Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Bippity10:

As for the Knicks being mired in mediocrity. All the young guys on this team I'm not understanding all the pessimism. Curry and Frye have as much potential as any duo in the league. He's putting up Bosh like numbers and Curry is still a youth. Who knows what they will be. Curry could be a pain in the ass for a long time. But it's a little early to give up on that Duo. Throw in Butler, Ariza(get a jumpshot), Robinson, Crawford, Lee and I'm not sure what else you expect from rebuilding. NOt many teams have a more capable group of young guys. It shouldn't be all negative in Knickville.

Frye is a nice player on offense, not much of a defensive player but just a complimentary piece. Curry has potential but so what if he doesn't play up to it and he never will if he doesn't improve on his work ethic, which in his 5th year in the league is still a major question mark. Not to mention he's a terrible rebounder and defender for his size. Butler is nothing more than a backup if that. Ariza has no basketball skills to speak of and only has a role based on hustle. Robinson is a 5'7 backup SG, JC is outrageously erratic and inconsistent and Lee is stuck on the bench again. None of that is based on hate just an honest assessment.

do tell, how is a 6'11" 22 yr-old rookie who is scoring 15ppg off the bench in his first MONTH a complementary piece? for someone who laments Isiah's lack of patience, you sure don't seem to have much of it yourself.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Bippity10:

As for the Knicks being mired in mediocrity. All the young guys on this team I'm not understanding all the pessimism. Curry and Frye have as much potential as any duo in the league. He's putting up Bosh like numbers and Curry is still a youth. Who knows what they will be. Curry could be a pain in the ass for a long time. But it's a little early to give up on that Duo. Throw in Butler, Ariza(get a jumpshot), Robinson, Crawford, Lee and I'm not sure what else you expect from rebuilding. NOt many teams have a more capable group of young guys. It shouldn't be all negative in Knickville.

Frye is a nice player on offense, not much of a defensive player but just a complimentary piece. Curry has potential but so what if he doesn't play up to it and he never will if he doesn't improve on his work ethic, which in his 5th year in the league is still a major question mark. Not to mention he's a terrible rebounder and defender for his size. Butler is nothing more than a backup if that. Ariza has no basketball skills to speak of and only has a role based on hustle. Robinson is a 5'7 backup SG, JC is outrageously erratic and inconsistent and Lee is stuck on the bench again. None of that is based on hate just an honest assessment.

Frye-Who knows what he will be. Have a hard time determining star or complimentary player
Curry-I agree with all your points. You also described 95% of the centers in the league and all the players we would draft with the draft picks we gave up.
Butler-20 years old. The improvement from last year to this year is clearly noticeable. Yet at 20 we give up on him? At the moment clearly a bench guy, in the future way to early to tell.
Robingon-I agree. Clearly a question mark. Clearly also a tradeable asset that can get better.
Crawford-I agree. Clearly coachable. Who knows. Too young to tell.
Lee-Too young to tell.

This is rebuilding. Teams that get rid of all their vets and try to build through the draft go through the same thing. You draft 5 guys over three years. One turns out to be a legit player and the other four send you back to the drawing board. Guess what when they are young you can still trade them and all the guys mentioned above are still tradeable and most of them are coveted and asked for in every trade. We are a work in progress. When guys cry for rebuilding this is what you get. Crap. Get used to it.

Listen I'm not happy as well. I don't like every move but this is what happens when you clear out one of the worst constructed rosters in the history of the NBa. You can't fix it overnight. You have to take gambles. You have to take on overpriced vets and give up picks. It's been 2 years for ZEke. Personally I see progress. I see youth. I see a pathetic aged group of overpriced 30 year olds built around McKnee and I saw that turned into a young roster with some potential. I'm comfortable knowing that this roster will be adjusted more and will not be a burden.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by islesfan:

Marv, I want it to be "your" turn but aside from moral victories about losing by "only" 9 total points in 2 losses what other evidence is there that we're seeing a contender built and not just hopeless mediocrity, at best?

bringing in larry brown and giving him 2 young 6'11" guys that can play. i loved the fact that he had frye set up near the basket most of the game friday night. and what happened? he sucked. so what does this tell him? kid, you're gonna get your low post post game together so you can become an all-around killer with a go-to game underneath. we're not going to have a starting power forward who only launches outside jumpers and doesn't bang. these are the games when lb's molding the young guys, the currys, fryes, robinsons, butlers, etc. the fact that they're getting the burn and will learn to play "larry brown" ball is what makes me believe we're building a contender, not just hopeless mediocrity. the rotations and the losses have been tough to take, but i see a team being forged, with something we haven't had in a lot of years - an inside game. i know that until we produce wins there's nothing to back up what i'm saying other than watching the developments and playing tough and all-out on the road like that. i'd like to see david lee too, but i realize larry can't lose malik, ad and mo, which he will if he sits them and goes only with rookies.

And what if Frye isn't an interior player but a PF who likes to play on the perimeter?

then larry brown and his assistants will try to teach him, *IF* thats the case, but i dont think it is.

I think he's shown some nice work in the interior as well. Seriously I gotta agree with some of the other posters...go root for another team. Even if a company was doing poorly, you think anybody likes the co-worker that keeps telling them every morning they're gonna lose their jobs and that armageddon is coming? EVERYONE is aware of the risks and potential -s about this team. It's ok to harp on that once in awhile but you are ridiculous. Fans like to think about the positives of their team and I think we have some realistic potential +s that you NEVER mention.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by islesfan:

Marv, I want it to be "your" turn but aside from moral victories about losing by "only" 9 total points in 2 losses what other evidence is there that we're seeing a contender built and not just hopeless mediocrity, at best?

bringing in larry brown and giving him 2 young 6'11" guys that can play. i loved the fact that he had frye set up near the basket most of the game friday night. and what happened? he sucked. so what does this tell him? kid, you're gonna get your low post post game together so you can become an all-around killer with a go-to game underneath. we're not going to have a starting power forward who only launches outside jumpers and doesn't bang. these are the games when lb's molding the young guys, the currys, fryes, robinsons, butlers, etc. the fact that they're getting the burn and will learn to play "larry brown" ball is what makes me believe we're building a contender, not just hopeless mediocrity. the rotations and the losses have been tough to take, but i see a team being forged, with something we haven't had in a lot of years - an inside game. i know that until we produce wins there's nothing to back up what i'm saying other than watching the developments and playing tough and all-out on the road like that. i'd like to see david lee too, but i realize larry can't lose malik, ad and mo, which he will if he sits them and goes only with rookies.

And what if Frye isn't an interior player but a PF who likes to play on the perimeter?

Oh and for the record. If you are building your team around Curry in the post I think it would be fantastic to have a PF that can shoot like Frye. You have two building blocks to a future team that compliment each other perfectly. Now I can harp on Curry's fat and lack of work ethic. OF course that's there, but his potential is also there so as a fair fan I choose to mention both. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WILL BECOME.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:12 PM]

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by islesfan:

2 years ago I said Isiah was going to bring us to the depths of mediocrity for years to come and so far he's done nothing to dispute that. He continues to bring in flawed players at ridiculous costs in terms of draft picks and money that will sink us deeper and deeper in the abyss.

what did you expect him to do? he didnt have a lot to work with. the trade was made for steph when AH was still healthy, and we were trying to win now while Houston's knees were still good. isiah has a plan(thats kinda dumb to say a GM doesnt have a plan since thats their job), its ok if you dont see it, but it seems like you just hate isiah no matter what he does(and your view of him just reinforces that).

I expected him to tear it down and build it back up with lottery picks and cap room starting next year. We've been through 3 crap years already so what would have been the difference in terms of wins and losses? Of course he had assets to work with. He had every #1 pick, expiring contracts and Dolan's checkbook to take back as many bad contracts as possible as long as they end sooner rather than later the way he did. God forbid he should plan for the future instead of sacrificing everything he has for the present. And by future I mean top draft picks that you can build a franchise around and not flawed players who were drafted late or not at all but given burn because we have nothing else.

Don't many of these draft picks have the same question marks as Frye and Curry and Crawford and Butler? Does ATlanta/Toronto with their high draft picks have anymore future potential than the Knicks guys. Do Bosh and Villanueva and Stoudemire and the rest of these guys not have question marks? YOu need a star. How to get that star has been done in millions of different ways. Again I'm with you. I wanted it done the same way. I'm disappointed as well. But also can't look at a roster full of young guys and say were doomed.

Frye is 2nd in the running for ROY. If we had Paul, you would be telling us how bad that was too.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Bippity10:

As for the Knicks being mired in mediocrity. All the young guys on this team I'm not understanding all the pessimism. Curry and Frye have as much potential as any duo in the league. He's putting up Bosh like numbers and Curry is still a youth. Who knows what they will be. Curry could be a pain in the ass for a long time. But it's a little early to give up on that Duo. Throw in Butler, Ariza(get a jumpshot), Robinson, Crawford, Lee and I'm not sure what else you expect from rebuilding. NOt many teams have a more capable group of young guys. It shouldn't be all negative in Knickville.

Frye is a nice player on offense, not much of a defensive player but just a complimentary piece. Curry has potential but so what if he doesn't play up to it and he never will if he doesn't improve on his work ethic, which in his 5th year in the league is still a major question mark. Not to mention he's a terrible rebounder and defender for his size. Butler is nothing more than a backup if that. Ariza has no basketball skills to speak of and only has a role based on hustle. Robinson is a 5'7 backup SG, JC is outrageously erratic and inconsistent and Lee is stuck on the bench again. None of that is based on hate just an honest assessment.

do tell, how is a 6'11" 22 yr-old rookie who is scoring 15ppg off the bench in his first MONTH a complementary piece? for someone who laments Isiah's lack of patience, you sure don't seem to have much of it yourself.

Is SAR a franchise player or a complimentary piece? And Frye isn't as good as SAR was at that age.

that was a weak draft after the top two picks.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2004.asp

top to bottom that was one of the best drafts since the lock-out.

Posted by Bippity10:

How are SAR and Frye's game anything alike? I guess I'm missing the comparison.

You can draft for 15 years and just come away with complimentary players. There are no guarntees anywhere. Chicago rebuilt for what 6 years? And they still aren't an elite team. And who is the star they are building around? They have a team of "complimentary players". Atlanta, the Clips. There are no guarantees to going into the lottery. All you are doing is what we are doing, going after young players and crossing your fingers.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:23 PM]

chicago is not an example of teams drafting to no avail

If dumb ass Krause doesn't trade away Brand and Artest they have 2 of the top 10 players in the league right now. No telling where that team might've been.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Bippity10:

As for the Knicks being mired in mediocrity. All the young guys on this team I'm not understanding all the pessimism. Curry and Frye have as much potential as any duo in the league. He's putting up Bosh like numbers and Curry is still a youth. Who knows what they will be. Curry could be a pain in the ass for a long time. But it's a little early to give up on that Duo. Throw in Butler, Ariza(get a jumpshot), Robinson, Crawford, Lee and I'm not sure what else you expect from rebuilding. NOt many teams have a more capable group of young guys. It shouldn't be all negative in Knickville.

Frye is a nice player on offense, not much of a defensive player but just a complimentary piece. Curry has potential but so what if he doesn't play up to it and he never will if he doesn't improve on his work ethic, which in his 5th year in the league is still a major question mark. Not to mention he's a terrible rebounder and defender for his size. Butler is nothing more than a backup if that. Ariza has no basketball skills to speak of and only has a role based on hustle. Robinson is a 5'7 backup SG, JC is outrageously erratic and inconsistent and Lee is stuck on the bench again. None of that is based on hate just an honest assessment.

do tell, how is a 6'11" 22 yr-old rookie who is scoring 15ppg off the bench in his first MONTH a complementary piece? for someone who laments Isiah's lack of patience, you sure don't seem to have much of it yourself.

Is SAR a franchise player or a complimentary piece? And Frye isn't as good as SAR was at that age.

Well, for one thing, SAR is 6'9" and nowhere near the shotblocker Frye is. Frye is 6'11" and challenges more shots in a game than SAR does in a season. Frye clearly needs to work on his rebounding and interior game, but what's impressive about him is his work ethic. He will continue to get better.

Also, looking at SAR's rookie season, he scored more than Frye, but took more shots in more minutes shooting at a lower percentage. Frye shoots 49.8%, even after his 4-19 game in PHO. SAR shot 45%. Frye shoots 86% from the line, SAR shot 74% from the line. Frye is also a better rebounder than SAR per minute thus far, he's at 10.5 rebs per 48, while SAR was at 9.4 rebs per 48 his rookie season. Obviously, neither is great on the boards, but Frye is a full board better so far and I think he'll imprvoe. SAR also played on a team that won 13 games.

Frye is a much better player than SAR just going by stats. He's more efficient and a better shooter. He rebs and blocks more than SAR did his rookie year, and while we're at it: both guys averaged 25.9 pper48min. So, your argument makes no sense, especially when you consider that SAR was starting and playing 35 minutes per game and Frye has had to create a role for himself off the bench thus far.

Posted by Bippity10:

My point was the style of game for SAR and Frye is not even close.

that too. I absolutely agree. But I wanted to dispel the notion that SAR is remotely in Frye's league. we'll revisit the whole SAR/Frye stats thing at the end of the year and it's going to look really silly by then.