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O.T. War in the middle East...
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TemujinKnick
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7/16/2006  3:35 PM
Killa, AI is a sham organization. HRW is better but not by much. Learn what well sourced is. Start with the best up to date coverage on the web of events in this war as they happen:

http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_t.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_t_1.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_t_2.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_f.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_s.php
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/07/the_israelhezbollah_war_part_s_2.php

[Edited by - TemujinKnick on 07-16-2006 3:36 PM]
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Killa4luv
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7/16/2006  3:54 PM
Gaza: Israeli Offensive Must Limit Harm to Civilians
War Crime for Palestinians to Hold Soldier Hostage

(Beirut, June 29, 2006) – Israel's destruction of Gaza’s only electrical plant needlessly punishes the civilian population and has created the potential for a serious humanitarian crisis, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch also said that Palestinian militant groups are committing a war crime by using a captured Israeli soldier as a hostage to seek the release of Palestinians imprisoned by Israel.
“Militants are using Corporal Gilad Shalit as a hostage to bargain for the release of Palestinians in Israeli custody, and that’s a war crime,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “But Israel must minimize the harm to Gaza’s civilian population during any military operation to rescue the corporal, and that includes not destroying vital power plants.”

This is from HRW. Capture one soldier and relaliate by blowing up an electrical plant? Destroying the infrastructure of an area means you are attacking civilians. There is no way around that. Both are wrong, Israel is just way way more wrong in this scenario. And who the hell is pajam news and when did they become the credible source on information?

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 07-16-2006 3:59 PM]
Silverfuel
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7/16/2006  3:56 PM
Killa, people have being saying the same thing about India too. India doesnt get much play in the American media because they aren't a key ally but they have the same enemies Israel does and they are starting to try to respond to terrorism like Israel does. The Taliban sponsors attacks on Indian cities and the Hezbollah funds terrorism all across India. They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country. Frankly I am getting tired of turning the other cheek for these extremists. Will you paint India with the same brush as Israel. I dont think its a coincedence that India and Israel have nothing in common othey than the same enemies. Sounds like its a problem with the extremism in that region.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
codeunknown
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7/16/2006  4:00 PM
Posted by simrud:

Killa I don't care what you'll say, I know you hate me just cause I'm jewish, so go ahead and say whatever you want. As a matter of fact go ahead, do it, I dare you. It will be much easier to communicate with you in the future if you "take the gloves off" and tell us how you really feel.

So cmon stop sugarcoating and draw the battle lines where they should be.

Just remember, in time, you and your kind will join Egypt, Babilon, Rome, Spanish Empire, Nazi Germany, etc. You and your types will be dust in the wind and Jews will still be there.

So cmon go at it, tell me what you really feel like. You can kill millions of us, but we'll still presever you Nazi propogandist.


Think about it, Simrud, why are you getting so angry? Killa, I'm sure, is Not responsible for killing millions of anyone. And I will also bet a lot of money that he is Not a racist. I don't agree with everything Killa has said in this thread - but, at the very least, he posts articles (regardless of what you feel about them) and attempts to back them up. His stance, from what I infer, is quite moderate actually - in that, he is atleast willing to hold both sides accountable for mistakes.

The problem with these kinds of threads is that, in order to talk intelligently about this subject, you need to know a tremendous amount of detail. Diplomatically, I will say that, clearly, some here are guilty of not knowing enough. It is to avoid these people that I didn't get involved in this discussion. It is also the kind of conversation that is dangerous to have on a message board because things can get out-of-hand quickly. Simrud, you are at fault here - instead of arguing your point civilly, you attacked Killa. Re-read the claim you made against Killa and, keep in mind, you don't know this guy - the chance that your malicious comments are false is very high. It was reckless of you to post in that manner.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
dodger78
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7/16/2006  4:03 PM
I really think some of this stuff is going way too far!!! And the personal involvement is too high for some to recognize their retorical faults!!! I think TemujinKnick had a point when it comes to the sources it is nowadays unfortunately not allways right, just to take every writen word as a fact.

Still people need to differ between articles whos goal is the neutral presentation of fact and articles that present a certain point of view. Those two kinds of articles are often very difficult to seperate, still it is essential!!!

The perspective on the recent event obviously differs wether you are an Israeli or an Arab. People dont have to be fundamentalists (jewish or muslim) for this to happen. And I have to admit that I see no real possibility how to bring both sides together, as they are very contrary on very important points of view. I would just wish for some kind of basic respect for humanlife, but I have to sadly admit, that even this is at the moment too much to ask for from BOTH sides!!!
Silverfuel
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7/16/2006  4:10 PM
Posted by dodger78:

People dont have to be fundamentalists (jewish or muslim) for this to happen.
This is true but it is important to mention that Hezbollah, Hamas and the remnants of Taliban are extremists and fundamentalist organizations. And those happen to be the one's responsible for the choas in Israel and India.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07-16-2006 4:11 PM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Killa4luv
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7/16/2006  4:11 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Killa, people have being saying the same thing about India too. India doesnt get much play in the American media because they aren't a key ally but they have the same enemies Israel does and they are starting to try to respond to terrorism like Israel does. The Taliban sponsors attacks on Indian cities and the Hezbollah funds terrorism all across India. They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country. Frankly I am getting tired of turning the other cheek for these extremists. Will you paint India with the same brush as Israel. I dont think its a coincedence that India and Israel have nothing in common othey than the same enemies. Sounds like its a problem with the extremism in that region.

One big difference is, India isn't our #1 foreign aid reciever. What Israel does, is backed and often times coordinated with the US. So the actions of Israel are viewed as the acts of the US. and if there is any doubt, the US always comes out in support of Israel. Militarily and financially and verbally, just to let the world know.

Furthermore, many of these extremist groups, like al qaeda, the taliban and Bin Laden, were helped into power when the US thought it could help a short term goal. 20 years later AL-qaeda is a beast. THe US, is directly responsible for Osama, the Taliban, and Sadaam being in power. You can't help tyrants when you think its convinient and then think they are gonna go away after you empower them. Things don't work like that.

Israel was set up through force on a land where poeple already lived. There will always be conflict about that, neither side is gonna back down, and it was a horrible idea to begin with. Israel is a facist state. No different than Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Religous nuts on all sides making irrational decisions. Palestinians in Israel are treated worse than blacks during apartheid. Israel has been a proponent of state-sponsored terror for decades.

To just call it extremism and offer no context is misleading. Its the same as saying 'they hate us cause we're free'. Those types of explanations reinforce the good feelings they have about their culture or country, but they hardly address the real reasons that these types of things happen.
dodger78
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7/16/2006  4:14 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by dodger78:

People dont have to be fundamentalists (jewish or muslim) for this to happen.
This is true but it is important to mention that Hezbollah, Hamas and the remnants of Taliban are extremists and fundamentalist organizations.

No arguing about that!!! I completely agree with you. Still I allways get the feeling, that people tend to judge THE arab people or THE jewish people and give them the "FUNDAMENTALIST" nametag. I hate this narrow minded view on people.
dodger78
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7/16/2006  4:20 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Killa, people have being saying the same thing about India too. India doesnt get much play in the American media because they aren't a key ally but they have the same enemies Israel does and they are starting to try to respond to terrorism like Israel does. The Taliban sponsors attacks on Indian cities and the Hezbollah funds terrorism all across India. They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country. Frankly I am getting tired of turning the other cheek for these extremists. Will you paint India with the same brush as Israel. I dont think its a coincedence that India and Israel have nothing in common othey than the same enemies. Sounds like its a problem with the extremism in that region.

One big difference is, India isn't our #1 foreign aid reciever. What Israel does, is backed and often times coordinated with the US. So the actions of Israel are viewed as the acts of the US. and if there is any doubt, the US always comes out in support of Israel. Militarily and financially and verbally, just to let the world know.

Furthermore, many of these extremist groups, like al qaeda, the taliban and Bin Laden, were helped into power when the US thought it could help a short term goal. 20 years later AL-qaeda is a beast. THe US, is directly responsible for Osama, the Taliban, and Sadaam being in power. You can't help tyrants when you think its convinient and then think they are gonna go away after you empower them. Things don't work like that.

Israel was set up through force on a land where poeple already lived. There will always be conflict about that, neither side is gonna back down, and it was a horrible idea to begin with. Israel is a facist state. No different than Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Religous nuts on all sides making irrational decisions. Palestinians in Israel are treated worse than blacks during apartheid. Israel has been a proponent of state-sponsored terror for decades.

To just call it extremism and offer no context is misleading. Its the same as saying 'they hate us cause we're free'. Those types of explanations reinforce the good feelings they have about their culture or country, but they hardly address the real reasons that these types of things happen.

You have some really good points here!!! The US IS gernerally seen as the number one supporter of Israel and this is one key argument for the perspective of arab people on the US.

"Israel was set up through force on a land where poeple already lived." this fact is the key to all the troubles IMO!!!
Silverfuel
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7/16/2006  4:26 PM
Killa: I did mention the context. "They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country." You will very rarely find me spewing hate but let me tell you, I have seen my parents city (Mumbai, aka Bombay) getting attacked by the same terrorists that attack Israel 3 times in the last decade. I have feared for family and friends in the post attack riots. There is nothing you can do to please these nutjobs.

You are right. The US and Israel are allies and closely linked. They both get dragged into each others affairs constantly. I dont want to get into the "whose land is it" debate becuase there is no real logical end to it. That piece of land was knows as the Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) since 1030 BC. It is also true that the US setup Bin Laden and Saddam. I know all that and I was not arging any of it, in fact I agree with them. They all seem to be our fault and they are paying the price for it since September 11th 2001.

Getting back to my point: The state of Israel was British Mandated in 1948. That happened in India too. India was split up by the British in 1947. Indians never had a problem with living next to Pakistan but Pakistan somehow just couldnt keep from attacking and destroying the peace in India. They claim India stole their land in many different states. That sounds awfully close to the claims Palestine, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Iraq are making. In the interest of a peaceful middle east and south east asia, think Hezbollah, Hamas and Taliban need to be destroyed and I cannot fault Israel for trying to do it. Do we agree on that?

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07-16-2006 4:32 PM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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7/16/2006  4:32 PM
Posted by dodger78:
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by dodger78:

People dont have to be fundamentalists (jewish or muslim) for this to happen.
This is true but it is important to mention that Hezbollah, Hamas and the remnants of Taliban are extremists and fundamentalist organizations.

No arguing about that!!! I completely agree with you. Still I allways get the feeling, that people tend to judge THE arab people or THE jewish people and give them the "FUNDAMENTALIST" nametag. I hate this narrow minded view on people.
Yes, stereotyping is a problem. It is almost always the ignorant that stereotype people and it pisses me off. I this case though, Israel is taking efforts to isolate, attack and eliminate a fundamentalist group.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
colorfl1
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7/16/2006  5:33 PM
Enough hyperbole... this sheds light on what is really at play here... I believe this really says it all...('');
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13881857/site/newsweek/from/ET/

The Hand That Feeds the Fire

Behind The Crisis: How Iran is wielding its influence to wage a stealthy war against Israel and America.


July 24, 2006 issue - The cool rage of Hassan Nasrallah crackled over the telephone line to a Beirut television station. Israeli jets had just tried to kill him from the air, destroying his home and office. "You wanted an open war, and we are ready for an open war," the Hizbullah leader warned. His missile-armed militia would reach deep into Israel. "Our homes will not be the only ones to be destroyed, our children will not be the only ones to die," he vowed. "You wanted to change the rules of the game? You don't know who you're fighting."
He had a point. Israel's nearby enemy was clear enough. The crisis began in Gaza on June 25, when a corporal in the Israeli Army was taken hostage by Hamas guerrillas. Then it exploded across the region last week after Hizbullah guerrillas crossed into Israel to snatch two more soldiers, killing eight. Israel's reaction was swift, brutal and massive. Its forces took the whole of Lebanon hostage, treating the state on its northern border just as it treated the Palestinian territory to its south, tearing apart highways, blockading ports, blowing up the runways and fuel dumps at Beirut's international airport—setting out not only to free the hostages but to eliminate Hizbullah once and for all. Yes, this was war. Nasrallah was right about that.

But battles—and battle lines—are rarely if ever simple in the Middle East. Nasrallah knows that. So do the Israelis, who saw hidden hands behind the Lebanese and Palestinian militants. They accused Syria, which harbors the Hamas leadership in exile and has a longstanding alliance with Hizbullah in Lebanon, of complicity. But they also saw the long arm of their ultimate enemy, Iran—the creator of Hizbullah, a patron of Hamas, the ally of Syria, the provider of rockets that struck 22 miles deep into Israel last week and a missile that crippled an Israeli warship. Iran, developer of nuclear technology and eventually, perhaps, nuclear weapons.

In an exclusive interview with NEWSWEEK's Richard Wolffe, President George W. Bush said he thinks those suspicions are legitimate: "There's a lot of people who believe that the Iranians are trying to exert more and more influence over the entire region and the use of Hizbullah is to create more chaos to advance their strategy." He called that "a theory that's got some legs to it as far as I'm concerned."

One aim of "those who perpetuate violence," said Bush, would be to disrupt the international consensus against Iran's nuclear-enrichment program. Hizbullah launched its attack on Israel the same day that foreign ministers from the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council and Germany agreed to push ahead with demands that Iran suspend its nuclear efforts. The second part of the Iranian strategy, Bush suggested, would be to "create conditions such that moderate governments tend to step back in fear, and the vacuum would then be filled by the proponents of an aggressive ideology."

For more than 50 years, the Middle East's wars have been the world's wars. Greater powers have used lesser ones as proxies, and battles between large states have been fought out in smaller ones—often in weak, divided Lebanon. But skirmishes can turn quickly to conflagrations, and calibrated violence can escalate suddenly into atrocity with unpredictable and enduring consequences. As fighting raged last week, global shocks were quick in coming. Oil prices soared to record highs—above $78 a barrel—and the troubled skies over Beirut filled with thunderous echoes of the bloody past: massive Israeli assaults on southern Lebanon in 1978 and 1996, and the full-scale invasion of 1982 that sucked the United States into a nightmare of truck-bombings and hostage-takings.

Bush's decision to invade Iraq as part of the "global war on terror" made America a party to the conflicts on the ground as never before. Saddam Hussein's regime, loathsome as it was, provided a strategic balance to the power of a radicalized Iran. Now the invasion has put Washington head-to-head with Tehran. The confrontation is military, economic, political, ideological, direct and indirect, overt and covert—and on several fronts the Iranians appear to have outmaneuvered the administration. Prominent Iranian journalist Mashallah Shamsolvaezin, who is also an expert on Lebanese affairs, suggests that Tehran's next step, far from making war, will be to present itself as a peacemaker. "This will present another opportunity to show its regional power," he said.

At the foreign ministers' meeting in Paris last week, there was general consternation at the Iranian-backed violence on the ground in the Middle East. "But what can we do?" one senior European diplomat asked. "It's all part of the same problem [with Iran], but we cannot tackle it all 'cosmologically.' We have to take it on piece by piece." Each set of players linked to Iran has its own interests, and the Tehran regime itself seems seriously divided. The Iranian challenge is not a Gordian knot that can be sliced through in one bold stroke. It's a bag full of knots, each of which has to be untied and, if possible, untangled from the rest.
Hizbullah: Iran created the Shiite Lebanese militia Hizbullah—the "Party of God"—after Israeli troops stormed into Beirut in 1982. Initially trained by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, the group continues to receive extensive funding and weapons from Tehran, including the arsenal of more than 13,000 short- and medium-range rockets and missiles now being used to attack Israel. According to terrorism analyst Magnus Ranstorp, an expert on Hizbullah who is now at the Swedish National Defence College, Hizbullah's decision-making council normally includes two Iranians. "Hizbullah is not a Lebanese organization, it's a proxy for Iran," says Ephraim Sneh, a former Israeli general and Labor Party member of the Knesset. "Nasrallah has never carried out an operation on this scale without his masters."
On Friday Nasrallah gleefully announced that his group had hit an Israeli warship off the coast of Lebanon. The vessel was badly damaged by the radar-guided weapon, identified by the Israelis as a C-802 antiship missile assembled in Iran. "There are very clear fingerprints of Iranian involvement," Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan told NEWSWEEK. Even so, the officer admitted, "whether it was operated by Iran, I can't confirm." Other senior Israelis were less cautious in their claims. Former Mossad director Danny Yatom says Iranians have been launching Hizbullah's longer-range rockets, like the ones that hit the Israeli port city of Haifa last week. "The finger that pulled the trigger was an Iranian finger," he declares—although U.S. and British intelligence sources say they doubt it.

In a broader sense, nothing Nasrallah does could be accomplished without Iranian backing, but he has also become a power in his own right. Last year, after Syrian troops were forced to withdraw from Lebanon by international pressure and massive street protests, Nasrallah's strength actually increased. The same U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559 that required the Syrian pullout also called for the disarming of militias. Hizbullah refused, and there was no force in the country strong enough to take it on. "Today, Nasrallah is the dictator of Lebanon," says Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres. "He has his own army. He doesn't ask anybody what to do, least of all the Lebanese government."

Nevertheless, Israel says the massive destruction of vital Lebanese infrastructure is intended to show Lebanon's people the price they will pay for Nasrallah's decision to instigate a war. "You know that we are doing the right thing, and that if we succeed, Lebanon would be the beneficiary," Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman told Lebanon's envoy as they appeared before the Security Council last week.

The trouble is, anger against the Israelis is almost certain to grow even faster than against Hizbullah. Many Lebanese owe a great deal to Hizbullah's clinics, schools and other basic social services in the areas it dominates—underwritten, of course, by hundreds of millions of dollars from Iran. When Israel finally decided to withdraw completely from southern Lebanon in 2000, after relentless pressure from Hizbullah's guerrilla attacks, the organization achieved heroic status not only in Lebanon, but throughout the Muslim world. Nasrallah, especially, emerged as a charismatic leader, his speeches carried regionwide by Hizbullah's own Al Manar satellite television station.

Part of Nasrallah's mystique is as a man of his word. He vowed to oust Israel from Lebanese land, and he succeeded. But Nasrallah also vowed to free hundreds of captured Lebanese in Israeli jails. In 2004 he ransomed an Israeli businessman for 400 prisoners, but others remained in jail. By late last year Nasrallah was on the prowl again, looking for new captives to use as bargaining chips in another swap. In November the Israelis announced that they'd thwarted an attempt by Hizbullah to take Israeli soldiers as hostages. It should have been no surprise when members of the Hamas military wing in Gaza adopted a similar strategy last month to try to win the release of some of the 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons.

The Palestinians: There's no more potent issue in the Muslim world than the fate of the Holy Land, and Iran has been looking for a piece of that righteous action since the early days of the Khomeini revolution. As if to underscore the point, the unit of Iran's Revolutionary Guards charged with carrying out operations abroad, including terrorism, is called Al Quds—which is the Arabic name of Jerusalem. Tehran has pledged at least $50 million to help underwrite the embattled Hamas government elected in January. But it's the clandestine ties that are of most concern to Israel, its neighbors and the United States.

The alliance between Hizbullah and Hamas dates back to 1992, when Israel rounded up hundreds of Hamas activists and dumped them in no man's land, on the Lebanese side of the border. The Beirut government refused to let the militants travel any farther, and they found themselves stranded on barren hillsides that were, in fact, under Hizbullah's control. The two groups have serious religious differences: Hamas follows a militant Sunni strain of Islam, and Hizbullah is Shiite. All the same, Hizbullah offered tents and food to the stranded Palestinians, and the friendship grew from there.

Jordan's security services, fearful that their territory might become a base—or a target—for terrorist attacks, have tracked the Iranian connection very closely. Jordanian intelligence sources, declining to be named because of the sensitivity of security issues, recall that by 1997 their government was arresting and interrogating Hamas members who had received, in the words of one veteran security officer, "religious, military, counterinterrogation and even intelligence training in Iran." Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal was living in Jordan at the time, and that's where the Israelis tried to assassinate him. When he recovered, he made several trips to Tehran before the Jordanians told him not to come back, in 1999.

Iran's support for the Palestinian militants only continued to grow. After the second intifada against Israel began in 2000, the Israelis intercepted boatloads of arms sent from Iran or through Hizbullah to Palestinian guerrilla groups. The last ship, intercepted in 2003, was a fishing trawler carrying not only munitions and manuals from Lebanon to Gaza, but a Hizbullah bomb-maker as well.

Meshaal ended up in Syria, where he remains with a high public profile. Last week he met reporters at the Four Seasons Hotel in the capital. His ties to the Syrian government? "It's clear we have bad relations," he joked. "That's why I'm giving a press conference in Damascus." And his links to Hizbullah? "They are part of the resistance [to Israel], so of course we have contacts."

The Syrians: Posters on walls all over Damascus last week showed President Bashar al-Assad flanked by Nasrallah on one side and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on the other. Syria is the go-between, the vital link between Iran and Hizbullah, as well as between Iran and Palestinian radicals. Assad's father, the dictator Hafez al-Assad, always took care to keep control of the troublesome proxies he used against Israel. In 1987, when members of Hizbullah grew so ****y that they started humiliating Syrian troops at checkpoints in Beirut, Assad had several of them lined up in their barracks and shot. But Bashar is much weaker, and much more dependent on Iran—virtually his only ally. Last month Damascus and Tehran signed a military agreement to establish "a joint front against Israel." The pact includes a commitment promising unrestricted passage through Syria for Iranian arms shipments to Hizbullah.

The Iraqis: Tehran scarcely needs Syrian help to infiltrate Iraq. Iran's influence is pervasive there already. The Baghdad press reported last week that the Iranians had allocated $1 billion to develop Iraq's telecommunications industry and integrate the two countries' systems. Iran sponsors book fairs, supports the pilgrimage of millions of Iranians to Shiite holy places in Iraq and provides transportation for Iraqi pilgrims going the other way to shrines in Iran.

Iran also exerts a much more sinister presence. Residents of Basra report that members of the Iranian intelligence service operate openly in their city's streets. Iranian agents are said to have infiltrated the militias, the political parties and the Iraqi security services. U.S. officials believe that Iran gave Iraqi insurgents know-how to build the shaped-charge IEDs that have been so effective in attacking Coalition forces—a technique perfected by Hizbullah guerrillas against the Israelis. Although Iran presents itself as the defender of Shiites in Iraq's worsening sectarian warfare, it has also had at least a passing relationship with Al Qaeda terrorists who have made every effort to instigate a blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites. The late, unlamented Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi initially made his way from Afghanistan to Iraq in 2001 through Iranian territory, and some intelligence reports suggest a more extensive relationship with Iran, at least in the early days of his terrorist career.

Iran's clerics have deep ideological differences with the nettlesome Shiite leader Moqtada al-Sadr. Even so, Tehran supports him and his Mahdi Army militia, which has repeatedly been linked to ferocious death-squad killings. "I used to fight for free," a former member of Sadr's forces told NEWSWEEK, "but today the Mahdi Army receives millions of dollars every month from Iran in exchange for carrying out the Iranian agenda." Part of the program: assassinations of prominent Sunnis and former Iraqi military officers who fought against Iran in the 1980-88 war. The United States would not like to confront, again, the kind of simultaneous Sunni and Shiite insurrections it faced in 2004, but tensions are fierce. "The government is unable to do anything to control the Mahdi Army," says Sheik Abu Muhammad al-Baghdadi, a well-connected figure in the Shiite holy city of Najaf. "This Army is a bomb set to go off in the near future."

The Iranians: When Tehran's chief nuclear negotiator, Ali Larijani, met last week with the European Union's Javier Solana and delegates from Britain, France, Germany and Russia, they expected he'd make some counteroffer to their proposed package of incentives for Iran to stop its nuclear-enrichment program. But no. "If he'd come with a partial response, we could have kept on," said one of the Europeans in the room, who asked not to be identified because of the confidentiality of the discussion. "But he came with no response. Instead, he kept saying that all this was entirely about 'regime change,' so why talk at all?"

European and American officials were surprised by the obstinacy, but also intrigued. Larijani arrived in Brussels with what one described as a "huge" delegation, suggesting the various members were keeping an eye on each other. "It could be that they have not made up their minds," said the official.

Perhaps. Iranian bloggers and other commentators suggest the regime is badly divided over Ahmadinejad's radical rhetoric, and the risks he is running in the confrontation over nuclear arms. Nevertheless, as soon as the fruitless talks in Brussels had adjourned, the delegation went straight to Damascus. And the next day, Nasrallah started his war.

With Richard Wolffe in St. Petersburg, Joanna Chen and Dan Ephron in Jerusalem, Scott Johnson in Baghdad, and Mark Hosenball and John Barry in Washington
Killa4luv
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7/16/2006  5:34 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Killa: I did mention the context. "They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country." You will very rarely find me spewing hate but let me tell you, I have seen my parents city (Mumbai, aka Bombay) getting attacked by the same terrorists that attack Israel 3 times in the last decade. I have feared for family and friends in the post attack riots. There is nothing you can do to please these nutjobs.

You are right. The US and Israel are allies and closely linked. They both get dragged into each others affairs constantly. I dont want to get into the "whose land is it" debate becuase there is no real logical end to it. That piece of land was knows as the Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) since 1030 BC. It is also true that the US setup Bin Laden and Saddam. I know all that and I was not arging any of it, in fact I agree with them. They all seem to be our fault and they are paying the price for it since September 11th 2001.

Getting back to my point: The state of Israel was British Mandated in 1948. That happened in India too. India was split up by the British in 1947. Indians never had a problem with living next to Pakistan but Pakistan somehow just couldnt keep from attacking and destroying the peace in India. They claim India stole their land in many different states. That sounds awfully close to the claims Palestine, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Iraq are making. In the interest of a peaceful middle east and south east asia, think Hezbollah, Hamas and Taliban need to be destroyed and I cannot fault Israel for trying to do it. Do we agree on that?

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07-16-2006 4:32 PM]

I have to do my research on India, it does sound alot like the situation in the middle east.

In the interest of a peaceful middle east, secular progressive folks need to be in charge. Hezbollah, Hamas, and the taliban and small terrorist, (maybe no tthe taliban they are in control in afghanistan), but Israel is a state which routinely sponsors terrorism. the list of atrocities is so long its ridiculous. I don't give Israel any more claim to legitmacy than I do the gov'ts of saudi arabia, iraq, etc. I call a spade a spade, Israel is far from inocent in all of this, and the formation of Israel in the first place was a very bad idea.
firefly
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7/16/2006  6:58 PM
Killa, tell me why the formation of Israel was a bad idea? Before you answer bear in mind that historically Jews have been living in Israel far longer then Arabs. So tell us, please. Why was the formation of a land where jews can live in peace and protection a bad idea? Would it have been preferable for them to have been divided among all the countries of the world, where they could be picked off at ease? I'm not following the Simrud line of questioning here, I just want to know where you opinion of the Jewish State comes from?
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
PresIke
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7/16/2006  7:08 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by dodger78:

People dont have to be fundamentalists (jewish or muslim) for this to happen.
This is true but it is important to mention that Hezbollah, Hamas and the remnants of Taliban are extremists and fundamentalist organizations. And those happen to be the one's responsible for the choas in Israel and India.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07-16-2006 4:11 PM]

While Hezbollah and Hamas may be responsible for for what is taking place in Israel, Palestine and Lebonon, they are surely not alone. Any attempt to turn this into a one sided blame game would be an example of selective memory. While those groups have used/use tactics that many in the West see as unreasonable, the reality is that Israel (and the Western powers who essentially helped create and support it as a state) also have their hands soaked in blood and disrespect for the rights of Palestinians, Arabs and other Muslims.

This fact cannot be disputed as well, as history demonstrates as late as the 20th century through the creation of mandates by Western powers following WW I -- essentially a land/oil/water passage grab, creation of colonies/countries and borders that ignored culture and history (like Iraq) -- and eventually the state of Israel following WW II, which was a highly questionable action, based on the fact that a large number of Jews who lived in Palestine/Israel were from Russia and Eastern Europe, and that the Palestinian people were not taken into account.

Let's not turn this into a situation where Israel are the clear good guys and Hezbollah and Hamas are the clear baddies. Do I personally agree with Hamas and Hezbollah's tactics? No, and nor do I of Israels, which is why I don't think that there is any legitimate argument that can be made for laying the majority of the blame on Hezbollah and Hamas. Their existence is directly connected to the history of that region, of which is very much the responsibility of the West and Israel due to their own actions and lack of respect for Arabs and Muslims history and culture.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
colorfl1
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7/16/2006  7:09 PM
Colorfl1-
I am not interested in encouraging you any further... you seem pretty set in your warped ideology... moral relativism and justification for terrorism as remaining a fixture in our world.

Killa-
“Israel is a facist state. No different than Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. …Israel has been a proponent of state-sponsored terror for decades.”
“Israel is a state which routinely sponsors terrorism… I don't give Israel any more claim to legitmacy than I do the gov'ts of saudi arabia, iraq, etc.”



Colorfl1-
Everyone can note where Killa stands… baseless and outrageously false…

Both libelous and reckless, he has finally made his message abundantly clear... he is importing an extremism of another sort…'');
colorfl1
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7/16/2006  7:27 PM
PresIke: "Hezbollah and Hamas...existence is directly connected to the history of that region, of which is very much the responsibility of the West and Israel due to their own actions and lack of respect for Arabs and Muslims history and culture."
[/quote]

What part of Hamas's & Hezbola's culture is Israel and the West guilty of offending really???

Is not their very existence that is offending these Islamo-facists... Do they not want to annihilate every non-Muslim, or at least force you to accept their version of the Mohammedan faith?!?

Lets not psychoanalyze the facists here... They want to destroy those who are not like them.... no further explanation needed...
Do we have to now start a revision of why Nazi Germany wanted to conquer the world... of course they were so misunderstood... all they wanted was a world without Jews and a single efficient Arian nation...

The Islamofacists are not a reaction to being affronted... they exist as a reaction to being stuck in the dark ages while the rest of the world basks in the 21st century... they hate our way of life and are jealous of our standard of living... and they calculate that the soft Westerners will not have the conviction or appetite to rise and challenge their hatred and love of death...
Nalod
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7/16/2006  7:30 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Killa: I did mention the context. "They claim India is evil and the Hindu dominated government purposely wrongs the Muslims in the country." You will very rarely find me spewing hate but let me tell you, I have seen my parents city (Mumbai, aka Bombay) getting attacked by the same terrorists that attack Israel 3 times in the last decade. I have feared for family and friends in the post attack riots. There is nothing you can do to please these nutjobs.

You are right. The US and Israel are allies and closely linked. They both get dragged into each others affairs constantly. I dont want to get into the "whose land is it" debate becuase there is no real logical end to it. That piece of land was knows as the Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) since 1030 BC. It is also true that the US setup Bin Laden and Saddam. I know all that and I was not arging any of it, in fact I agree with them. They all seem to be our fault and they are paying the price for it since September 11th 2001.

Getting back to my point: The state of Israel was British Mandated in 1948. That happened in India too. India was split up by the British in 1947. Indians never had a problem with living next to Pakistan but Pakistan somehow just couldnt keep from attacking and destroying the peace in India. They claim India stole their land in many different states. That sounds awfully close to the claims Palestine, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Iraq are making. In the interest of a peaceful middle east and south east asia, think Hezbollah, Hamas and Taliban need to be destroyed and I cannot fault Israel for trying to do it. Do we agree on that?

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07-16-2006 4:32 PM]

I have to do my research on India, it does sound alot like the situation in the middle east.

In the interest of a peaceful middle east, secular progressive folks need to be in charge. Hezbollah, Hamas, and the taliban and small terrorist, (maybe no tthe taliban they are in control in afghanistan), but Israel is a state which routinely sponsors terrorism. the list of atrocities is so long its ridiculous. I don't give Israel any more claim to legitmacy than I do the gov'ts of saudi arabia, iraq, etc. I call a spade a spade, Israel is far from inocent in all of this, and the formation of Isra
el in the first place was a very bad idea.


Killa, I would stop. Your looking not so good in this arguement. Your position is obvious and your trying to put Israel in the same vain as vicious hate groups.

It is better to kill your enemy if he declares his intent to kill you. Try all avenues first, compromise, fairness and negotiation. But if he raises his sword, kill him first.

Do your homework. this is not about a few kidnapped soldiers, its much bigger than that.



PresIke
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7/16/2006  7:59 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

PresIke: "Hezbollah and Hamas...existence is directly connected to the history of that region, of which is very much the responsibility of the West and Israel due to their own actions and lack of respect for Arabs and Muslims history and culture."

What part of Hamas's & Hezbola's culture is Israel and the West guilty of offending really???

Is not their very existence that is offending these Islamo-facists... Do they not want to annihilate every non-Muslim, or at least force you to accept their version of the Mohammedan faith?!?

Lets not psychoanalyze the facists here... They want to destroy those who are not like them.... no further explanation needed...
Do we have to now start a revision of why Nazi Germany wanted to conquer the world... of course they were so misunderstood... all they wanted was a world without Jews and a single efficient Arian nation...

The Islamofacists are not a reaction to being affronted... they exist as a reaction to being stuck in the dark ages while the rest of the world basks in the 21st century... they hate our way of life and are jealous of our standard of living... and they calculate that the soft Westerners will not have the conviction or appetite to rise and challenge their hatred and love of death...
[/quote]

My point was not that Israel is offending Hamas or Hezbollah's culture, but that the creation of the state of Israel and many of the actions that have taken place by its military (in particular) is clearly not an example of respect for the culture and history of the people of the region they currently occupy. The people of the state of Israel are not indigenous to the land. They may believe that the Bible/Torah tells them that they have a right to the land, but most citizens of Israel, that are Jewish, are recent descendants of displaced citizens from Eastern Europe and Russia.

If you check one of my earlier posts in this thread I referred the film "The Battle of Algiers" as an example of how so-called "terrorist" groups can be classified as "revolutionaries" who are trying to rid -- what they see -- as their land and the colonizers who occupy and dominate it. There is no question to anyone who understands the problems of colonization that the existence of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas is directly linked to the occupation and domination of land by those that are perceived as "outsiders."

Hamas and Hezbollah cannot exist solely because they are "Islamofacists" and really that is a somewhat unfair assessment of their goals. Hezbollah's stated goal is primarily to eliminate the state of Israel, not necessarily create an Islamofacist state. While they may prefer an Islamic state they have stated publicly that they prefer to do so through democratic methods. These statements, I believe, are part of the reason why the EU does not consider them to be a terrorist organization, and why one can make a reasonable argument in that manner.

Again, I do not condone nor support Hezbollah's means of achieving their stated goal. At a risk of sounding redundant it cannot be ignored that their methods and goals are related to the history of the region. By looking at any deeper analysis of the situation as "weak," a form of "psycho-analysis" (which I assume is meant to be dreaming to those who attempt to "psycho-analyze") one is only succumbing to the very problem that continues to exist through retaliatory violence and a lack of giving any ground that might be seen as "weak."

The rhetoric about we have to be "tough" with so-called Islamofacists is essentially propaganda, misleading and more of the reason why the problem continues to go unresolved. Sorry, not all Arabs and Muslims in the region want to live in the "Dark Ages." If people are "jealous" of "our way of life" (whatever that is) then is killing them and labeling them "evil" really going to resolve the problem over the long term?

Instead of seeing an attempt to try something different than violence as an answer as "giving in" to the desires of those that supposedly want to "kill us all" maybe we should look at most people who live in this countries in utter poverty, uneducated, without hope as those that we should be looking to turn to. I'm not interested in appeasing the so-called terrorists, necessarily, but becoming one who seems to truly want to help turn the situation around in these countries. The problem is our current govt. and others think that violence was the way (i.e. Iraq) when there are clearly other ways to improve the situation.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Silverfuel
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7/16/2006  8:19 PM
Posted by PresIke:

Let's not turn this into a situation where Israel are the clear good guys and Hezbollah and Hamas are the clear baddies.
I dont want to turn Israel in the clear cut good guys. Like you said, they have blood on their hands too. For better or for worse, they have been extremely trigger happy. The Hezbollah and Hamas definitely are the clear cut baddies. They are the same organization that helps promote terror in India and Spain.

If it was just Israel vs. Hezbollah, Hamas, Taliban etc, your argument would apply perfectly. However, Hezbollah's track record proves they support every islamic fundamentalist organization on earth. This is mainly because of Iran and their influence on that region but Hezbollah was pushing Basayev, attacking Israel, funding the Shia militia and Pakistan against unrealated enemies! They are bad and need to be taken care of.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
O.T. War in the middle East...

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