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OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact
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Knight
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9/2/2005  10:53 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Knight:

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.


Knight, you are being a little sarcastic here. You know that no one can reasonably forecast weather or other spectacular events, but you CAN plan accordingly, and it's the planning part that is killing - literally and figuratively - the American people. We vote and hire high-ranking officials and give them access to big bucks, power, and influence for the planning (and execution) part of their job. I mean really, after 9/11 a big part of the gov't focus was disaster planning. A big part of Iraq is planning and executing, and more planning for both failure and sucess, planning for the unknown and the what-ifs. That's what leaders are supposed to do, and those who don't will often times get caught with their proverbial pants down and fail. In this case, in NO, failure means death, destruction, starvation, disease, etc.


Here is my question: If a hurricane hitting NO was such a huge, obvious threat--show me the people who were yelling at the president to do something about it--where were the protests in NO before the hurricane asking for more protection? I'm sure you will find a couple people who have talked about the possibility of a hurricane hitting because it was their job to determine that risk--but there was no public outcry until **** hit the fan. Now everyone wants to blame Bush for not forecasting this. What if NO was prepared for a hurricane but not the size of Katrina? Should you prepare for the biggest hurricane imaginable? Does government always have to plan for the absolute worst case scenario?
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toodarkmark
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9/2/2005  10:55 AM
It's great to see that most of this site is politically informed and not blinded by the propaganda. But for the few that are...

GoNY: You seem to have a small grasp on reality, yet claim to have the largest. Few answers and just alot of attacks on those who question. Typical of a con. You've made the sarcastic statement a few times that the world started on 1/21/01 and thats when everything went bad. I dont know how old you are but the world was MUCHHHHH different in 1/21/01 before the neo-conservative coup de tait. And dont talk about 9-11. Im someone who works in a Career Services office and the fact is jobs went to hell within months of Bush's election. The point of a conservative power base is to destroy the middle class. And they have done everything in their power to succeed, and the fact is you dont know the numbers, you just recite something you've been fed. Take it from someone's whos job it is to track jobs in this country that 9-11 affected to job market, but not as much as the neo-conservatives attempt to cripple this country financially to drive their army recruitment.

As far as politicizing it? Thats a common reponse by a sheep. Dont ask questions! Dont think! What SHOULDNT be politicized is someone have sexual indiscretions, but when the Federal Govt cuts funding for research to save its own people, stretches its resources paper thin, all for what a majority of this country and now politicians consider a senseless war, than that sure does need to be politicized.

Knight: Hindight is not 20/20. The experts, officials and groups in charge of this told the administration, but the administration did not care. Just as experts told them there were no WMDs in IRAQ. Just as they told them that Osama Bin Ladin would attack the US months before 9-11 happened. The point is they are far too arrogant to listen, and far too into creating chaos and fear to maintain their control.
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fishmike
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9/2/2005  10:56 AM
so now there has to be a public outcry for the president to act on intellegence? I thought we didnt need to protest, that the gov was good enough to address the biggest threats to the people it protects.

The army corps of engineers... sure, why listen to them?

Wait till the people revolt, and then we will do something. Thats the leadership your suggesting?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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9/2/2005  10:56 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Knight:

"Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk."

So some people thought there was a risk, some didn't, hind-sight is 20/20--that's all this is. I don't know what could have been done to stop a hurricane--build a giant wall? A giant umbrella? Seriously, the only thing that needed to be done was get the hell out of there, that's it. You can't predict all of the events in the event of a hurricane--you can't plan for every contingency. You can't predict whether people will loot and shoot and cause mass hysteria. Now the task should be simply to get help to the people who need it...and it's not as easy as every anti-Bush person makes it out to be.
you cant plan for every contingency, but here is a case where people were trying and Bush's policy directly affected them from doing so. Thats pretty black and white to me.

Knight... why did we go to war in Iraq? I want an answer to this question since you wrote:
Not everyone feels the same way about the war as you do, I don't know why you would assume that.



There is no single answer to that question but I have no doubt that people in the Bush administration actually perceived Iraq as a legitimate danger, directly or indirectly, to the US.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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9/2/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Knight:

I guess before we go to war we should check the weather forecast for 3 years down the road to determine if any hurricanes may strike. That's the lesson we learned I guess.


Knight, you are being a little sarcastic here. You know that no one can reasonably forecast weather or other spectacular events, but you CAN plan accordingly, and it's the planning part that is killing - literally and figuratively - the American people. We vote and hire high-ranking officials and give them access to big bucks, power, and influence for the planning (and execution) part of their job. I mean really, after 9/11 a big part of the gov't focus was disaster planning. A big part of Iraq is planning and executing, and more planning for both failure and sucess, planning for the unknown and the what-ifs. That's what leaders are supposed to do, and those who don't will often times get caught with their proverbial pants down and fail. In this case, in NO, failure means death, destruction, starvation, disease, etc.


Here is my question: If a hurricane hitting NO was such a huge, obvious threat--show me the people who were yelling at the president to do something about it--where were the protests in NO before the hurricane asking for more protection? I'm sure you will find a couple people who have talked about the possibility of a hurricane hitting because it was their job to determine that risk--but there was no public outcry until **** hit the fan. Now everyone wants to blame Bush for not forecasting this. What if NO was prepared for a hurricane but not the size of Katrina? Should you prepare for the biggest hurricane imaginable? Does government always have to plan for the absolute worst case scenario?


The gov't should at least look at the top three:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html

A Can't-Do Government
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

Also, read the thread again, there were plenty of examples of people and organizations asking for $ for protection around NO.
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Silverfuel
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9/2/2005  10:58 AM
Posted by Knight:

Here is my question: If a hurricane hitting NO was such a huge, obvious threat--show me the people who were yelling at the president to do something about it
Leader of the country has to be yelled at to take steps to prevent the worst from happening? How far will you go?
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GoNyGoNyGo
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9/2/2005  10:59 AM
[quote]
Posted by martin:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html

Oh Goodness, now you are citing Paul Krugman as your source for "impartial" information? Please do not go down that path.
martin
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9/2/2005  11:00 AM
man, this thread - not the disaster itself - is just what I needed in the Knicks dark season.
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fishmike
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9/2/2005  11:01 AM
There is no single answer to that question but I have no doubt that people in the Bush administration actually perceived Iraq as a legitimate danger, directly or indirectly, to the US.
doesnt matter to me because I dont trust them or the administration. They and theirs are knee deep business interests over there. I dont need Michael Moore propaganda to tell me their interests are skewed.

I want to know as a supporter why YOU think we went to war? Is it as simple as you just trust the administration?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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9/2/2005  11:03 AM
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:

[quote]
Posted by martin:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html

Oh Goodness, now you are citing Paul Krugman as your source for "impartial" information? Please do not go down that path.

how about CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html

New Orleans mayor lashes out at feds

Nagin: 'They are spinning and people are dying'

Friday, September 2, 2005; Posted: 9:18 a.m. EDT (13:18 GMT)

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, here before the hurricane hit, says the feds are "feeding people a line of bull."



NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- As his city skidded deeper into chaos, New Orleans' embattled mayor accused federal officials of dragging their feet while people are dying in deplorable conditions.
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Knight
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9/2/2005  11:04 AM
Posted by toodarkmark:

It's great to see that most of this site is politically informed and not blinded by the propaganda. But for the few that are...

GoNY: You seem to have a small grasp on reality, yet claim to have the largest. Few answers and just alot of attacks on those who question. Typical of a con. You've made the sarcastic statement a few times that the world started on 1/21/01 and thats when everything went bad. I dont know how old you are but the world was MUCHHHHH different in 1/21/01 before the neo-conservative coup de tait. And dont talk about 9-11. Im someone who works in a Career Services office and the fact is jobs went to hell within months of Bush's election. The point of a conservative power base is to destroy the middle class. And they have done everything in their power to succeed, and the fact is you dont know the numbers, you just recite something you've been fed. Take it from someone's whos job it is to track jobs in this country that 9-11 affected to job market, but not as much as the neo-conservatives attempt to cripple this country financially to drive their army recruitment.

As far as politicizing it? Thats a common reponse by a sheep. Dont ask questions! Dont think! What SHOULDNT be politicized is someone have sexual indiscretions, but when the Federal Govt cuts funding for research to save its own people, stretches its resources paper thin, all for what a majority of this country and now politicians consider a senseless war, than that sure does need to be politicized.

Knight: Hindight is not 20/20. The experts, officials and groups in charge of this told the administration, but the administration did not care. Just as experts told them there were no WMDs in IRAQ. Just as they told them that Osama Bin Ladin would attack the US months before 9-11 happened. The point is they are far too arrogant to listen, and far too into creating chaos and fear to maintain their control.


Sexual indiscretions do matter to people because VALUES matter to people. If some people believe gay marriage is indicative of a decline of morality then they have a right to discuss it publicly. Without basic morality this nation would fall apart--business requires integrity and honesty--every legitimate social interaction presupposes shared values. Our government is supposed to be an extension of the interests of the people, no?

[Edited by - Knight on 09-02-2005 11:09 AM]
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Knight
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9/2/2005  11:05 AM
Posted by fishmike:
There is no single answer to that question but I have no doubt that people in the Bush administration actually perceived Iraq as a legitimate danger, directly or indirectly, to the US.
doesnt matter to me because I dont trust them or the administration. They and theirs are knee deep business interests over there. I dont need Michael Moore propaganda to tell me their interests are skewed.

I want to know as a supporter why YOU think we went to war? Is it as simple as you just trust the administration?

I think we went to war because, as I said, Iraq posed, directly or indirectly, a threat to the US.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
fishmike
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9/2/2005  11:10 AM
I think we went to war because, as I said, Iraq posed, directly or indirectly, a threat to the US.
Are you in politics? Why wont you answer the question? Do you think Iraq was a threat to the US? Enough of a threat that merited a full scale invasion?

Its a yes or no.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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9/2/2005  11:12 AM
i think they did. maybe it's because they turned a blind eye to terrorists, maybe when bush made the declaration that you are either for or against us, they said go eff off. Not sure why exactly, but I was worried about iraq (just like I am North Korea).

Matt Stone and Trey Parker pretty much sum up my opinions on both of them.

btw, I'm still
all kool aid all the time.
Knight
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9/2/2005  11:13 AM
Posted by toodarkmark:


Knight: Hindight is not 20/20. The experts, officials and groups in charge of this told the administration, but the administration did not care. Just as experts told them there were no WMDs in IRAQ. Just as they told them that Osama Bin Ladin would attack the US months before 9-11 happened. The point is they are far too arrogant to listen, and far too into creating chaos and fear to maintain their control.

That's exactly how I would describe your post and your pompous description of your expertise. I don't know if you know this, but so called "experts" happen to disagree even with each other.


"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Knight
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9/2/2005  11:18 AM
Posted by fishmike:
I think we went to war because, as I said, Iraq posed, directly or indirectly, a threat to the US.
Are you in politics? Why wont you answer the question? Do you think Iraq was a threat to the US? Enough of a threat that merited a full scale invasion?

Its a yes or no.


I do think a full scale invasion was the only way to get rid of the Saddam regime. I think Saddam supported terrorism and was motivated to harm US interests. It's unfortunate the world community did not put more pressure on him prior to the war--but as we now see there was a lot of shady business being done in the oil for food program.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
nyk4ever
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9/2/2005  11:18 AM
Posted by martin:

man, this thread - not the disaster itself - is just what I needed in the Knicks dark season.


I know what you mean, Martin, I am really enjoying reading this thread. I'm 22 years old so its nice for me to read about the things that you guys have all brought up because while I know some things about politics and what has happened, I dont know alot of it. I think its reasonale that everyone on here has valid points and everyone is going to believe in something different and thats fine, thats what makes this country.

I just think it's REALLY nice to be able to come to a Knicks board and have an extremely intelligent discussion when it comes to the rest of the world and not just the Knicks, this discussion would not be anywhere near it is on any other Knicks message board there is out there and maybe not any other Sports Message Board period. Just wanted to say that.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 09-02-2005 11:20 AM]
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fishmike
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9/2/2005  11:22 AM
Posted by Knight:

Sexual indiscretions do matter to people because VALUES matter to people. If some people believe gay marriage is indicative of a decline of morality then they have a right to discuss it publicly. Without basic morality this nation would fall apart--business requires integrity and honesty--every legitimate social interaction presupposes shared values. Our government is supposed to be an extension of the interests of the people, no?

[Edited by - Knight on 09-02-2005 11:09 AM]
keeping slaves and herding American Indians off lands they were indigenous to were two key values that formed this country.
There is no great hypocrisy than the gay marriage issue. They country has a 50% divorce rate and more than half the repubs that voted against gay marriage were working on a 2nd wife. Tell me again how this is a threat to "traditional" values?
What a joke. Keep fags from getting married, so your children can be safe. Long live the empire.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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9/2/2005  11:25 AM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by fishmike:
I think we went to war because, as I said, Iraq posed, directly or indirectly, a threat to the US.
Are you in politics? Why wont you answer the question? Do you think Iraq was a threat to the US? Enough of a threat that merited a full scale invasion?

Its a yes or no.


I do think a full scale invasion was the only way to get rid of the Saddam regime. I think Saddam supported terrorism and was motivated to harm US interests. It's unfortunate the world community did not put more pressure on him prior to the war--but as we now see there was a lot of shady business being done in the oil for food program.
again... your spinning and waffling
Here it is again... I bolded the key point because it appears to be ambigious to you

Do you think Iraq was a threat to the US? Enough of a threat that merited a full scale invasion?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyvector16
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9/2/2005  11:31 AM
Enough to merit a full scale invasion DESPITE THE FACT that we had weapons inspectors in there with free reign to inspect anywhere they saw fit. THey were there looking for the very reason we went to war.. the infamous 3 letters... WMD... an acronym meant to instill fear that never really existed in the American psyche before this administration...

OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact

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