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Who's our best PG
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Bonn1997
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Who's our best PG
Stephon Marbury
Jamal Crawford
Nate Robinson
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gunsnewing
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10/23/2005  10:14 PM
nyk4ever wasn't clear about what you were saying. i was also lost and only figured it out after nyk4 asked the question. nyk4 was just asking you if that is what you meant.



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-23-2005 10:17 PM]
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gunsnewing
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10/23/2005  10:16 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:

It's a question because people want Jamal to be our PG


it looks like just 1 person wants Crawford to be the PG lol
It's up to 2 people now. Did McK1 vote twice?


I'm ready to change my vote to Crawford because I just realized why Larry said he wants to maximize Marbury by playing him at SG with Crawford handling the ball as he is doing right now
McK1
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10/23/2005  10:19 PM
if you add 3 to Davis thats 19.3. if you add 3 to Steph thats 18.9.

the next closest in going to the line is Bibby with about 5 attempts per. Using the same scale I used for Steph, that would be 2 fg attempts more putting Bibby at 17.8. Mike was putting up shots both last season and the one prior. Since its not a career trend, It can be definitely attributed to no Webber. Steph has put up a high % of his teams shots whenever and wherever he has played.
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McK1
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10/23/2005  10:22 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:

It's a question because people want Jamal to be our PG


it looks like just 1 person wants Crawford to be the PG lol


It's up to 2 people now. Did McK1 vote twice?

LOL! neither of the 2 votes came from me.

I had a write in vote of Larry Brown
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
gunsnewing
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10/23/2005  10:25 PM
Posted by McK1:

if you add 3 to Davis thats 19.3. if you add 3 to Steph thats 18.9.

the next closest in going to the line is Bibby with about 5 attempts per. Using the same scale I used for Steph, that would be 2 fg attempts more putting Bibby at 17.8. Mike was putting up shots both last season and the one prior. Since its not a career trend, It can be definitely attributed to no Webber. Steph has put up a high % of his teams shots whenever and wherever he has played.


how many shots did he put up in Phoenix playing with Amare & Marion? He put up a lot of shots on the Knicks last year because he had to and was suppose to as the team's best player. Problem is it didn't work because defenses often shut him down or forced him to dribble out the clock and pass it to Crawford with no time left. Now with Marbury playing off the ball and getting set up for shots the chances of us scoring are a lot greater than if Crawford was the one receiving the pass

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-23-2005 10:26 PM]
McK1
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10/23/2005  10:34 PM
in 02-03 Steph put up 1530 field goal attempts. Amare put up 830 official attempts.

Yeah it was amare's rookie year but for somebody Steph was proclaiming would be better than Kevin Garnett wouldn't it make sense to get him the f'ng ball.

They both played 81 games yet Steph took twice as many shot attempts. The amazing thing about Amare is on about 12-13 shots per game (counting free throw attempts) he still managed to avg 13.5 points and he shot less than 70% from the line his rookie yr!

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 10:38 PM]
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gunsnewing
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10/23/2005  10:52 PM
Posted by McK1:

in 02-03 Steph put up 1530 field goal attempts. Amare put up 830 official attempts.

Yeah it was amare's rookie year but for somebody Steph was proclaiming would be better than Kevin Garnett wouldn't it make sense to get him the f'ng ball.

They both played 81 games yet Steph took twice as many shot attempts. The amazing thing about Amare is on about 12-13 shots per game (counting free throw attempts) he still managed to avg 13.5 points and he shot less than 70% from the line his rookie yr!

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 10:38 PM]


I can definitely see that because I remember me and a bunch of other guys here last year complaing that Marbury would get the ball inside to Sweetney for an easy basket in the 4th quarter. Instead he would dribble the ball out on the perimeter as everyone still watching him make a move with little time left on the clock and when the defense collapsed he would hand it to Crawford on the perimeter for a desperation heave
Bonn1997
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10/23/2005  10:59 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by McK1:

in 02-03 Steph put up 1530 field goal attempts. Amare put up 830 official attempts.

Yeah it was amare's rookie year but for somebody Steph was proclaiming would be better than Kevin Garnett wouldn't it make sense to get him the f'ng ball.

They both played 81 games yet Steph took twice as many shot attempts. The amazing thing about Amare is on about 12-13 shots per game (counting free throw attempts) he still managed to avg 13.5 points and he shot less than 70% from the line his rookie yr!

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 10:38 PM]


I can definitely see that because I remember me and a bunch of other guys here last year complaing that Marbury would get the ball inside to Sweetney for an easy basket in the 4th quarter. Instead he would dribble the ball out on the perimeter as everyone still watching him make a move with little time left on the clock and when the defense collapsed he would hand it to Crawford on the perimeter for a desperation heave
Amare didn't have any low post moves his rookie year. (He still has only a couple now.) He's made huge strides in his offensive game each year. It's just the natural progression of his game.
As for Sweetney, now that Hinrich is feeding him his percentage is in the 30s in the preseason. I obviously don't expect it to remain that much of a disaster but I wouldn't be surprised if his FG% was a bit lower with Hinrich than with Marbury because Hinrich can't penetrate and create easy shots like Marbury can.
Bonn1997
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10/23/2005  11:01 PM
I had no idea this thread was gonna generate 130 replies so far. It must have been a great thread! On second thought, Simrud's (in)famous "manup" thread had several hundred replies!
McK1
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10/23/2005  11:21 PM
Amare was and remains an athletic phenom. Throwing the ball up to him is like throwing it up to Shaq. He put up 20 a game with Barbosa as the full time point following the Steph trade and after not playing for the first half of the season. Why is that?

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Bonn1997
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10/23/2005  11:37 PM
He put up 20 a game with Barbosa as the full time point following the Steph trade and after not playing for the first half of the season. Why is that?
He seems to have improved on his own by about 7PPG per year regardless of who his PG was. If you look at it by month (including the months he played in his 2nd year with Marbury), it's just a steady increase monthly whether Marbury, Barbosa, or Nash was the PG. You seem to be discounting any possibility that he improved over time on his own (which most kids his age do).
Amare was and remains an athletic phenom. Throwing the ball up to him is like throwing it up to Shaq.
Their offensive games have almost nothing in common

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 10-23-2005 11:50 PM]
Bonn1997
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10/23/2005  11:41 PM
Posted by McK1:

And 1 more thing ot considered when you guys did your fg attempts to assists is the amount of free throws taken.

Steph shot 549 for a 6.7 avg. lets say 2 shots per foul leaving the .7 for and ones. add 3 more shot attempts per putting him at 18.9 fga's per game.

You can add 3 more fgas for Marbury Arenas and Davis; Bibby 2; Everyone else - 1.

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 9:41 PM]
Marbury is tremendous at absorbing contact and finishing. I bet a much higher percentage of his free throws than the other players (*maybe* with the exception of Davis) were on 3 point plays. Your method counts a 3 point play as 1.5 FG attempts, which is a disadvantage for anyone who has a lot of three point plays (i.e., Steph) in any analysis that views unfavorably a high # of FGAs.
newyorknewyork
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10/23/2005  11:52 PM
gunsnewing, its as simple as this. Marbury is one of the best penitrators in the league. But he doesn't us that skill the way he should. He needs to penitrate, collapse the defense then kick the ball out. Which would create ball movement as his teammates swing the ball to the open man. But when he drives he usually looks to score instead of creating ball movement. Larry Brown could easily fix that.

He is also a very good pick and roll PG. Which could be really effective if there was a system involved which created ball movement. Because the pick and roll definalty gets teams off balance. So if we had a PF who can handle and pass the ball. Then there would be way better ball movement. Then a PF who will just float out 20 feet from the basket and nail jumpers all day. Because if the PF could use that to draw double then get the ball to the open man. Which might be the PG, Or get the ball out so we could swing the ball to the open man. For more high % shots. We ran the pick and roll so much last season they should have made a system out of it which got more players envolved. And had them play as a unit.

Last season there was no plan. So there was no structure to what they were doing. With Larry Brown I already see flashes of Crawford comming of curls and more motion. And way better defensive effort and *rotations*, focus on rebounding. I see people cutting to the basket a little more with Curry. Curry will be the go to guy in the post as well. No longer is Marbury the best scoring option we have. Just wait untill Brown really gets into it and guys like Curry & Davis & Q get in shape, healthy and comfortable.
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McK1
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10/23/2005  11:57 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

And 1 more thing ot considered when you guys did your fg attempts to assists is the amount of free throws taken.

Steph shot 549 for a 6.7 avg. lets say 2 shots per foul leaving the .7 for and ones. add 3 more shot attempts per putting him at 18.9 fga's per game.

You can add 3 more fgas for Marbury Arenas and Davis; Bibby 2; Everyone else - 1.

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 9:41 PM]
Marbury is tremendous at absorbing contact and finishing. I bet a much higher percentage of his free throws than the other players (*maybe* with the exception of Davis) were on 3 point plays. Your method counts a 3 point play as 1.5 FG attempts, which is a disadvantage for anyone who has a lot of three point plays (i.e., Steph) in any analysis that views unfavorably a high # of FGAs.


I looked it up and according to 82games.com Steph put up 1534 shots which includes the number of shooting fouls drawn which is an average of 18.7 shots per game. Approximating, I had him at 18.9.

http://www.82games.com/04NYK1A.HTM

Bibby actual was 17.6; I had him at 17.8.

http://www.82games.com/04SAC1A.HTM

+/- .2 isn't a bad approximation.
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newyorknewyork
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10/23/2005  11:59 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Then there would be way better ball movement. Then a PF who will just float out 20 feet from the basket and nail jumpers all day

I don't want to come off as blaming KT though because nobody cut to the basket reguardless so he could make the extra pass.


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Bonn1997
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10/23/2005  11:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
He put up 20 a game with Barbosa as the full time point following the Steph trade and after not playing for the first half of the season. Why is that?
He seems to have improved on his own by about 7PPG per year regardless of who his PG was. If you look at it by month (including the months he played in his 2nd year with Marbury), it's just a steady increase monthly whether Marbury, Barbosa, or Nash was the PG. You seem to be discounting any possibility that he improved over time on his own (which most kids his age do).
Marion's probably a better player to look at than Amare because he doesn't have the same confound of huge improvement per month. His #s were comparable with both Marbury and Nash and slightly better with either than with Barbosa. His highest scoring month of the last two seasons (when he played with Marbury, Barbosa, and Nash) was December 2 seasons ago when Marbury was his full-time PG.
Bonn1997
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10/24/2005  12:00 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

And 1 more thing ot considered when you guys did your fg attempts to assists is the amount of free throws taken.

Steph shot 549 for a 6.7 avg. lets say 2 shots per foul leaving the .7 for and ones. add 3 more shot attempts per putting him at 18.9 fga's per game.

You can add 3 more fgas for Marbury Arenas and Davis; Bibby 2; Everyone else - 1.

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-23-2005 9:41 PM]
Marbury is tremendous at absorbing contact and finishing. I bet a much higher percentage of his free throws than the other players (*maybe* with the exception of Davis) were on 3 point plays. Your method counts a 3 point play as 1.5 FG attempts, which is a disadvantage for anyone who has a lot of three point plays (i.e., Steph) in any analysis that views unfavorably a high # of FGAs.


I looked it up and according to 82games.com Steph put up 1534 shots which includes the number of shooting fouls drawn which is an average of 18.7 shots per game. Approximating, I had him at 18.9.

http://www.82games.com/04NYK1A.HTM

Bibby actual was 17.6; I had him at 17.8.

http://www.82games.com/04SAC1A.HTM

+/- .2 isn't a bad approximation.
So as I suspected Marbury has a much better FGA/Assist ratio than Bibby
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10/24/2005  12:16 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

[quote]Posted by McK1:
Instead he would dribble the ball out on the perimeter as everyone still watching him make a move with little time left on the clock and when the defense collapsed he would hand it to Crawford on the perimeter for a desperation heave
Steph made this error ONE time ALL of last year and somehow you have managed to mention it 3 or more times in the same thread. I have watched 90% of the games last year, some of them twice and three times, you have to stop saying this as if this is a pattern.

As far as clutchness goes, he was not clutch last year. But overall in his career he has been, including his first half season as a knick. He made clutch free throws and took tough shots.

Saying this more than once doesn't mean it happened more than once. You are being unfair.
McK1
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10/24/2005  12:35 AM
[/quote]
So as I suspected Marbury has a much better FGA/Assist ratio than Bibby

[/quote]

Not a fair comparison. The Kings whole offense is predicated on ball movement motion by the guards and passing out of the high post by their big men. Bibby goes backdoor just as much as Steph is setting up for his favorite and only play - the pick and roll.

Sac as a team avg'd 24.5 assists. NY avg'd 20. 7 out of 25 assists by Bibby indicates ball movement (Miller averaged 4. b/n Corliss and Thomas they got back the 5.5 they loss with the Webber trade). 8 out of 20 from Steph, nearly half, and 12 out of 20 b/n him and Crawford indicates little to no ball movement. both teams shot 45% from the floor. Kingsshot slightly better from 3 - 37 to 35%.

Marbury dominates the ball. His assists don't come in the flow of an offense.

I checked out the Suns Phoenix avg'd 23.6. Nash got 11.5 of them. His % of assists is higher than Steph's but unlike him his fg attempts are pretty low - 900 including shots he got fouled on for 12 attempts a game. He didn't dominate the ball. However like Kidd he did lead a lot of fastbreaks.
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gunsnewing
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10/24/2005  12:42 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by gunsnewing:

[quote]Posted by McK1:
Instead he would dribble the ball out on the perimeter as everyone still watching him make a move with little time left on the clock and when the defense collapsed he would hand it to Crawford on the perimeter for a desperation heave
Steph made this error ONE time ALL of last year and somehow you have managed to mention it 3 or more times in the same thread. I have watched 90% of the games last year, some of them twice and three times, you have to stop saying this as if this is a pattern.

As far as clutchness goes, he was not clutch last year. But overall in his career he has been, including his first half season as a knick. He made clutch free throws and took tough shots.

Saying this more than once doesn't mean it happened more than once. You are being unfair.


it happened twice and I'm only talking about late on the 4th quarter.those were 2 losses pinned on Marbury. then there were at least 3more key losses that ended our playoff hope because he choked at the line
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