DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Here are my scattered thoughts on the matter:

- It's been widely reported that there were factions within Knicks brass who didn't want to give Thibs an extension (Leon's #2 WWW etc.)

In an organization that does not leak, I don't doubt there are disagreements on big decision. This is NORMAL for pretty much every organization under the sun. Plus, I'm sure Johnny Bryant didn't care that Thibs got extended and he wasn't able to take over. Like that.

- Thibs crop of assistants has been less and less impressive every year

You and I have exactly zero clue on how any of the assistants perform. Zero. If this is otherwise, substantiate that for me. They also hired the best big man coach in the business. They also hired the best med team in the business. Leon does not fool around across the board.

- Leon emptied his chips last offseason in a bid to transform the way the Knicks play, which he obv thought was deficient for a legitimate championship run

At the time of the Mikal trade, the roster would have looked like this:

Jalen, Mikal, OG, Randle, iHart
Payne, McBride, DDV, Hart, Mitch

iHart decision ****ed that up, not Leon going for Mikal; the above was the championship team that was more primed than this version. iHart stays and Mitch is healthy sooner, then YES, they do have something very different. Again, iHart ****ed that up.

We could also say that the Knicks managed their cap and Brunson's extension magnificently while also staying under the second apron. The Knicks NEEDED to maximize the Bojan contract BECAUSE of the second apron WHILE keeping Brunson at a much lower cost. What was Brunson's ask to the lower contract? I think it is reasonable to say it was Mikal. That was the tradeoff. You don't trade for Mikal, perhaps Brunson does not budge.

- After looking the part of an elite offensive team for maybe half the year, they slowly turned into the same kind of team Thibs has coached his entire career, which was largely focused around one player's ball dominance. The calls for Thibs' head due to this have become much louder by voices who have had Thibs' back for years, in terms of media figures etc... The seat got hotter and hotter through the DET series. Essentially you can no longer blame the roster for lack of coherent offensive attack. It all falls on coaching now because the offensive talent is elite but the production is not.

Let me know what teams outside of exactly 2 extraordinary teams in the NBA don't have ups and downs in the regular season. Also, you need to get me your gauge on how you KNOW who is on the hot seat and not so much, cause I don't agree with you and don't think you can really substantiate that.

- There is no ability to make major trades anymore, so is Leon going to accept this team performing less than a sum of its parts on offense for another year?

False. The Knicks managed their cap extraordinarily well. They will be about $9M under the second apron and will be able to combine contracts, unlike Boston and Cleveland and others. They have plenty of space to make trades, it's just about the willingness to do so. You made up that hurdle out of nowhere.

- This current Knick window is relatively short before roster retooling is necessary. If Leon is not 100% sold on Thibs for the next 3 years, then I think he makes his move this year. It doesn't really make sense to wait out another year unless he's sold on him for the entire run in my opinion.

The Knicks have about a 3-4 year window at least. Every single player of consequence is under 30. What other teams are in a better or different position outside of OKC?

In Thibs favor:
- The bench is CLEARLY lacking in a major way. Does Leon give him a pass as he tries to round out the roster?
- He has the backing of Brunson, which might be the most important thing of all.
- Knicks while looking very shaky during the DET series, did eventually expel of them in 6 games although by pure luck to some degree
- Knick just had the best playoff win in 25 years last night and are up 1-0 on the champs.

In many ways, majority of coaches is coaching for their lives during a given playoff run. If you get upset by a worse team or underperform, many coaches will be instacanned. I don't think anyone would argue if we ended up losing to DET that Thibs would be gone. So it really does come down to series by series to some degree.

In terms of Thibs assistants, he pretty much has lost a high profile assistant every year without adding one back. He lost Woodson, then he lost JB. He added Mo Cheeks, who hasn't really been relevant as a coach in 15 years. Many top coaches are adding high profile assistants every year, as coaches get fired and move to becoming assistants. Thibs doesn't really have anyone on his staff anymore that is either a recent head coach or someone with the juice to be a future head coach. I do give them BIG credit for hiring the Mavs trainer, no doubt.

As fans we can't substantiate anything besides sentiment and reporting. But sentiment definitely shifted late this season amongst fans, media, talking heads who have been pro-Thibs for awhile and watched the offense unravel. I also wouldn't really consider what we saw from the Knicks offense "ups and downs" as much as a slow and steady regression.

Knicks window is based on the contract length of their core which is another 3 years. That's the window for this team. So if you are sold on Thibs for the next 3 years great. IF you are not, you might as well allow a new coach that window to try and take this team to the next level.

Knicks assets are severely depleted now, that is our inability to make major trades. We don't have the assets that we used to, only a few crappy picks left and not too many young players of value on rookie contracts. We can still make some smaller trades no doubt, but the core of this team is largely a finished product.

You really haven't substantiated any of this, so it's just your feel and opinion, I just dont agree with your take.

Here is their cap situation:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/knickzfeed/status/1911846215651844144

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Here are my scattered thoughts on the matter:

- It's been widely reported that there were factions within Knicks brass who didn't want to give Thibs an extension (Leon's #2 WWW etc.)

In an organization that does not leak, I don't doubt there are disagreements on big decision. This is NORMAL for pretty much every organization under the sun. Plus, I'm sure Johnny Bryant didn't care that Thibs got extended and he wasn't able to take over. Like that.

- Thibs crop of assistants has been less and less impressive every year

You and I have exactly zero clue on how any of the assistants perform. Zero. If this is otherwise, substantiate that for me. They also hired the best big man coach in the business. They also hired the best med team in the business. Leon does not fool around across the board.

- Leon emptied his chips last offseason in a bid to transform the way the Knicks play, which he obv thought was deficient for a legitimate championship run

At the time of the Mikal trade, the roster would have looked like this:

Jalen, Mikal, OG, Randle, iHart
Payne, McBride, DDV, Hart, Mitch

iHart decision ****ed that up, not Leon going for Mikal; the above was the championship team that was more primed than this version. iHart stays and Mitch is healthy sooner, then YES, they do have something very different. Again, iHart ****ed that up.

We could also say that the Knicks managed their cap and Brunson's extension magnificently while also staying under the second apron. The Knicks NEEDED to maximize the Bojan contract BECAUSE of the second apron WHILE keeping Brunson at a much lower cost. What was Brunson's ask to the lower contract? I think it is reasonable to say it was Mikal. That was the tradeoff. You don't trade for Mikal, perhaps Brunson does not budge.

- After looking the part of an elite offensive team for maybe half the year, they slowly turned into the same kind of team Thibs has coached his entire career, which was largely focused around one player's ball dominance. The calls for Thibs' head due to this have become much louder by voices who have had Thibs' back for years, in terms of media figures etc... The seat got hotter and hotter through the DET series. Essentially you can no longer blame the roster for lack of coherent offensive attack. It all falls on coaching now because the offensive talent is elite but the production is not.

Let me know what teams outside of exactly 2 extraordinary teams in the NBA don't have ups and downs in the regular season. Also, you need to get me your gauge on how you KNOW who is on the hot seat and not so much, cause I don't agree with you and don't think you can really substantiate that.

- There is no ability to make major trades anymore, so is Leon going to accept this team performing less than a sum of its parts on offense for another year?

False. The Knicks managed their cap extraordinarily well. They will be about $9M under the second apron and will be able to combine contracts, unlike Boston and Cleveland and others. They have plenty of space to make trades, it's just about the willingness to do so. You made up that hurdle out of nowhere.

- This current Knick window is relatively short before roster retooling is necessary. If Leon is not 100% sold on Thibs for the next 3 years, then I think he makes his move this year. It doesn't really make sense to wait out another year unless he's sold on him for the entire run in my opinion.

The Knicks have about a 3-4 year window at least. Every single player of consequence is under 30. What other teams are in a better or different position outside of OKC?

In Thibs favor:
- The bench is CLEARLY lacking in a major way. Does Leon give him a pass as he tries to round out the roster?
- He has the backing of Brunson, which might be the most important thing of all.
- Knicks while looking very shaky during the DET series, did eventually expel of them in 6 games although by pure luck to some degree
- Knick just had the best playoff win in 25 years last night and are up 1-0 on the champs.

In many ways, majority of coaches is coaching for their lives during a given playoff run. If you get upset by a worse team or underperform, many coaches will be instacanned. I don't think anyone would argue if we ended up losing to DET that Thibs would be gone. So it really does come down to series by series to some degree.

In terms of Thibs assistants, he pretty much has lost a high profile assistant every year without adding one back. He lost Woodson, then he lost JB. He added Mo Cheeks, who hasn't really been relevant as a coach in 15 years. Many top coaches are adding high profile assistants every year, as coaches get fired and move to becoming assistants. Thibs doesn't really have anyone on his staff anymore that is either a recent head coach or someone with the juice to be a future head coach. I do give them BIG credit for hiring the Mavs trainer, no doubt.

As fans we can't substantiate anything besides sentiment and reporting. But sentiment definitely shifted late this season amongst fans, media, talking heads who have been pro-Thibs for awhile and watched the offense unravel. I also wouldn't really consider what we saw from the Knicks offense "ups and downs" as much as a slow and steady regression.

Knicks window is based on the contract length of their core which is another 3 years. That's the window for this team. So if you are sold on Thibs for the next 3 years great. IF you are not, you might as well allow a new coach that window to try and take this team to the next level.

Knicks assets are severely depleted now, that is our inability to make major trades. We don't have the assets that we used to, only a few crappy picks left and not too many young players of value on rookie contracts. We can still make some smaller trades no doubt, but the core of this team is largely a finished product.

You really haven't substantiated any of this, so it's just your feel and opinion, I just dont agree with your take.

Here is their cap situation:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/knickzfeed/status/1911846215651844144

At the end of the day everything we say here is feel and opinion. Some based on more facts than others in a world where we cannot actually get inside the workings of the team.

I don't think our asset depletion and cap situation leaving us in a tough spot to make meaningful moves is an opinion though, I think that is closer to fact. We have a crafty FO and I think they will figure out a way to do stuff around the margins next year. Being 9M under the second apron with the worst bench in the league isn't exactly a rosy picture of our ability to do that though.

VDesai wrote:Total aside, but I was listening to Roommates pod the other and Jalen told a story that I didn't know - Mo Cheeks cut Rick Brunson back when he was coaching the Sixers. That's when Rick decided to retire. Made Jalen cry. They still welcomed Mo in!

DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.

DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.

I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all

ramtour420 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.

I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all

I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:At the end of the day everything we say here is feel and opinion. Some based on more facts than others in a world where we cannot actually get inside the workings of the team.

I don't think our asset depletion and cap situation leaving us in a tough spot to make meaningful moves is an opinion though, I think that is closer to fact. We have a crafty FO and I think they will figure out a way to do stuff around the margins next year. Being 9M under the second apron with the worst bench in the league isn't exactly a rosy picture of our ability to do that though.

You just used your opinion to state that matured vets who are older can't be as good as young coaches with verve with zero understanding of what any of the assistants bring to the table. Zero. The opinion gotta be based on something tangible.

That's not opinion that's making up something out of whole cloth.

It's not making stuff up out of thin air. Thibs has always had an associate head coach. He does not have one anymore because he didn't replace Johnnie Bryant. Associate head coach is always the "lead assistant" or number 2 guy and they are higher profile coaches with pedigrees. Steve Kerr for example always has an associate head coach, with that job title, on his bench that was a recent head coach. Rick Brunson is the only guy on the sidelines in Thibs' ear ever anymore. The rest of the coaches are second row coaches, and second row is for the lower level guys for obvious reasons.

It's not that hard to gauge quality by reputation. Plenty of assistants are rumored for head coaching gigs, that's one way you can gauge their value. We saw every year Johnnie Bryant was a threat to leave for some head coaching gig or even a college gig. You know he was a high quality assistant because other teams wanted to poach him. But regardless, we all follow the team in detail, and when there is a special assistant or someone with juice we know about it. Just like we know of Leon's assistants and their roles and the ones who might have special talents like Brock Aller.

Rick Brunson is the associate head coach. Don't know if he qualifies as young enough.

https://sny.tv/articles/nba-poking-around-knicks-promotion-assistant-coach-rick-brunson

‘‘In response to the rumored NBA investigation into Rick Brunson’s promotion, Brunson took (former associate head coach) Johnnie Bryant’s place and assumed the same salary as Bryant. It’s offensive that anyone would claim Rick didn’t deserve the promotion,” MSG Sports said in a statement. “Rick has done a tremendous job and will continue to do so. We see this as more harassment of the Knicks due to our opposition to certain NBA matters.”

I have no idea where you keep talking about young when I never mentioned it. I am talking about status, not age. My point about Cheeks was that he hasn't been relevant as a head coaching candidate in 15 years.

But Brunson's dad becoming the new lead assistant kind of proves my point of not having a high level staff. Thibs can do better and that shouldn't be a controversial take. When he first got here his bench was loaded.