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Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  9:28 AM
Posted by joec32033:
quote: Noone said LB is doing a fabulous job this season. I don't understand why you guys don't get that.

Sorry Joe, that ain't true. To defend one horrible decision and behavior after another means that one thinks he is doing a good job. It was only towards the end of the last big losing streak that the "Everything LB does is part of the master plan" faction even started to admit that it was even possible that LB is not doing a bang-up job.

The job that LB and the players do are mutually exclusive, it's not if LB does a bad job the players by default do a good job or vice versa. The master plan changed when the players didn't buy into LB's philosophy and the way the coach was teaching didn't get through and he didn't try to change it.

Larry's master plan was a good plan his implemntation-how he normally coaches--didn't work and he just didn't change it.

This season has enough blame to go around, but I personally blame the players more than the coach because the half the players that bought into the system were the hungry young guys (Q!, Q2, Nate, Frye, Lee, Crawford....)while the vets seemed to just rest on their laurels and just seemed to give it a half assed effort..(Steph, Taylor, James, Francis).



Master Plan???...how do you know what the plan was?..

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joec32033
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4/3/2006  9:29 AM
The same way you know Marbury is absolutely trying his hardest and Larry isn't....
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  9:30 AM
Posted by joec32033:

The same way you know Marbury is absolutely trying his hardest and Larry isn't....


Who ever said Marbs was trying his hardest?

joec32033
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4/3/2006  9:31 AM
You have been saying that for the whole thread...remember "Marbury is trying to play like Larry wants.."?

Or does that mean he is only giving a half assed effort like the rest of us have been saying and not really trying?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 04-03-2006 09:32 AM]

[Edited by - joec32033 on 04-03-2006 09:32 AM]
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  9:33 AM

I don't want to get into a b tch slapfest, but check that idea of a masterplan at the door....
joec32033
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4/3/2006  9:41 AM
This is called a conversation, a dialogue even. That is a real question. Why is it so hard to answer? Simple question, it has to be one or the other, holfresh...

You have been screaming that Marbury has been trying to play like Larry has wanted. Now you come straight out and say that you don't think Steph was trying his hardest.

If Steph isn't really trying to play like Larry wants, as you imply isn't that a HUGE part of the problem and a HUGE cause of the rift between them?

Like I said, the plan WAS to win now, it was obvious in the moves that were made. Win now and develop with younger vets. Now it is a total tear down because some players are openly rebelling against LB (Steph, Francis-to a degree, Taylor). Things change. It happens, sometime stuff has to change mid stream.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 04-03-2006 09:42 AM]
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  9:52 AM


The plan was never to win now...You can read alot of the recent posting to see what many of us have been discussing...Yes I do believe that Marbs tried to play to the way Larry but did he buy in 100 percent, I say no...Which are two different things..Larry very early on said it's not about victories...Look, of course it's a problem when you best player is not board all the way, but that a small part of what's happening with the Knicks...The Knicks has huge problems and Marbs isn't the main issue is what I have been saying all year...You can't tell me of one guy on this team who can keep up with what Marbs is trying to do for Larry...Not one guy can compliment Marbs to form a threat on this basketball team...The coach is always in the press demoralizing the team's confidence..you have guys who have no idea when they will be playing..A GM who has been marginalize by this head strong coach...And you think Marbs is the problem and thats baffling..

martin
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4/3/2006  10:37 AM
Posted by oohah:
Noone said LB is doing a fabulous job this season. I don't understand why you guys don't get that.

Sorry Joe, that ain't true. To defend one horrible decision and behavior after another means that one thinks he is doing a good job. It was only towards the end of the last big losing streak that the "Everything LB does is part of the master plan" faction even started to admit that it was even possible that LB is not doing a bang-up job.

oohah

I had to stop reading right here. There is a difference in trying to figure out what Brown is doing and why he is doing it - and maybe even agreeing with what/why - and saying that he is doing a good job (and it seems as if your definition of a good job rests mainly with Win/Loss record). No way, bad assumption.

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joec32033
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4/3/2006  10:46 AM
Posted by holfresh:



The plan was never to win now...You can read alot of the recent posting to see what many of us have been discussing...Yes I do believe that Marbs tried to play to the way Larry but did he buy in 100 percent, I say no...Which are two different things..Larry very early on said it's not about victories...Look, of course it's a problem when you best player is not board all the way, but that a small part of what's happening with the Knicks...The Knicks has huge problems and Marbs isn't the main issue is what I have been saying all year...You can't tell me of one guy on this team who can keep up with what Marbs is trying to do for Larry...Not one guy can compliment Marbs to form a threat on this basketball team...The coach is always in the press demoralizing the team's confidence..you have guys who have no idea when they will be playing..A GM who has been marginalize by this head strong coach...And you think Marbs is the problem and thats baffling..


You can believe what you want but by acquiring Q, drafting Frye who was a "ready now" type of player instead of a Bynum or Green, drafting a glue guy in Lee who was ready to play a role, trading the picks for Curry who is an above average center and bringing in Larry who has a short turnaround time on teams (usually only a year or 2)...

How you maximize how Marbs isn't at least PART of the problem is baffling. I don't agree with some of Larry's methods, that is a definate, but I agree with him how I want the game to be played. Marbury is acting like he is bigger than the team. So is Brown. Brown at least has the credibility to sell that idea.

Marbs is acting like the class clown who keeps challenging the college professor in philosophy....The clown can throw up alot of philosophy terms, and ideas (that's all philosophy is) but have no clue what he's talking about, while the professor can know what he's talking about and still hear a rebuttal.

This overblown argument comes down to preference and I would rather have the abrassive winning coach who even the guys he puts down hard (see AI, Chauncy) consider him the best coach they ever had than the abrasive, losing players who can't seem to get along with anyone and everywhere he leaves, teammates are happy to see him go.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 04-03-2006 10:48 AM]
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  2:15 PM


Frye is better than those 2 guys you are talking about..Why would anyone draft them over Frye...Lee is the glue????....He still doen't have a position he can play yet...Frye isn't ready yet...Nate isn't ready yet..I am impressed that you did admit a Brown fault thinking he is bigger than the team...Not many Brown lovers would admit anything negative about Brown...I guess we will agree to disagree with where the Knicks are....

OldFan
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4/3/2006  5:56 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by OldFan:

Marbs wants to decide how the team plays - essentially he wants to coach - but he's not that kind of player. Marbury is not a superstar and does not play smart basketball. You can try to use Marbs strengths but I think it's more about him adjusting his game then the LB or any coach adjusting to his game. The only things I think LB wanted Marbs to change was to start plays not just finish plays, play defense and if the Knicks aren't getting stops slow the game down.

If he allowed Marbs to do what he wanted - the Knicks may have won a few more games - but they're not going to be any good unless Marbs changes how he plays or gets traded.

That sounds right in general, but it doesn't jibe with certain memories from earlier this season. The early cirisis game seemed to be the Orlando one, where Marbs was scoreless and only took a few shots. Seemed like he was deliberately mocking LB. Brown basically said WTF to the press. Shortly thereafter, Steph goes on a jag and plays great. It's not just the wins, I know even a bad team can win a few meaningless games in a row. But I recall how the team played at that juncture. They played well and they played as a team. Steph was finding dlee and Curry. Guys were stepping up and hitting huge shots all over the place. Everyone was hugging each other after the 3OT Phoenix game. And again, Larry was praising the hell out of Steph. He was saying to the press, "That's how I need my PG to play."

All I'm saying is things got real ugly real quickly when the team wasn't playing well after that. I do think this is Larry's pattern. When things aren't going well he'll throw anybody and everybody under the bus. Pat Croce intervened countless times in Philliy to try to chill out the LB-AI realtionship. I still think Larry could have realized that Steph was still hurt and that the lineup had changed for the worse and that the whole team was in a funk. He could have taken steps to promote some unity and regrouping on the team's part. But instead he went the divide and conquer route, and Steph was an easy target for that. You don't think Larry was just waiting and drooling to start quoitng his record v. Steph's to the press? Again, it's not the comments themselves or the whining, it's the giving up on getting everyone back on the same page and playing better basketball together.

Maybe dj's right and the real story is behind-the-scenes intrigue. And maybe Larry really has a master plan in mind that's gonna revive this franchise. I really hope so. And I really hope they make a deal for Steph as soon as possible because it's bad news to have your best player totally alienaated from your coach. This franchise will never right itself while that situation goes on.


I'm not pleased with the Job LBs done. I thought he'd have them playing better ball in the second half and he didn't. But I have a bigger problem with Marbs because although LB handled marbs badly - I don't know if there is a way to handle him well. His ego is just a lot bigger then his game - which makes him nearly impossible to coach.
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4/3/2006  7:10 PM
joec your very right it was win now before the season started,but as soon as management found out they created a mess they brought out the rebuilding word. by acquiring curry, and Q it was definitely a win now. management didnt see this coming. i cant wait for next season, brown getting the players he wants. bye bye steph. since we cant trade the guy cuz of his ego and salary, we might as well buy him out.
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4/3/2006  8:10 PM
I'm not pleased with the Job LBs done. I thought he'd have them playing better ball in the second half and he didn't. But I have a bigger problem with Marbs because although LB handled marbs badly - I don't know if there is a way to handle him well. His ego is just a lot bigger then his game - which makes him nearly impossible to coach.

i am also highly displeased with larry brown's performance, but more importantly, imho, for the hall of fame coach he is suppose to be, his leadership has been disgraceful, especially the way he handled starbury.

i hope by now most of you could see larry brown had his own agenda. this was not a regular season performance by any standard. knick fans got dumped on.

you have to be naive to think it took 82 games to have you believing this was a regular season.

this season has to be the biggest pre-screening event ever to take place in any sport. hey, larry and zeke pulled it off..........only in new york

this season i nominate our gm and coach to the hall of shame
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oohah
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4/3/2006  8:11 PM
I had to stop reading right here. There is a difference in trying to figure out what Brown is doing and why he is doing it - and maybe even agreeing with what/why - and saying that he is doing a good job (and it seems as if your definition of a good job rests mainly with Win/Loss record). No way, bad assumption.

Now you're splitting hairs. We could also say we are trying to figure Isiah is doing or what Marbury is doing and why they are doing it. Would those be called reasons or excuses? Those two are roundly dissed and dismissed. Aren't we basing our opinions of them on wins and losses?

Where have we come to as Knicks fans that we are not judging the team and the coach on wins and losses, but on perceived explanations of why they are so bad? It's not like they improved this year, if we are lucky the Knicks will only lose 10 more games than last year. What a sad state of affairs, there is nowhere to go but up!

Okay, maybe we can judge by improvement. Has the team improved? Even after they started 7-21, I would say no, at least not enough to get excited about. One could argue they have deteriorated further.

And all the explanations of what Larry is trying to do and why. Well, I guess it's all in how these theories are used. On this board they are used to explain why this year doesn't matter, why wins don't matter, and why it is mostly everybody but LB's fault. These realizations came to most only after there was no way this season could matter, whether or not we cared. These rationalizations are a way of protecting ourselves from hurt, and they are all over the place: The team is too lazy/stupid to understand, Larry is losing on purpose to gain control, he is breaking them down, etc.

To me, that all boils down to excuses for miserable season.

Blame to everybody: 1/3 to Isiah, 1/3 to the players, 1/3 to the coach. No theories or explanations needed.

oohah







[Edited by - oohah on 04-03-2006 8:14 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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4/3/2006  8:43 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by OldFan:

Marbs wants to decide how the team plays - essentially he wants to coach - but he's not that kind of player. Marbury is not a superstar and does not play smart basketball. You can try to use Marbs strengths but I think it's more about him adjusting his game then the LB or any coach adjusting to his game. The only things I think LB wanted Marbs to change was to start plays not just finish plays, play defense and if the Knicks aren't getting stops slow the game down.

If he allowed Marbs to do what he wanted - the Knicks may have won a few more games - but they're not going to be any good unless Marbs changes how he plays or gets traded.

That sounds right in general, but it doesn't jibe with certain memories from earlier this season. The early cirisis game seemed to be the Orlando one, where Marbs was scoreless and only took a few shots. Seemed like he was deliberately mocking LB. Brown basically said WTF to the press. Shortly thereafter, Steph goes on a jag and plays great. It's not just the wins, I know even a bad team can win a few meaningless games in a row. But I recall how the team played at that juncture. They played well and they played as a team. Steph was finding dlee and Curry. Guys were stepping up and hitting huge shots all over the place. Everyone was hugging each other after the 3OT Phoenix game. And again, Larry was praising the hell out of Steph. He was saying to the press, "That's how I need my PG to play."

All I'm saying is things got real ugly real quickly when the team wasn't playing well after that. I do think this is Larry's pattern. When things aren't going well he'll throw anybody and everybody under the bus. Pat Croce intervened countless times in Philliy to try to chill out the LB-AI realtionship. I still think Larry could have realized that Steph was still hurt and that the lineup had changed for the worse and that the whole team was in a funk. He could have taken steps to promote some unity and regrouping on the team's part. But instead he went the divide and conquer route, and Steph was an easy target for that. You don't think Larry was just waiting and drooling to start quoitng his record v. Steph's to the press? Again, it's not the comments themselves or the whining, it's the giving up on getting everyone back on the same page and playing better basketball together.

Maybe dj's right and the real story is behind-the-scenes intrigue. And maybe Larry really has a master plan in mind that's gonna revive this franchise. I really hope so. And I really hope they make a deal for Steph as soon as possible because it's bad news to have your best player totally alienaated from your coach. This franchise will never right itself while that situation goes on.


I'm not pleased with the Job LBs done. I thought he'd have them playing better ball in the second half and he didn't. But I have a bigger problem with Marbs because although LB handled marbs badly - I don't know if there is a way to handle him well. His ego is just a lot bigger then his game - which makes him nearly impossible to coach.

good post oldfan, I man how do you handle marbs well. I know this whole mess is not marbury's fault, but he has been a bigger part of the problem than anyone else, if LB is guilty of anything, it is how he handled marbury, but hey, there aren't many other teams out there willing to take on this headache besides us... The suns didn't even waste time with D'Antoni possibly having to war with marbury, they dumped him on the knicks, wise move for them. I am not sure what you guys would consider a good coaching job by brown, I mean would you call 30 wins a good job with this team? does it really matter? It seems as if most of the marbury supporters want LB to just give in and let the inmates run the assylum, and still in the end after they run us to 25 wins, they would still blame larry..... when do we start blaming players?
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holfresh
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4/3/2006  10:31 PM


How does the guy that impliments 41 different lineups, starts players in their hometown, play some vets with less talent for in explicable amount of time, undermine you players confidence in the press every chance he gets, not be help more responsible for this debacle than the starting point guard?...How is that ever possible....If you can't hold a coach who gets paid 10 mil per year accountable for a 19-53 record, then at no time can you hold anyone responsible for anything...EVERYONE GETS A PASS...Please let's do that...

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4/3/2006  11:22 PM
I wrote this on another board, my apologies to those who've seen it before:

Good post bballer, I enjoyed the passion behind it.

I see two main points within it.

1. LB threw the team under a bus.

2. Steph gets unfairly singled out.

What exactly constitutes throwing the team under a bus? We were 17-39 since Steph declared himself the best last season and then lost Sweets, JYD and Kurt. Curry replaced Sweets, but no one replaced Kurt who was our best shooter, best defender, best leader, only two-way player, and the guy most within and outside the organization referred to as our "glue". So from and awful defensive squad with woeful shooting and non-existent leadership was removed the one guy who represented the best the team had to offer in each area and you have what we are now: unglued.

And what has Larry done that validates sucky effort? can someone remind me of his worst insults? I remember "I don't have a head out there" that was broadly directed at Steph, Jamal and Nate, and a very truthful statement that these guys don't know how to close games, as evidenced by all our poor endings of last year.

Then he called Ariza "delusional" when Ariza told the press he didn't know why he wasn't getting to start. Larry said if after all he was told by himself and the coaching staff he still didn't get why he was being taken out then UCLA must not be a great school.

Harsh? A little. Enough for the team to quit? Please...

The other thing that's said to be sooo egregious is too many lineup changes. Well consider how many were caused by injuries to Curry, James, Steph, and Q; and then trying to acclimate new guys like Barnes and Woods, Jalen and Francis; and then giving the rookies their chances...it adds up. And it's not like every change was monumental. Often it amounted to nothing more than Malik starting at SF vs Lee. Largely Marbury, Q and Curry were guaranteed starts when healthy

If swapping out one position a night is going to kill the team, it's not a strong team to begin with. The challenge was for each guy to come ready to play each and every game. Well booo hooo, sorry for the entitlement princes who don't get 40 mins regardless of effort, and sorry for the guys who don't get their millions for little more than waiving a towel from the bench, sorry everyone gets to contribute.


Then from Larry what else have we gotten? A fair amount of criticism, but also praise. How many times did he call Marbury phenomenal during our 6 game win streak? Many. Now you keep praising the consistency of Steph's effort, but even the most casual viewer must have seen a totally different level of commitment from Steph during that win streak. It was some of the best playmaking and intangaibles of his career, and something not seen before or since.

And I'm told it was provoked by an ultimatum to get with the program or be traded. THAT was the source of Steph's effort. That's not a good enough reason to try, that's not gonna take us where we need to go. But we see where things could go when the effort and commitment is there. Pity it only lasted 7 games.

Now it's true, steph got taken out of that mode by the injury, but upon his return does he ask to go back to that lineup to resume it's success? NO!!! he uses it as an opportunity to undermine the coach by suggesting they run NO set plays!!! He proceeds to break plays, and we give up a 71 point 1st half after getting scorched by I think Arenas, and Marbury stays in the locker room to nurse his shoulder for the second half. That was his momentous return to the team ball that won 6 straight.

The only time we saw another uptick in effort was after Dolan came in to tell the team a mutiny will not succeed and they have to keep trying. We win two straight but Marbury has to take the air out of it saying he's sick of being some other dude and is biding his time to be Starbury again.

The dude undermines the coach every time something gets going. The same guy who shortly after Brown was hired said: "I'm not going to change my game, I'm still going to play the way I've always played"

And these are the words from one of Steph's former teammates before the season began "Steph is going to say all the right things about playing for Coach Brown, because Steph will tell you anything you want to hear if it benefits Steph," a former Marbury teammate told me yesterday. "But if anyone thinks that marriage is going to work, well, they've never played with Steph, or coached him."

So Larry knew Steph was gonna be a tough nut to crack to get him to change his game willingly. Now I don't recall when Brown first insulted Steph, but I do know it was just 8 games into the season that Steph was claiming playing browns way was too tough for him ("hardest 10 assists I ever got in my life") and saying he'd only do it if it results in wins. Do you think if he doesn't want to do it, and only will if it results in wins, that he's going to play for wins? No, and that's what we saw, poor effort and foot dragging aside from the brief period after the ultimatum.

It looks to me like marbury has been the one throwing the season under the bus to to prove Brown wrong, and THAT is what gives him his special status. Ask yourself if Steph continued to play at the level of the win streak if his future here, and Browns, and Isiah's, would be at the same level of jeopardy that they are today? Of course they wouldn't, and that's why we find ourselves where we are.
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4/3/2006  11:33 PM
Blue, you gotta stop making so much sense.
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joec32033
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4/3/2006  11:36 PM
^True dat.......It really hurts Hol's argument that LB sucks and Steph is great because he said so.
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holfresh
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4/4/2006  12:04 AM


You know, here is what I'm now hoping for....Steph gets traded, so there will be no more excuses...No more blaming anyone else...Be a man....Be the coach he was hired for...Nothing else...I know that Larry can't win without talent...He never has....He has always been successful with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the league...So at the end of next season when we have 20-25 wins..I want to hear what's the excuse now...Like Antonio Carver said to Roy Jones...What's the excuse now Roy Jones...Then in mid season we will start the Larry boyout countdown....This is the NBA...you don't win without talent...If you guys think that Dolan is paying Larry 10 mil per to win 20- 30 games with excuses...I will bet heavily the other way....

Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..

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