Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bippity10:

See you and I are almost on the same page except for one thing. I don't think hustle is a sign of maturity. When I was 10 years old I was still picking boogers and trying to wipe them on girls. I also have a scar that I got from when I was 10 for driving through two gym doors that were made of glass while going for a loose ball(now if you want to say my age led to a low basketall IQ that led to me diving through doors than I'm on board with you. But my age did not effect my hustle). At 13 me and a friend of mine made our AAU coach stay after practice to teach us how to become better defenders. It wasn't because we were mature it was because we both had this innate drive. When someone scored on us, it was painful. It made us angry. I didn't want to just score 30 pts. I wanted to score 30 and hold my opponent to 0. I didn't want to simply outscore him, I wanted to obliterate him. I never once remember a coach having to teach me to think this way. Never once. And all the guys that I played with that didn't think this way, I never saw them change unless they were on a team of 12 guys that thought this way, and this was the only way they could avoid being murdered by their teammmates. That was a the desire of an immature person whose dreams of the NBA died many years ago. So when I see a guy like Curry with out of this world ability I can't accept using age as an excuse for not hustling on the floor. We shouldn't have to wait until he reaches his prime before we expect him to turn it up a notch. On everything else though, I agree with you. The setting is prime for these guys to show massive improvement. I would think, only a player that truly doesn't care would be able to go into this season not wanting to show everything they have. I can't imagine after the last two season's that any player would have the gall to come into camp out of shape. I fully expect dedicated players this year as much as you do. If they aren't and they underachieve again, the garden is going to be torn down by the fans, and deservedly so.

There are no more excuses.

For the record when I go to the courts in my town, because of my dimunitive stature I am often challenged by high school kids to games of one on one. Just the fact that they challenge me makes me angry. I have no second thoughts in beating an invalid 11-0. That anger is innate and tough to learn.

I've managed a lot of people both young and old over the years and I can tell you that I learned a long time ago that I can't expect everyone to be like me. I'm a super hard worker and i'm focused. I don't like to cut corners and i'm a bit of a perfectionist, tho i've kind of relaxed a little bit over the years. Still I know that there is just so much that I can expect certain people to be able to accomplish in a given time period. Some people don't really try. Others try super hard and still don't measure up. Then there are those who try hard as far as they are concerned, but they don't realize that they can do more. Those are the ones that are hard to deal with. They have the talent, but they just don't see the difference in my level of work and what they put into it. To them they're working really hard. Hopefully they have an epiphany at some point and realize that they haven't been working as hard as they really can. I believe that Curry is that kind of guy. In fact I think we have a few guys like that, which is disconcerting, but due to the way we went about building the team, that's what we ended up with.

Now some will get it and get better and others won't ever get it. I feel that Steph got it last year. Q actually got it the year before when he suddenly showed that he could defend when he'd never really done that before. Curry is the worst offender and it will take him longer, but I think he's started to get it.

I kind of agree with you. But the sad part about it is - in professional sport you have limited time to get it. Q has broken body and Steph is at the end of his profi years and his body is not getting better. Eddy still have time to make it and the next season will be the defining one.
Same is true for Jamal and Zach.
To get back on track we need everything to work out perfectly right and the probabbility of this is slim. The way the team was built we took too much of a risk to be optimistic.
But hay... You never know....

Posted by Bippity10:

This is directly from Q's draft net profile. Not sure where you are getting infromation that this is the first year he became a defender. Isiah when he traded for him mentioned that he felt he got a two way player that could "shoot and defend"

Strengths: Strong Character. Super rebounder. Has a knack for crashing the glass. Good defender. Great strength. Very good athlete. Perimeter game is showing improvement. Will be a solid pro at the least.

The point is this. YOu can take a kid who hasn't hustled for 25-28 years and suddenly they get it. It's hard but entirely possible. But having a core group of 5 or 6 guys that you are teaching to do these things, makes it a little tougher.

Again, it comes down to one thing. You don't build a title contender on guys you are hoping one day that they get it. At some point you have to start bringing in vets that already do. And once again I will be proven correct, because when we win, those guys will be on the roster.

Posted by Marv:

Posted by Bippity10:

This is directly from Q's draft net profile. Not sure where you are getting infromation that this is the first year he became a defender. Isiah when he traded for him mentioned that he felt he got a two way player that could "shoot and defend"

Strengths: Strong Character. Super rebounder. Has a knack for crashing the glass. Good defender. Great strength. Very good athlete. Perimeter game is showing improvement. Will be a solid pro at the least.

The point is this. YOu can take a kid who hasn't hustled for 25-28 years and suddenly they get it. It's hard but entirely possible. But having a core group of 5 or 6 guys that you are teaching to do these things, makes it a little tougher.

Again, it comes down to one thing. You don't build a title contender on guys you are hoping one day that they get it. At some point you have to start bringing in vets that already do. And once again I will be proven correct, because when we win, those guys will be on the roster.

let's say some members of this core group of ours aren’t getting it early this season. would you sit their asses down and play some rooks/2nd year players that do? give the whack vets a chance to earn their pt back but if they don’t keep their asses out even though they might pout, even though their replacements might not be as good, even thogh it may lower their trade value?

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by nixluva:

I've managed a lot of people both young and old over the years and I can tell you that I learned a long time ago that I can't expect everyone to be like me. I'm a super hard worker and i'm focused. I don't like to cut corners and i'm a bit of a perfectionist, tho i've kind of relaxed a little bit over the years. Still I know that there is just so much that I can expect certain people to be able to accomplish in a given time period. Some people don't really try. Others try super hard and still don't measure up. Then there are those who try hard as far as they are concerned, but they don't realize that they can do "more. Those are the ones that are hard to deal with. They have the talent, but they just don't see the difference in my level of work and what they put into it. To them they're working really hard. Hopefully they have an epiphany at some point and realize that they haven't been working as hard as they really can. I believe that Curry is that kind of guy. In fact I think we have a few guys like that, which is disconcerting, but due to the way we went about building the team, that's what we ended up with.

but if you have full control over what kind of employees you have, wouldn't you pick the ones that mirror your work ethic?

That's a great point and I would agree that i've tried to do that when I was in a position to do so. Still I wouldn't say that Isiah has total control over that. In the NBA it's hard to both find the player you need at a certain position, also find a guy that has a great work ethic and talent and BB IQ and can play both ways. This is why in a previous post i've mentioned the manner in which Isiah has had to go about getting his players. When he's traded for guys he's often had to make a choice to get a guy with great talent, but a less than stellar work ethic. His hope has been that he can find a way to instill a better work ethic or at least make the best use of the abilities the player has. His drafting tho has shown that he does want guys that work hard and I would say that he has had more control in that regard and he's clearly shown that he understands this.

Posted by Bippity10:

This is directly from Q's draft net profile. Not sure where you are getting infromation that this is the first year he became a defender. Isiah when he traded for him mentioned that he felt he got a two way player that could "shoot and defend"

Strengths: Strong Character. Super rebounder. Has a knack for crashing the glass. Good defender. Great strength. Very good athlete. Perimeter game is showing improvement. Will be a solid pro at the least.

His scouting report from college is one thing Bip, but when Q came here from the Suns his rep as a defender wasn't that high. In fact I remember the surprise when he was really trying to defend. It wasn't like we all said yeah i'm glad we got Q, good defender and also a good shooter. The main thing anyone said about him was that he was a good scorer. You can go back and look at articles on him from his 1st year here and the writers expressed surprise when he started showing some solid defensive games. I agree he had the ability to be a good defender, but he was much more committed to it as a Knick than he was as a Sun. Just as his game was much more versatile than he was able to show as a Sun. This is not a huge point of contention IMO. The main point I was making is that there are guys who have the ability to defend but haven't really committed to it. It's possible to convince them to take it more seriously. That goes for other areas of the game as well.

This is where you are wrong. Q was always considered a solid defender by those that know his game. The media and the fans were surprised by his defense simply because he came from a high tempo offense in Phoenix were the average media and fan just assumes no one plays defense. His D has not changed because the media and fans say it has. He has always been a good defender. See below:

"Welcoming Quentin and Nate to the Knicks family are more steps in the right direction for this franchise," Knicks president of basketball operations Isiah Thomas stated. "Not only does this trade make our team younger and more athletic, but it adds a strong defensive presence to our perimeter."http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2005/06/29/knicks-sun050628.html

"Richardson altered his usual post-up game to adapt to the Suns' fast-breaking style. He led the NBA in 3-pointers with 226 and 3-point attempts at 631."

Q is a true soldier. He is willing to listen to his coaches and will adapt his game depending on what is asked of him. He was a post up player that played defense. Then he was asked to be a three point shooter in a high tempo offense so he did, in one year. Then he was asked to be a perimeter shooter and tough perimeter defender and he changed overnight. Then he was asked to be more of a dual shooter and postup guy by Isiah. He adapted immediately. Never once complaining. Never once making excuses. This is the type of player we need. Isiah wasted two years ignoring these types of players. And now we have a group of vets that have never once shown the ability to adapt like Q. That is why fans are reluctant to say they will definitely change. It's not pessimism. It's not bashing. It's simply asking the guy to show that he can adapt before he gets credit for the ability to do so.

Posted by Bippity10:

So in summary not only was Q always a defensive player but he has also ALWAYS BEEN A HUSTLER, so nothing has changed. We are asking the rest of our core to change bad habits from years of not play d, and now are hoping they change. Once again, not saying it can't be done, but changing the entire core is highly unlikely.

Posted by arkrud:

Posted by nixluva:

All of this still detracts from my point. There is evidence that players who have the physical ability to defend can be convinced to do so. Whether you want to include Q in that group or not isn't really that important. We can agree to disagree on that, but my point still stands, that it can be done and has been done.

We have some young defenders that haven't been swayed to not play D, just because some of our starters aren't great defenders. If this was the case then you wouldn't notice such a stark contrast in the level of D played when those kids come in the games. Not to mention that the roster is being populated more and more with defensive minded players.

Any specific examples when THIS was done?
Teams? Players?