Posted by jaydh:

Posted by islesfan:
The Yankees can say that they have good bullpen arms too. And they have good arms in the minors to call up.

Sure, they can say it, but in their case it isn't true. Yanks don't have a reliever as good as heilman or feliciano. The yanks arms in the minors are unproven, while burgos and smith have both pitched successfully at the ML level for more than a short stint.

Posted by islesfan:

You expected a bat that determines whether the Yanks make or don't make the playoffs for Scott Proctor? What bat like that was available? And who did the Yanks have to give up for a bat that good? ARod? Jeter? Both?

Again, then what was the point of trading Proctor? Why weaken the weakest part of your team for something that isn't needed?

Myers numbers are just as good as Feliciano's, in fact Myers ERA is lower by almost half a run, in the AL.

After struggling the first 2 months, Vizcaino has been lights out with an ERA well under 2 the last 2 months. Right now he's better than Heilman.

Add to them, Bruney and Villone have pitched well. The biggest problem with their pen has been Proctor and Farnsworth. Proctor is gone and hopefully Farnsworth never pitches a meaningful inning again. I don't care how proven Joba is, I take him over Burgos and Smith every day of the week. And I think most Mets fans would as well.

Again, trading Proctor, the way he's been pitching and wearing down, didn't weaken the Yanks bullpen. Bruney, Britton, Karstens, Joba and others can pitch better than the 4 ERA and .300 OBA that Proctor had over the last 2 months. And a young corner infielder with pop is needed since their minor league system isn't deep with that type of player.

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by VDesai:

You need to read up on OPS

V, I like you, but you're being a real ASSH4LE today. Stop implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't agree with you. He gets a good amount of walks and has some power. Congratulations.

His batting average sucks ass and he strikes out a TON.

[Edited by - Solace on Aug 01 2007 2:05 PM]

You're comments make it sound like you don't quite understand how important OBP is. And who cares if he strikes out a ton? He makes a ton less outs than people who strike out less than him. And his hits are productive hits. Guy has an .830+ OPS. That's above average hitting production.

Since June 1: .298/.391/.482 Getting on base close to 40% of the time.

Scott Proctor had a 1.51 WHIP. That's walks/hits per IP. That's absolutely putrid and well below average. He was giving up baserunners every time he made an appearance. Remember, with relief pitchers that's often times more important than true ERA. If he's inheriting baserunners and giving up walks and hits at that rate, he's giving up trouble.

2 more key measures: Wilson Betemit is 25 (some places report 27- but his age was fudged to make him OLDER b/c the Braves were signing him illegally at the age of 14). Scott Proctor is 30. Trading average (and replaceable) middle reliever at 30 for a very talented, high upside position player? I'll do that every day of the week.

With the Braves, Betemit was a .300 hitter. It wasn't until he got to the Dodgers that his average declined. Maybe they tried to tinker with his swing, maybe he just got less playing time, maybe it was playing in a division that favored pitchers and maybe it was a combination of things. Either way, the kid still has good upside. And for a 30 year old middle reliever who has worn down every year, with help from Torre, I don't think it was a bad trade at all. Good value for the Yankees. The Yankees are pretty deep as an organization pitching wise, I think they can handle the "loss" of Proctor.

OBP is a much more important statistic.

Posted by VDesai:

Betemit's actually way more productive than his ex-teammate Nomar Garciaparra, who despite his .283 average, doesn't get on base much and doesn't hit much more than singles when he does. Garciaparra's actually an excellent example of batting average being decieving. While .283 looks good on paper, his OBP+SLG is only .686...well below average and in the lower tier of the league.

I like this deal more and more as we discuss it.

Vizcaino struggled in the beginning of the year, but like Proctor last year, sat down with Mo Rivera who helped him fix his mechanics a bit and he's been lights out since then. Viz might return to earth a little, but he's more than likely to continue on as the effective reliever he has been over the last few months this year:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcxNzM1NzcmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXky

Great link about MO's relationship with Viz.

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by islesfan:

Myers numbers are just as good as Feliciano's, in fact Myers ERA is lower by almost half a run, in the AL.

How bout them WHIPs? I guess you think Myers is just as good or better than feliciano?

Posted by islesfan:

After struggling the first 2 months, Vizcaino has been lights out with an ERA well under 2 the last 2 months. Right now he's better than Heilman.

haha..what a ridiculous argument. vizciano is the best pitcher in the league if you judge him only on the games when he pitched well. Sorry, i'll take heilman and his 1.02 whip, 3.49 era anyday over 4.14ERA and 1.36whip.

Posted by islesfan:

I don't care how proven Joba is, I take him over Burgos and Smith every day of the week. And I think most Mets fans would as well.

Duh, he is a greater talent with a higher ceiling, but we weren't talking about future abilities rather present abilities.

What about their WHIP's? Myers is 1.26, Feliciano is 1.15. Ok, that makes up for Myers having a better ERA. The point is that Myers is as good as Feliciano despite your claims to the contrary.

I'm not taking just the games that Vizcaino has pitched well. I'm taking the last 2 months in their entirety. He came to a new team from a new league, where teams are much better offensively and he needed time to adjust. Based on the last 2 months, he has. Take any pitcher that's used to the weak hitting NL West and throw them into the AL East and they're going to need time to adjust. Why are you going to begrudge him that?

Simple question, has Vizcaino been better than Heilman the last 2 months?

I'm pretty sure Joba's present abilities kick the crap out of Burgos and Smith's present abilities.

Sorry if my tone is sounding arrogant- I don't mean for it to sound that way, but I'm tired, and again, I'm really not sure you're grasping why Betemit is actually a productive player b/c you keep harping on his average and the types of outs he makes, when he's actually making FEWER outs than most of the league and is producing more productive hits than the average player does.

Putting the ball in play and making an out doesn't mean you have a chance- it means you're making an out. Him putting the ball in play more wouldn't necessarily mean he'll make fewer outs. Would he get more hits, yes, but he'll also be making more outs. By being more agressive he'd pass up opportunities to get on base. Taking a walk instead actually means you have a chance b/c you're extending the inning and putting yourself in a position to score a run. Betemit does this at a much greater than a guy Nomar Garciaparra (for example)- who you would suspect is a much better hitter than Betemit cause he's got 50 points better battive average. He's not. He's actually making more outs than Betemit...and when he hits the ball- he's hitting singles (which are only better than walks when runners are on base can move from first to third). Meanwhile, Betemit, for not hitting as much Garciaparra is being more productive with his hits. SLG is not just homers...its total bases. Betemit is going out and making hits that get him farther on the base pads and moves runners on base farther along than the ones Garciaparra gets. Its not obsession with home runs and power hitters, that's a common misunderstanding- its a matter of having productive hits.

This a 25 yr old infielder with above average producitivity. Here's a story that talks about his age: http://old.savannahnow.com/stories/022900/SPTbravesnotes.shtml

Scott Proctor has lost his control and confidence. Its probably because he's been overworked, but he's been brutally ineffective these last few months. But Torre loves veterans and loves his guys- he was gonna use Proctor the way he's been using him over the last year and half...in 10 run games, 1 run games- whenever he possibly can use him. It's his pattern.

Still we have guys that can replace him. Check out Chris Britton's stats with Baltimore. Check out Vizcaino's productivity as posted above. I've also posted on Ramirez and Chamberlain. Proctor wasn't all that productive this year and REPLACEABLE. Talking about a couple years down the line the Yankees have a dearth of pitching prospects who will push out guys like Proctor. When talking about bullpen guys we've got the guys I've mentioned, plus Ohlendorf, maybe Sanchez, Whelan, Marquez, Clippard and several others who could be plus arms out of the pen b/c we have so many guys who are such good starting prospects. Proctor's long range role at age 30 was dubious.

Betemit's hitting well enough this year where he can help us off the bench as a major upgrade over a guy like Miguel Cairo as a utility infeilder, and he can take some at bats at first base. And at 25 he's got great long range potential down the line.

This is the kind of trade you've got to make. I know you keep harping on why wouldn't trade Farnsworth, but the guy simply wouldn't have returned the value Proctor did at that salary. All we would've gotten for him was a little bit of salary help, but no help in the way of players. Yeah, I mean I'd like to trade Malik Rose, but you're not gonna get better value for Malik Rose, than what you could get for like Renaldo Balkman.

No reason to argue any more about OBP/SLG/OPs and Betemit's prodcuvity- just take my word that Betemit will be a lot more productive than you think. I'll lay it on the line and say he'll be more valuable to us than Proctor over the next few years or through the piece that he could potentially help us obtain down the line. I think this trade is a steal for us, and I feel like I've outlined the points as to why.

On Farnsworth I think you misinterpreted my point and analogy. I understand we could eat his salary. But even by eating some of his salary (which we offered to do) we wouldn't have been able to obtain a better player for him like we did with Proctor. That's why we moved Proctor and not Farnsworth. That's not to say the Yanks didn't try to move both Proctor and Farns- they did, they just couldn't move Farns for anything that made sense. Just like we can't get anything that makes sense for a guy like Malik Rose but can get value for a player like Balk.

[Edited by - vdesai on 08-01-2007 3:48 PM]

as for the Gagne to BOS trade, there's nothing we could have done to prevent that... there's no way in Hell i would have given up Kennedy or Melky for a 2 month rental of a pitcher coming off major arm surgery... if there was a shot he'd sign an extension, i may be willing to part w/Kennedy, but Boras is his agent & Gagne wants to go someplace where he can close.