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Knicks may buy out Larry Brown
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nyk4ever
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5/14/2006  1:56 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.

Fish at what point do you realize that this isn't just a Marbury thing. My god man, the owner has issues with the coach that probably goes beyond one particular player. Marbury isn't omnipotent. Hell when Marbury was on the DL the Knicks played some of their worst games. Brown has been accused of sabtoging the team by the Detroit and Philly press. That's not Marbury's fault. When Brown was attacking Francis or Nate was that Brown. Problems between Brown and Dolan is that Marbury's fault. Brown issue is that he has multiple people on different levels of the organization coming at him. Hell you don't know if there are assistant coaches taking shots at the guy to the owner. Other execs in the organization have been pushing Dolan to buyout Brown. At some point this can't just be about Marbury not playing defense or liking Brown style of play. It has to be about the Brown as a person himself.

Have you somehow just forgotten the other coaches that Marbury couldn't play for? Couldn't play for D'Antoni, a team who has had nothing but success the past few years right after Marbury leaves, he couldnt play for Chaney, he couldn't play for Wilkens, and now he couldn't play for Brown. The mud that Marbury is dragging behind from every place he's been is not only clear it's staining the carpet and he's doing it here in New York. When the hell are you guys going to hold Marbury accountable here? In 2.5 years he's had 4 coaches! 4 coaches! At some point the teams best player has set forth an example for the rest of the team to follow and buy into the coaches system but that hasn't happened. Brown was not good this year I know that but dammit Stephon Marbury was worse, you guys continue to coddle him and let him and his ****ing clique run rampant all over this organization. Nothing will be resolved and this organization will go nowhere until Stephon is gone.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-14-2006 1:57 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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holfresh
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5/14/2006  1:58 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.

It's pathetic Fish, it really is.



What's pathetic?....Larry tried his power play and it didn't work...He clearly tanked the season to gain control of the organization...He though that winning ball games wasn't important and he knew the owner wouldn't be happy with that...If you look at the season, because of Larry's antics, it came down to either Isiah or Larry...Brown made it that way, not Isiah...There was no way the Knicks organization could go into next season with both...Larry had to have control to get his players to be sucessful...He proved that he would not have been sucessful with Isiah players...So Larry threw down the guantlet and lost...Now, it's Isiah's turn...Implement his vision or be gone as well...But Larry brought the organization to this, no one else did...So blame him...He wasn't willing to play team ball..The irony is just impossible to ignore...
Pharzeone
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5/14/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.

Fish at what point do you realize that this isn't just a Marbury thing. My god man, the owner has issues with the coach that probably goes beyond one particular player. Marbury isn't omnipotent. Hell when Marbury was on the DL the Knicks played some of their worst games. Brown has been accused of sabtoging the team by the Detroit and Philly press. That's not Marbury's fault. When Brown was attacking Francis or Nate was that Brown. Problems between Brown and Dolan is that Marbury's fault. Brown issue is that he has multiple people on different levels of the organization coming at him. Hell you don't know if there are assistant coaches taking shots at the guy to the owner. Other execs in the organization have been pushing Dolan to buyout Brown. At some point this can't just be about Marbury not playing defense or liking Brown style of play. It has to be about the Brown as a person himself.

Have you somehow just forgotten the other coaches that Marbury couldn't play for? Couldn't play for D'Antoni, a team who has had nothing but success the past few years right after Marbury leaves, he couldnt play for Chaney, he couldn't play for Wilkens, and now he couldn't play for Brown. The mud that Marbury is dragging behind from every place he's been is not only clear it's staining the carpet and he's doing it here in New York. When the hell are you guys going to hold Marbury accountable here? In 2.5 years he's had 4 coaches! 4 coaches! At some point the teams best player has set forth an example for the rest of the team to follow and buy into the coaches system but that hasn't happened. Brown was not good this year I know that but dammit Stephon Marbury was worse, you guys continue to coddle him and let him and his ****ing clique run rampant all over this organization. Nothing will be resolved and this organization will go nowhere until Stephon is gone.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-14-2006 1:57 PM]

That's it, Marbury was bad but what you don't get was that by all accounts from individuals directly involve, those not directly involve, those that were here this year and those that weren't was that Brown was worst much worst. This is where you are clueless, play for Chaney hell Marbury didn't get a chance to know that guy. He was already gone when Thomas was hired. Get a grip man. Eight players complained about Brown, Knick execs complained about Brown, the freaking Owner of the goddamn team complained about Brown. And you have the balls to type to say yeah it was all Marbury. If that's not the defination of insanity then I don't know what is. When Brown called AD the captain of defense while he was constantly getting scored on was that Marbury fault too. Not identifying a lineup or a rotation that he wanted to use throughout the year was Marbury's fault too. Not finding Lee playing time throughout the year was his fault too, huh? His issues with Francis and Rose after asking for them is Marbury's fault? Marbury only played in 60 games this past season. Are you going to tell me that those 22 games that he didn't play, where the Knicks only won 2 of them are also Marbury's fault??
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nyk4ever
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5/14/2006  2:20 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.

It's pathetic Fish, it really is.



What's pathetic?....Larry tried his power play and it didn't work...He clearly tanked the season to gain control of the organization...He though that winning ball games wasn't important and he knew the owner wouldn't be happy with that...If you look at the season, because of Larry's antics, it came down to either Isiah or Larry...Brown made it that way, not Isiah...There was no way the Knicks organization could go into next season with both...Larry had to have control to get his players to be sucessful...He proved that he would not have been sucessful with Isiah players...So Larry threw down the guantlet and lost...Now, it's Isiah's turn...Implement his vision or be gone as well...But Larry brought the organization to this, no one else did...So blame him...He wasn't willing to play team ball..The irony is just impossible to ignore...


Holfresh, everyplace you mentioned Larry Brown there I could substitute his name with Stephon Marbury.. here try it out.
--------

What's pathetic?....Stephon tried his power play and it didn't work...Stephon clearly tanked the season to gain control of the organization...Stephon though that winning ball games wasn't important and he knew the owner wouldn't be happy with that...If you look at the season, because of Stephon antics, it came down to either Stephon or Larry...Stephon made it that way, not Isiah...There was no way the Knicks organization could go into next season with both...Stephon had to have control to get his players to be sucessful

*funny, I thought the coachin having control was the point?*

...Stephon proved that he would not have been sucessful with Isiah players...So Stephon threw down the guantlet and lost...Now, it's Isiah's turn...Implement his vision or be gone as well...But Stephon brought the organization to this, no one else did...So blame Stephon...Stephon wasn't willing to play team ball..The irony is just impossible to ignore...

It really just goes to show you much your argument lacks substance and that your doing nothing but bringing pointless and factless claims. You love Stephon Marbury and you would rather see him succeed than see this organization succeed. Knicks new motto - Let the baby have his bottle, coach after coach.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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5/14/2006  2:24 PM
one question to those about how lb should've adapted to the roster: did d'antoni adopt to his roster?

i ask this b/c d'antoni was hired to coach a certain system. he believed in the up tempo, pg controlled offense where he finds the open guy. he believed a system where if you're open, you take the shot. that was his offensive philosophy.

so did d'antoni adapt to marbury and penny who didn't want to play that system? no, he didn't. the team backed the coach and they traded steph + penny away. and after they were gone, did he change his philosophy for eisley and ward and barbosa who remained at the point? no, he just kept playing his system even if it meant they lost. they finished 21-40.

then the team went after the point guard d'antoni wanted. to the point where they overpaid market value for him. the rest is history.

coaches have a system. did d'antoni adapt to try to win more games with pheonix when he first got there? no he didn't. they were willing to take a hit and remove guys that he didn't want.

brown, time after time, has said he gave marbury more freedom than any other point guard he ever coached. he said he had to simplify the plays down and actually had to take over play calling duties b/c the team couldn't execute. he did adapt.

all the pr stuff, yes, it was not a good thing. he was too candid and handled the press completely wrong. i never backed him on that. but saying he is not flexible and stubborn, while other coaches do the same thing, well i don't buy it. b/c every single one of you guys would take d'antoni here in a second and the first thing he would do is ship out 1/2 the roster.
Bonn1997
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5/14/2006  2:25 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.

It's pathetic Fish, it really is.



What's pathetic?....Larry tried his power play and it didn't work...He clearly tanked the season to gain control of the organization...He though that winning ball games wasn't important and he knew the owner wouldn't be happy with that...If you look at the season, because of Larry's antics, it came down to either Isiah or Larry...Brown made it that way, not Isiah...There was no way the Knicks organization could go into next season with both...Larry had to have control to get his players to be sucessful...He proved that he would not have been sucessful with Isiah players...So Larry threw down the guantlet and lost...Now, it's Isiah's turn...Implement his vision or be gone as well...But Larry brought the organization to this, no one else did...So blame him...He wasn't willing to play team ball..The irony is just impossible to ignore...


Holfresh, everyplace you mentioned Larry Brown there I could substitute his name with Stephon Marbury.. here try it out.
--------

What's pathetic?....Stephon tried his power play and it didn't work...Stephon clearly tanked the season to gain control of the organization...Stephon though that winning ball games wasn't important and he knew the owner wouldn't be happy with that...If you look at the season, because of Stephon antics, it came down to either Stephon or Larry...Stephon made it that way, not Isiah...There was no way the Knicks organization could go into next season with both...Stephon had to have control to get his players to be sucessful

*funny, I thought the coachin having control was the point?*

...Stephon proved that he would not have been sucessful with Isiah players...So Stephon threw down the guantlet and lost...Now, it's Isiah's turn...Implement his vision or be gone as well...But Stephon brought the organization to this, no one else did...So blame Stephon...Stephon wasn't willing to play team ball..The irony is just impossible to ignore...

It really just goes to show you much your argument lacks substance and that your doing nothing but bringing pointless and factless claims. You love Stephon Marbury and you would rather see him succeed than see this organization succeed. Knicks new motto - Let the baby have his bottle, coach after coach.

So then get rid of BOTH! (And get rid of Isiah as GM and get someone to replace Dolan, Cablevision, and Mills--that's not gonna happen, though).

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 05-14-2006 2:26 PM]
nyk4ever
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5/14/2006  2:28 PM
Awesome point DJ. Never thought of it that way but your right. As much as I dislike D'Antoni's system because I believe defense wins championships, coaches are coaches becuase they have a certain philosophy. I don't see anyone yelling about D'Antoni and saying how he's a bad coach becuase he wanted Marbury gone. Good post.
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Bonn1997
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5/14/2006  2:35 PM
I don't see anyone yelling about D'Antoni and saying how he's a bad coach becuase he wanted Marbury gone.
Is anyone saying the reason they want Brown gone is his issues with Marbury?
Pharzeone
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5/14/2006  2:37 PM
Will someone explain what Marbury has to do with the owner of the team saying he wants this particular coach gone????
Marbury played in 60 games, what about the other 22 games. ARe you telling me he mindf$$k Brown into loses as well. BTW, all those games that Marbury was out, when the press start to question Brown's playcalling and rotations, when he said he will do what he wants to do, was that Marbury too?
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BasketballJones
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5/14/2006  2:39 PM
I think a lot of people think there was a behind the scenes power play going on between Brown and Marbury. It seems believable and makes for a more interesting narrative.

In this storyline, if Brown goes, Marbury will have "won".

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 05-14-2006 14:40]
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fishmike
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5/14/2006  2:48 PM
Pharzone its just more of the same of the last 5 years. Its OK to lose. ITs not the players fault. Its OK to show up out of shape. Its not the players fault. Its OK to quit on a coach, its not the players fault. Its OK to not play hard on defense or run a play a coach calls out, its not the players fault. Fire Chaney, its not the players fault. Fire Lenny, its not the players fault. Put Herb on the bench for Larry Brown, its not the players fault. Fire Larry Brown, its not the players fault. Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Mo Taylor, JJ, Curry, Crawford... their careers have been a festival of losing and wrong "situations." Obviously its not their fault.

Its too bad we have these players and this GM that brought them in. Whats really sad is dedicated fans like the ones on this board (some of them anyway) actually think they are good.
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djsunyc
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5/14/2006  2:48 PM
SAS on espn radio:

- it is not official yet but dolan is entertaining it. dolan was not happy with the way lb conducted himself this season. he's made things too public about the criticisms of the players and goes against what the organization believes.

- he hasn't talked to lb yet but dolan felt that lb has slighted him and not happy about it at all.

- dolan doesn't want to go out and pay $5 mil for another coach and that's where isiah comes in. he may force isiah to coach.

- SAS thinks everybody's to blame: isiah, the players are more culpable than anybody else, and also believes that lb is one of the greatest coaches ever but last year was one of the worst coaching jobs he's ever seen him do. and it wasn't b/c he doens't know what he's doing, it's the way he demoralized the players and didn't seem to have their pulse, the way he wasn't able to get the most out of players like he has been able to do with other teams.

- when he spoke to lb after the season he said there is no way on earth he was not coming back and end his legacy this way but he wants 1/2 the team traded: players like jalen, francis, steph, jerome, mo. he wants 6 to 8 players gone. and if the knicks are unwilling to get rid of those players they're telling him they don't want lb to coach.

- the damages are unrepairable in the lockeroom between lb and marbury. but it's difficult for steph to see where he's wrong and it's even more difficult when you play for lb when he'll keep reminding you how wrong you are. if you can't embrace that then it will be difficult b/c lb is old school and won't budge.
Pharzeone
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5/14/2006  2:58 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

I think a lot of people think there was a behind the scenes power play going on between Brown and Marbury. It seems believable and makes for a more interesting narrative.

In this storyline, if Brown goes, Marbury will have "won".

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 05-14-2006 14:40]

One constant was that Marbury believed that Brown didn't really want to be here. And if Brown does leave I believe Brown has won. He gets paid well and gets to move on. I finally want the words sabatoge to finally be issue by someone in that organization. Are you telling me that Marbury also influenced Francis and Rose? Malik too, Q had problems with him. The rookies maybe, but how much weight did they carried. Was Marbury influencing the coaching staff, I know people have accused him of influencing the GM but this same GM traded away another favorite of his up in Toronto in Stoudamire when many people thought he wouldn't. Did Marbury influence Joe Dumars, Bill Davidson? Billy King? Pat Croce? Do you realize that in his 25+ years in the NBA that Brown only finished 3 contracts without being fired or running off? (Clippers, Pacers & 76ers) Is that Marbury too?

[Edited by - pharzeone on 05-14-2006 3:04 PM]
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rojasmas
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5/14/2006  3:13 PM
Blueseats, this team is vastly different than the ones Lenny and Chaney had. We have Frye, Curry, Nate, Jalen Rose, Francis and David Lee, just to mention a few. Yes, let Isiah coach and let's see what we have. LB sure as hell couldn't figure it out.
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5/14/2006  3:15 PM
wow. this is nuts.

OF COURSE the team should get rid of Jalen, Francis, Mo Taylor, Jerome James. those are no brainers, and the former two were supposedly broght in at Larry's request, while the latter pair were two of Isiah's worst moves.

the big question, and the question which will determine whether or not Brown returns is Marbury. Marbury is Isiah's guy, Brown hates him (but really, he's hated every PG he's had but Avery Johnson and Eric Snow and maybe Haywood Workman).

I said both when Brown went in to the hospital in Memphis and Cleveland this season that he was setting up an out for himself - coincidentally, he went to the hospital in Memphis the day after Dolan endorsed Isiah and said Brown needed to be less critical/wasn't doing a good job and he went to the hospital in Cleveland the day after Marbury made his "next season will be different" speech.

Part of me thinks the way to go with this team is to dump Marbury, along with Francis, Jalen, Mo T and Jerome, then stick with Eddy, Lee, Frye, Nate, Jamal, Qrich and two more draft picks and Larry.

Part of me thinks that Brown is a huge part of the problem and will keep tinkering with the roster and destroy our nice young core. If you blame guys like Eddy, Lee, Nate, Jamal, Frye and Qrich for last season with all that went wrong, you have to blame Brown. I think Brown has more to answer for than Marbury, even. Marbury was playing great ball when he got injured and the team never recovered from that fateful week when Marbs went down, AD got suspended and Anucha-gate was made public. The team went 4-17 without Marbury and the only games they won were Jamal Crawford game-winning shots. Brown did a horrible job with everyone but Jamal.

Say Brown gets fired, Isiah is the coach and he brings in Kmart for Francis. It will be interesting. I think the Brown move was a huge mistake - the talent base here is all wrong for Brown. They don't play his way, but his way isn't the only way. How would Brown do with Phoenix's current roster? How would he do New Jersey's? I think the Knicks roster is solid, particularly the kids who are only going to get better. Look all over the league, young guys are having a major impact on the playoffs - Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Nenad Kristic, Barbosa, Livingston, etc.

All the Isiah haters should hope Brown gets fired and Isiah is put on the hot seat - it will be put up or shut up time for him. And Isiah is not a bad coach, he keeps guys playing hard. People say he did a bad job in Indiana, but they were a dangerous squad when he was there and Artest imploded immediately after Zeke left.

Bottom line, I don't think Brown is a good coach for this squad. Also, it's not like Brown is going to stay here more than two more seasons either way. Time to end this mistake. If Isiah can't do better, it's time to end that mistake, too.

I bet the Maloofs in Sacramento have their eye on Brown. That's a much better fit for Brown's style.


¿ △ ?
nyk4ever
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5/14/2006  3:15 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

Blueseats, this team is vastly different than the ones Lenny and Chaney had. We have Frye, Curry, Nate, Jalen Rose, Francis and David Lee, just to mention a few. Yes, let Isiah coach and let's see what we have. LB sure as hell couldn't figure it out.

The team is a bit different but there was one cancer on the team who has had now 4 coaches fired under his watch. Marbury is the only constant here.
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5/14/2006  3:37 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I hope LB does go away. This way all the starbury fans can watch us reach new levels of mediocrity. I wonder if Stephanie will buy into Isiah's system, after he didnt buy into Mike D'Antoni's, wouldnt play D for Lenny and didnt buy into Larry Browns. Hmmm... I'm pretty close to just not watching basketball.


me too....this is ridiculous! I can't root for a Dolan team to ever to ever be successful. This is disgusting. Right now I could careless about the Knicks and their idiot mistakes year after year. I've had enough

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 05-14-2006 3:40 PM]
newyorknewyork
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5/14/2006  4:02 PM
You guys are still under the illusion that Marbury chose not to play for D'Antoni. He only played 13games for D'Antoni. The Suns were constructing to trade Marbury with Scott Layden for salary cap reasons before D'Antoni even became there coach.

He couldn't play for Chaney??? Marbury was added to the knicks on January 12th. Chaney was fired from the Knicks January 15th.

I agree that he didn't play defense for Lenny Wilkens. But lets first visit why Lenny got fired. The answer is because the Knicks had the worst month in there history. So now the question is why did the knicks have the worst month in history? The answer is the Injury to Jamal Crawford our 2nd best player. The break down of Alan Houston's body as a full time starter making him a liability. The fugazyness of Tim Thomas forcing him not to step up his effort with Crawford down and Houston struggling. The lack of depth at guard. As well as Marbury not playing good defense. But I guess it all falls on Marbury's shoulders for not playing defense and nothing else matters. When Crawford was a starter and Houston was back coming off the bench. The knicks got 70pts from Marbury-Crawford-Houston-TT alone. We went 7-4 in that stretch.

Under Brown, the coach just didn't fit the roster. Brown wanted a hard nosed defense, who takes care of the ball, and slows down the tempo. The Knicks just aren't built that way. And it would take more than one yr to turn them into that. Blame the players for stuggling to adapt then quitting because they were tired of being bashed by him publicly. Blame Brown for not putting them in a positon of strength in line with there skills. Blame Isiah for constructing a roster one way and bringing in a coach that needs the opposite to be succesful. I don't see how this only falls on Marbury. Can you truley say that Brown put Marbury in a position to succeed but Marbury failed? Because I didn't see it. Brown is being bought out for PUBICLY trashing his roster making his players quit on him. When he knew what was on the team before he signed the contract. And allowed the moves that were made after his arrival.

But again I would prefer if Brown stayed and we just get him what he needs.
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Pharzeone
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5/14/2006  4:12 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

You guys are still under the illusion that Marbury chose not to play for D'Antoni. He only played 13games for D'Antoni. The Suns were constructing to trade Marbury with Scott Layden for salary cap reasons before D'Antoni even became there coach.

He couldn't play for Chaney??? Marbury was added to the knicks on January 12th. Chaney was fired from the Knicks January 15th.

I agree that he didn't play defense for Lenny Wilkens. But lets first visit why Lenny got fired. The answer is because the Knicks had the worst month in there history. So now the question is why did the knicks have the worst month in history? The answer is the Injury to Jamal Crawford our 2nd best player. The break down of Alan Houston's body as a full time starter making him a liability. The fugazyness of Tim Thomas forcing him not to step up his effort with Crawford down and Houston struggling. The lack of depth at guard. As well as Marbury not playing good defense. But I guess it all falls on Marbury's shoulders for not playing defense and nothing else matters. When Crawford was a starter and Houston was back coming off the bench. The knicks got 70pts from Marbury-Crawford-Houston-TT alone. We went 7-4 in that stretch.

Under Brown, the coach just didn't fit the roster. Brown wanted a hard nosed defense, who takes care of the ball, and slows down the tempo. The Knicks just aren't built that way. And it would take more than one yr to turn them into that. Blame the players for stuggling to adapt then quitting because they were tired of being bashed by him publicly. Blame Brown for not putting them in a positon of strength in line with there skills. Blame Isiah for constructing a roster one way and bringing in a coach that needs the opposite to be succesful. I don't see how this only falls on Marbury. Can you truley say that Brown put Marbury in a position to succeed but Marbury failed? Because I didn't see it. Brown is being bought out for PUBICLY trashing his roster making his players quit on him. When he knew what was on the team before he signed the contract. And allowed the moves that were made after his arrival.

But again I would prefer if Brown stayed and we just get him what he needs.

Don't ever let facts get in the way of a Marbury rant. Don't expect a real response.
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fishmike
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5/14/2006  4:26 PM
so fire LB before he can destroy the young roster. Lets see how many wins Isiah gets out of the roster that he single handedly created.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Knicks may buy out Larry Brown
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