Posted by Bippity10:

So this is where Isiah needs to stick with a plan. At some point we need to say "this is our team". "this is our go to guy". "this is our star". We can't keep changing it on a yearly basis.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bippity10:

Here's the thing to get Artest you have to give up some of your young talent. So again you would be changing direction. Now you are saying that you aren't building from within but are grabbing veterans to fill your void. I think a priority before bringing in a guy like Artest(which is simply a win now move because he hasn't shown staying power anywhere) is finding a PG that can grow with your big men and learn their games so that he can run the offense with them in it.

I agree, I actually don't want Artest. I'm merely stating that Isiah might be looking at him still. I personally think that we have what we need right here on the team already. I think that Mardy can do what we need at the PG position if we just give him a chance. I was very impressed with how he ran the team and defended. I think he's got what it takes and I wonder why there is such doubt about him. He barely played to start the year, but you could see how good he can be when he got a chance to play. If it turns out that he's not the answer, we'll have 2 drafts and a lot of trade options to address that need.

We also still have an outside shot that Nate can continue to develop and be a decent PG. I have some doubts since he's not naturally a passer, but you never know. Maybe he can learn much earlier than Steph that he can win games if he makes others better. With his quickness he should be able to drive and kick like crazy if he wanted to.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by bigbeast:

Isiah does need to stabalize the roster eventually, if its ever going to create chemisrty. However, rightly or wrongly, Isiah's plan right from the start seemed to be to upgrade the roster, and assmeble enough talented parts to package to aquire the star player. While aquiring these talented parts, he seemed wishful that they can steal some victories along the way which obviously hasn't worked out.

Not sure Isiah will ever stop tinkering until he lands that star player. By next summer, he'll have enough parts to package to acquire a star player, albiet, a disgruntled one, perhaps because elite players aren't normally readily available. You have to figure, the stock of these following players will probably rise by the summer (Lee, Balk, Marbury (expiring, and lots of money which will allow a team to move a max contract, Zack if he keeps his nose clean and gives us a bump in W's, etc)

Of course this is a flawed plan, but it is a plan. I think the part about aquiring talented parts explains why he duplicates certain positions (Balk, Chandler, Nichols), (Lee, Frye), (Marbury, Francis). These are all movable parts to Isiah so it really doesn't matter if they all play the same position. For Isiahs sake, he better be in a position to land that star player next summer, or him and his unothordoxed plan may get him canned.

Good post. I agree. Eventually we have to find our center of the future. Find a PG of the future that can grow with him. Find a PF that compliments the center. Find a 2 and a 3 that compliment the one. In other words, BUILD A TEAM. Eventually we have to start doing this pro-active plan. We seem to just acquire best avaialable and then year after year use what we acquired last year as the best available to hopefully acquire next year's best available(regardless of position) and hope that that particular year's best available is the piece that helps us win. And if it doesn't help us win then start the cycle again. This way of thinking is what makes you suddenly realize that you don't have a center and then have to give JJ the full MLE and try to sell the fans on how good he is.

We have our center of the future. For my money the next move should have been a PG that can spend the next 5-10 years playing aside EC. You find the right one and you are guaranteed to be solid regardless of who else is on the team. Now, if Zeke wanted to target a PF that would be fine. I'm not knocking him for going after the PF. But when you look at the pairing, no matter how optimistic we are that it will work, all of us in the back(or front of our minds) realize that there is a possibility that a year or two from now we may have to trade one of them because their games don't mesh. So instead of having the PF/C position set for 10 years, you are starting over again.

I think with the next move Isiah has to grab a player based not on talent, but on how they mesh with Zach and Eddie. A PG that can run the offense, create for them and can lead. We can't keep starting over with a new franchise player, new SG, new c, new PF year after year.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 25-07-2007 4:33 PM]

Your right, it does seem like an endless cycle. But to Isiahs credit (can I even say that on this board anymore), each year the talent (movable pieces) does take a step up, but it still doesn't result in W's. Even when interviewed after trading for Zach, Isiah brought up his numbers (20 & 10). Isiah almost sounded more intrigued by what those numbers can do for him (in terms being attratctive to another team in a trade down the line) than he was as far as what those numbers can do for this team.

Definitely need to be looking for PG next year. As you say, we need an orchestrator. Someone who can see a play develop before it happens and has some sort of imagination when it comes making the game easier for his running-mates. Curry needs a PG who can get him a few easy baskets per game to get him going. He shouldn't have to work for every single basket he gets. A good PG who can penetrate, draw and dish, and has a good understanding of the game should be able to get Curry at least 3 easy baskets per night (and theres your 20 plus per game average).

But as I said, I still see one last charge from Isiah to make one last big splash for the star player. Its the next step, if you have been following the way he's constantly been upgrading the talent.



[Edited by - bigbeast on 25-07-2007 4:51 PM]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by bigbeast:

Your right, it does seem like an endless cycle. But to Isiahs credit (can I even say that on this board anymore), each year the talent (movable pieces) does take a step up, but it still doesn't result in W's. Even when interviewed after trading for Zach, Isiah brought up his numbers (20 & 10). Isiah almost sounded more intrigued by what those numbers can do for him (in terms being attratctive to another team in a trade down the line) than he was as far as what those numbers can do for this team.

Definitely need to be looking for PG next year. As you say, we need an orchestrator. Someone who can see a play develop before it happens and has some sort of imagination when it comes making the game easier for his running-mates. Curry needs a PG who can get him a few easy baskets per game to get him going. He shouldn't have to work for every single basket he gets. A good PG who can penetrate, draw and dish, and has a good understanding of the game should be able to get Curry at least 3 easy baskets per night (and theres your 20 plus per game average).

But as I said, I still see one last charge from Isiah to make one last big splash for the star player. Its the next step, if you have been following the way he's constantly been upgrading the talent.



[Edited by - bigbeast on 25-07-2007 4:51 PM]

Good post BigBeast. While I have been against the Zach trade, there is no arguing the trade in terms of talent and Zachs play on the court. IF this whole Curry/Zach front court is going to workout, it's going to workout because either Marbury or someone else runs the PG and distributes the ball to these two guys and gets it to them in unconventional ways. I really don't see Marbury as that guy, as we know he's never been a pure point. I'd imagine a guy like Deron Williams or Chris Paul would be really good at doing something like this, but those guys are hard to come by. To a lesser extent, a guy like Jarret Jack might be able to do this but I don't see the Blazers trading him. All I know is for this to work we need a PG that can be a visualizer and a distributer on the court, like you've said and I dont see Steph as that guy.

How will Steph react to this kind of role? How will Isiah react to STeph if Steph reacts poorly? Does he bench him in favor of a PG who can get it downlow to Curry/Zach routinely? Is that player even on our roster?

I think these questions are huge and play a significant role in our upcoming season. We shall see...

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by babyKnicks:

how fast did you think isiah would get us a championship when he was hired?

Championship? How about just getting them to be a .500 team?

Couldn't even do that in a pathetically weak conference.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

This team definatly could have been way farhter off then it is now with better decision making. Your lieing to yourself if you don't believe so.

Don't overpay or trade for Marbury sit still instead and focus on the draft(which Dwight Howard & Okafor were comming out of also focus on getting under the cap).
Don't trade for Crawford & keep Mutombo or offer Crawford a 4-5yr contract instead of 7.
Buy late rd draft picks for 3-4mil a pop rather than 20mil.
Don't make the Mo Taylor trade & keep the 2nd rd picks.
Sign Diop for cheap over Jerome James at 5yrs 30mil.
Draft Bynum over Frye.
Refuse to overpay or lottery protect picks for Eddie Curry.
Never trade Ariza for Francis.
Don't sign Jefferies.

That equates to 9 poor decisions that have hamperd the team from being successful. Avoid most of those poor decisions and continue to draft solid the way Isiah has drafted and we not only would have a successful team right now. We would have way more cap flexablility.

You are ignoring the mandate that Dolan had from the start. I'm not really disagreeing with your process of improving the team, but this isn't merely a theoretical situation. There were some real world considerations that Dolan and Isiah had to deal with. Dolan wanted to keep his little empire from going further south. Now it just so happens that his plans didn't really work out, but in that 1st year the team did sneak into the playoffs.

Dolan thinks bottom line and a marquee player is part of his business model. It's like getting some movie star to take a role in a Broadway play. That's what NY'ers expect for their dollar. I'm not saying this is right thinking, only that it's the reality of the situation at the time. Dolan also still had H2O and KT and he's was likely of the opinion that with another good player he could get back to a playoff level team.

1.5 years of that is all Isiah wasted and then we've been dealing with the Curry Era. So to me that's not a long time to wait and we got about the business of getting younger and more talented, which we certainly are now. All that needs to happen now is for this team to win this year and keep progressing from here.

[Edited by - nixluva on 07-25-2007 2:18 PM]

Posted by JohnWallace44:

Ok, first: this is the dumbest most defeatest topic I've seen on this board since I've been posting. We pick up a 20-10 guy and some dude says, "we gotta blow it up.". That is not only unrealistic, its a pansy comment. Let's see what these guys can do and react to it.

I see isiah's reign in terms of complete chaos gradually settling out into controlled progression.

He came into a team that had not only made one of the worst trades of a generation (Camby), but we could not drafts that made you think Matt Millen must have been running the show and a PG that I love for his heart, but man was he boring (Ward).

Now, Marbury was a good move for THAT team because he was a pick and roll master coming onto a team with KT and Houston and later Doleac who were tailor made for that type of offense.

H2O went down, KT had beef with Marbs and we thought we could trade Doleac away and then pick him back up off waivers which failed. So ended plan A.

Plan B was to straight stockpile athletes which is not really beneficial to Steph and I think he's actually slowed the team down at times. We got Craw, Ariza, Nate, Lee, Frye and Q to fit that bill. How they preformed together, I think may have been secondary to the overall plan. James ran with the Sonics as a 30 min a game center and could have worked in that role, but... Curry was out there and far be it for Isiah to let an opportunity pass him by. Curry began Plan C.

Going back to the James and Craw signings though. Were they bad deals? Hell yes. Would a better GM have done something different? Probably. However, at those times we were desperate for players in those positions and acted as such. As we have moved down the line, the deals have gotten more sensible.

OK, Plan C... Curry becomes a low post monster, Steph learns how to play non pick+roll PG and how to score when called upon. 3 defenders are added in Balkman, Collins and JJ2 to balance a team with entrenched players: Craw, Curry, Lee, who are not plus defenders. What worked? Curry's offense, Steph show's flashes of "getting it." Defenders Collins and Balkman show major promise. What didn't work? Curry get's triple teamed when the injuries take our shooters and all the roster shuffling leads to a team that turns it over like the nerdy kid in gym class.

Plan D, back to team building. Seeing Curry's talent and limitations, we needed to make him option 1A. Our weakness in terms of dynamic players was at the 4 spot. Also, as much as Steph developed last year, he will not be fully utilized if he doesn't have a pick+roll partner that is a serious threat.

Oh my heavens, if we didn't find a way to end Curry's triple teams, enhance Steph's strengths and keep Lee where he is a major factor, coming off the bench.

Now, if you have an offense that entails Steph brining up the ball, and running pick and roll with Zach while keeping an eye out for Curry posting up against distracted defenders, what do you need at the 2 and 3 spots that we didn't have? Say it with me now... Spot up shooters who are long lanky defenders. Holy crap if we didn't get two of them in the draft.

Before I get to talking about how figgin' excited I get thinking about how that all fits together, let's be fair and state the negatives.

There are many players we have aquired in this rebuild who would have fit in other scenarios, but who are now useless, ie JJ2, JJ1, and to some extent Craw. What do we do with them? Hopefully they ride pine and like it. Rose and Morris should never see the floor either. For other teams, that would be disasterous. But its Dolan's money folks. Its Dolan's money!

We have a rotation up front that will wreak utter havok on the East on offense at least. My theory is that with an inspired Randolph and a Curry who learned to play without fouling last year and will learn to play better D without fouling this year, we'll be able to go through the season at least without pointing to those two as a major weakness on D.

If Isiah knows what he's doing we'll have either Q, Mardy, Balkman, Chandler or combinations of them on the floor at all times to take on the other team's top scorer.

Are we gunning for a ring this year? Probably not, but are we going to be good? Oh yes.

Most of all, we do not need to "blow it up" fans. Especially not before we get to see one game actually played.

Good post. I agree that I see alot of promise with this team. Really, IT just needs to trim the fat. He should outright cut JJ1 to free up a roster spot. He should then look for a deal to get rid of JJ2. I am confident Q, Balkman, and Chandler can hold done the SF position. We don't need JJ2 and I would be willing to sacrifice Nate or Crawford to get rid of him. The next major decision is whether you just cut Dickau or Jones or whether you try to work out a trade this summer to consolidate your talent. If we look for a player with a 2 year contract, we probably could squeeze out a 1st round pick in a trade with a team looking to be under the cap next summer. Otherwise, we probably will have to cut one of these guys. Our team would then basically be:

Marbury-Collins
Q-Nate or Crawford
Balkman-Chandler
Randolph-Lee
Curry-Rose-Morris

That is a solid foundation and if everyone stays relatively healthy, we should be able to make the playoffs.