What happens? The NBA suddenly steps in and organizes the NBDL and guess what? ... all bets are off. Think about it, who painted Isiah as a "savior" of the CBA?

Is it Isiah's responsibility that the NBA chose the route it did when it did?

earl - isiah had every right to try and purchase the raptors. good for him. but ultimately, that decision proved to be the wrong one.

same goes for the cba. isiah purchased it hoping he could make it a minor league system. his plan turned out to fail b/c the nba didn't want to do business with him.

the point is that he has not made successful decisions in things he tried to set out to do. there's a pattern in his executive days.

maybe he is a good gm or maybe he's just a very good bball scout, but when it comes to making big decisions at an executive level - he doesn't seem to be making successful ones.
Andrew
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10/5/2007  9:56 AM
Posted by misterearl:

What happens? The NBA suddenly steps in and organizes the NBDL and guess what? ... all bets are off.

And by this you mean that the NBA made an offer to buy the CBA, which was declined, so they went in a different direction and created the NBDL.
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Nalod
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10/5/2007  10:32 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10052007/sports/knicks/easy_to_doubt_thomas.htm

Petes back!
islesfan
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10/5/2007  11:29 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Reverse Backspin

1. Isiah tried to purchase the Raptors, after building the team with a series of shrewd roster moves? That putz!

2. the CBA deal is perpetually misrepresented. Isiah signed that deal with the understanding the CBA would become a minor league feeder system for the NBA. What happens? The NBA suddenly steps in and organizes the NBDL and guess what? ... all bets are off. Think about it, who painted Isiah as a "savior" of the CBA?

Is it Isiah's responsibility that the NBA chose the route it did when it did?

You are so full of crap.

Isiah thought he could make a killing with the CBA by selling it to the NBA. Being an NBA executive (GM of the Raptors) he was probably privy to the knowledge that the NBA wanted to build/acquire a minor league system. That's the only reason he got involved with it in the first place.

The NBA made on offer that wasn't nearly what Isiah wanted and he refused, telling them that it would take much more than that to get a ready made minor league system. The NBA decided it would be better and cheaper to start their own, which they did.

As soon as the NBA went in another direction and realized that the CBA would be nothing but an independent league, he ran it into the ground, declared bankruptcy and abandoned it for a high paying Pacers coaching job.

Those are the facts. Stop with the spin you old fool.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
MODI
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10/5/2007  5:04 PM
Whats up;

--I don't know COSSUCKS but was led to this site through the backlink information. Not a hard one to figure out. I don't need aliases, i can post my own name all on my own

-- I actually appreciated that youtube video of Cosell and Lupica and plan on using it. There was actually a time when Lupica was a great writer around 1978-1985. Somewhere along the line he just went wrong. Athletes arent the only ones who need to hang 'em up!

Solace, your detail is appreciated. My response:


1) Clarence Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris: this was inconsequential on both sides. Did you say Weatherspoon as "dominant rebounder"? After one more season Weatherspoon was out of the NBA. Amazing that the Knicks didn't pick him back up for his domination on the boards...

2) Marbury trade: i have already detailed in the Salary cap myth why Marbury's contract is a non-issue http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131, but that is an expected criticism. but what I can't understand is how and you criticize Isiah for letting go of the young guys too soon (Lampe), but Lampe is OUT OF THE LEAGUE now.

3) Keith Van Horn, Michael Doleac, second rounder (or was it two?) for Nazr Mohammed, Tim Thomas

You give this trade an "F"! this was only an interim trade as Nazi was used to get David Lee and Mardy Collins!!!!!!! Keith Van Horn is OUT-OF-THE LEAGUE! and nazi now rides the pine.

4) Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Frank Williams, Cesary Trybanski for Jerome Williams, Jamal Crawford
Grade: C
Again, Frank Williams is OUT-OF-THE LEAGUE. Isiah should be PRAISED for this. He is such a good judge of young talent that he knows when they suck. If frank Williams and Lampe were good they would be in the league.


Solace, I reprinted your post and planned to go down the list, one by one since you put time in,, but I just can't take it anymore as I keep going. This is just too painful. No disrespect, but this just hurts. You are giving greater value to a bunch of retired guys than young guys between 22-25 with a future. I never ever thought in a million years that i would have to explain the concept that a player has to BE IN UNIFORM to help the team!
MODI
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10/5/2007  5:24 PM
Panos states: "Exactly the point. Modi Cossucks, you guys want to conveniently translate players into other players by discarding the parts of the trades that don't promote your views. If you want to look at the whole picture, look at the draft picks traded away #2, #9, and the straightjacket he has put us in with the salary cap. Is he a good drafter, I'd likely say yes. But he still completely busted with the single lottery pick that he didn't give away. Frye was a bust. Add it all up, as you want to do = collection of overpaid longterm contracts + role player level youth."

A number of people keep stating this same concern. The reason "parts are discarded" is only if those parts are inconsequential for EITHER side of the trade. If the traded person is no longer in the league or riding the end of a bench, then they are dropped from the discussion for simplification purposes. It has absolutely nothing to do with "promoting your views". It has to do with common sense. Any equation that I have put forth has factored in the #2 and #9 pick already. The meaninglessness of large contracts and the the salary cap has been address in full detail already: http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131

Every single piece that isiah was given has been turned into a better piece. His only real trade mistake of any significance (francis) was rectified with the randolph trade
islesfan
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10/5/2007  5:45 PM
1. The Salary Cap isn't a myth.

2. The young guys they gave up in the Marbury trade that hurt were the 2 unprotected #1 picks.

It's really easy to defend something when you leave out some pertinent facts and completely dismiss others.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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10/5/2007  5:46 PM
Posted by MODI:

Panos states: "Exactly the point. Modi Cossucks, you guys want to conveniently translate players into other players by discarding the parts of the trades that don't promote your views. If you want to look at the whole picture, look at the draft picks traded away #2, #9, and the straightjacket he has put us in with the salary cap. Is he a good drafter, I'd likely say yes. But he still completely busted with the single lottery pick that he didn't give away. Frye was a bust. Add it all up, as you want to do = collection of overpaid longterm contracts + role player level youth."

A number of people keep stating this same concern. The reason "parts are discarded" is only if those parts are inconsequential for EITHER side of the trade. If the traded person is no longer in the league or riding the end of a bench, then they are dropped from the discussion for simplification purposes. It has absolutely nothing to do with "promoting your views". It has to do with common sense. Any equation that I have put forth has factored in the #2 and #9 pick already. The meaninglessness of large contracts and the the salary cap has been address in full detail already: http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131

Every single piece that isiah was given has been turned into a better piece. His only real trade mistake of any significance (francis) was rectified with the randolph trade

You're assuming Zach isn't a mistake or worse an even bigger one.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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10/5/2007  5:50 PM
There's so much bias when it comes to defending the Knicks. Take for instance there are still several million Knick Fans who feel the trade between us and the Bulls was


Curry, Chandler, and Balkman

4

Tyrus and Noah


These are the kind of nitwitted individuals we're dealing with on a daily basis.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 10-05-2007 5:00 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Solace
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10/5/2007  6:22 PM
Posted by MODI:

Whats up;

--I don't know COSSUCKS but was led to this site through the backlink information. Not a hard one to figure out. I don't need aliases, i can post my own name all on my own

-- I actually appreciated that youtube video of Cosell and Lupica and plan on using it. There was actually a time when Lupica was a great writer around 1978-1985. Somewhere along the line he just went wrong. Athletes arent the only ones who need to hang 'em up!

Solace, your detail is appreciated. My response:


1) Clarence Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris: this was inconsequential on both sides. Did you say Weatherspoon as "dominant rebounder"? After one more season Weatherspoon was out of the NBA. Amazing that the Knicks didn't pick him back up for his domination on the boards...

2) Marbury trade: i have already detailed in the Salary cap myth why Marbury's contract is a non-issue http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131, but that is an expected criticism. but what I can't understand is how and you criticize Isiah for letting go of the young guys too soon (Lampe), but Lampe is OUT OF THE LEAGUE now.

3) Keith Van Horn, Michael Doleac, second rounder (or was it two?) for Nazr Mohammed, Tim Thomas

You give this trade an "F"! this was only an interim trade as Nazi was used to get David Lee and Mardy Collins!!!!!!! Keith Van Horn is OUT-OF-THE LEAGUE! and nazi now rides the pine.

4) Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Frank Williams, Cesary Trybanski for Jerome Williams, Jamal Crawford
Grade: C
Again, Frank Williams is OUT-OF-THE LEAGUE. Isiah should be PRAISED for this. He is such a good judge of young talent that he knows when they suck. If frank Williams and Lampe were good they would be in the league.


Solace, I reprinted your post and planned to go down the list, one by one since you put time in,, but I just can't take it anymore as I keep going. This is just too painful. No disrespect, but this just hurts. You are giving greater value to a bunch of retired guys than young guys between 22-25 with a future. I never ever thought in a million years that i would have to explain the concept that a player has to BE IN UNIFORM to help the team!

Players are in the league based on opportunity and desire to play. Keith Van Horn is out of the league because of his own free will. He's good enough to still be playing and many teams have tried to recruit him. He's not interested anymore. The way he got tossed around like garbage by Isiah is one reason for this. Younger players need an opportunity to play to prove themselves. The players you mentioned were put into terrible situations post trade and never got their opportunities. You can't assume that the results would've been the same had they not been traded. I fully believe that a player's mentality is a huge portion of their success. Destroy a player's confidence early and they may never recover. What you're giving praise to Isiah for, I actually see as collateral Isiah damage to the careers of multiple young players.

Additionally, how can you give Isiah praise for getting draft picks when he traded away higher draft picks!? If he's such a good judge of talent, why not think that he could've come out with even better studs with higher picks? These facts are disregarded, but then why Isiah makes a "miraculous trade" for very late first rounders, it's heralded as an unbelievable move. Ridiculous double standard.

Furthermore, you CANNOT with a straight face tell me that the purpose of the KVH/Doleac vs. TT/Nazr trade was to get David Lee. Isiah had no idea that he'd be able to make an additional trade down the line. That's just ridiculous.

Finally, your disregard for the salary cap is absurd. I'm sorry that you don't value it, but think about it this way: for those of who actually DO value it, isn't it insulting that Isiah has such a disregard for it? Many of the teams that have been successful have successfully managed the salary cap at times when it benefitted their team. Clearly not every GM is competent, hence Isiah.

[Edited by - Solace on Oct 05 2007 6:23 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
islesfan
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10/5/2007  6:26 PM
He disregards the salary cap because Isiah's handling of it is so incredibly indefensible. You can't even spin it positively, that's how bad it is.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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10/5/2007  7:03 PM
Posted by islesfan:

He disregards the salary cap because Isiah's handling of it is so incredibly indefensible. You can't even spin it positively, that's how bad it is.

If he'd go back to the drawing board and write a better article he'll realize how bad this one was.


Omitting a very important, specific, and default standard of qualification on which to be judged is open admission such individual has failed miserably at his job. When a nuthugger judges I SAY UGH all they do is look at his drafting and trades, everything else is irrelevant to them.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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Telling it like it is: The Book of Isiah: Unraveling The Biggest Myth in Sports
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