fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.

I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all

I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.

we were a top 5 offense in KAT/Mikal's first year. 2 new starters. Josh in a totally new role. Top 5 offense. Vets having career years...

1) You are factually wrong. They were not a top 5 offense. They looked like one during the first portion of the season but by any other metric, they were middle of the pack.

2) These comments are about offensive system not effectiveness. The personnel they have looks ideally situated to run a 4-1 or 5-0 offense. They instead have their own midrange and iso heavy offense, but I could see this personnel being among the highest net rating teams of all time. So, yeah, even if I agreed to Top 5, I think they have the personnel for an All Time list. My KoolAid is stronger than yours.

Knicks were 5th in the NBA in Points per 100 possessions. It's literally the golden standard for how good your offense is
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025.html

Celtics, OKC, Denver and Cavs were better.

Not sure what facts you are looking at

So 1) yes it's a fact and 2) how are you measuring an offensive system is you are NOT looking at how effective it is?

You are right about the ORtg. I cling very tightly to eFG and TS but I have to concede the point on PP100. I use the percentages to under the assumption that the actual ORtg will regress to the percentage over time. But this isnt what occurred this year - so I am incorrect.

Still, my comment is that I think this team could be more efficient with a 4-1 or 5-out motion offense. I think they can do more with a motion offense instead of the iso heavy model they have.

DLeethal wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.

I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all

I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.

we were a top 5 offense in KAT/Mikal's first year. 2 new starters. Josh in a totally new role. Top 5 offense. Vets having career years...

1) You are factually wrong. They were not a top 5 offense. They looked like one during the first portion of the season but by any other metric, they were middle of the pack.

2) These comments are about offensive system not effectiveness. The personnel they have looks ideally situated to run a 4-1 or 5-0 offense. They instead have their own midrange and iso heavy offense, but I could see this personnel being among the highest net rating teams of all time. So, yeah, even if I agreed to Top 5, I think they have the personnel for an All Time list. My KoolAid is stronger than yours.

Knicks were 5th in the NBA in Points per 100 possessions. It's literally the golden standard for how good your offense is
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025.html

Celtics, OKC, Denver and Cavs were better.

Not sure what facts you are looking at

So 1) yes it's a fact and 2) how are you measuring an offensive system is you are NOT looking at how effective it is?

What was our ORTG last 2-3 months of the season? What is our ORTG in the playoffs?

Are those the two times when the cherries are ripe?

DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.

112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.

Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th

Pacers had best offensive rating in playoffs last year.
Got swept by the Celts.
We just won first 2.

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.

112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.

Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th

yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?

"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?

That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.

fishmike wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.

112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.

Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th

yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?

"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?

The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't this Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.

That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.

but you cant quantify that, and when you try you both fall utterly flat. You say he's not getting the most but the results say it's a top offense. Only Det and Celtics have 3 straight trips to the semis. We have players getting better and having career years (development). Yet something doesnt look right to you.

Thibs is the driver? He's on the court? Watch the games man... the Knicks move the ball and make you defend them for a few passes BEFORE finishing with top shelf ISO play, but that's getting bailed out?

It is what's called an unsubstantiated opinion. At best cherry picked stats with small sample sizes ignoring results.

You aware of the 2 new starters as well? Some chemistry takes time... this is the push to keep a core of guys together. But you were talking about Ferrari's... go on....

ramtour420 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.

112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.

Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th

yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?

"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?

The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.

That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.

We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.

ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.

112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.

Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th

yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?

"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?

The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.

That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.

We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.

ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.

If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there

Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.

Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.

Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.

I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.

In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.

I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.