SupremeCommander wrote:

NUPE wrote:There are those who simply do not like Melo and can not discuss him logically. So why even engage in discussion about Melo with such people?!?!?! Don't waste your time.

love this quote from Kobe Bryant, and he's talking about these posters you reference (which includes grown men who wish they could stick it up Gallo's bum):

"Everybody said, 'Well, they're better without Carmelo,' and all this nonsense," Bryant said. "You guys really put the hammer on him, and as a result, he kind of got a little gun shy and a little self-conscious about things. I asked him, 'What's going on? What the hell are you doing?' I said, 'Do what you do best.'"

Melo had been an absolute beast and a privilege to watch. Anyone taking the other side of that statement doesn't understand the game as well as they let on and really isn'ta big fan of the Knicks. But I guess the alternative is that Kobe Bryant doesn't know **** about basketball

Totally agree with both of these posts!

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:What's the argument now against Melo? Seriously, it's hard to keep up with all the attempts to discredit every single positive stat or improvement.

Adrenaline 3s apparently

LMAOOOOOOOO can't be serious. This is beginning to become borderline pathetic.

It started as a "heatck" post and tkf and dk7th turned it into a % troll talk.Tkf, wheres your buddy dk7th?? Maybe you should find another butt buddy.

this is simple.. dk doesn't believe in heat check 3's.... moreso if you are not good shooting threes for your career... so of course % has to come into play, otherwise how do you show if someone is a good shooter from three? cooch wants to win an argument because he says so..... that just won't fly, and when faced with reason, he resorts to this type of behavior that is not conducive to having a reasonable conversation....

edit: dk also mentioned that although no one should be taking heat check 3's, if you do so, it is somewhat more understandable if you are a good three point shooter for your career.. ie: Nash..

Okay, that is understandable, however, "Heat Check 3s" are apart of the game. And during this time that a player is taking these type of shots, they're experiencing an adrenaline rush which can immediately improve athletic performance.

While I agree that moreso high percentage 3 point shooters should take these shots more than a below average shooter, during this time stats are thrown out the window. This is what you call being on "fire" ... it's not just luck it's contributed to the hormones in your body as well. For example, the game Melo had in the olympics or a couple during the season, I have no problem at all with him taking those shots during that time. It doesn't change the complexion of the game if taken at the right time. So maybe that should be the argument.

Also, I want to state as well, the Cooch is right! Although not a huge significance, but according to mathematics and probability laws ... the more you do something the higher your percentage will raise. If you look at Reggie Millers best shooting percentage seasons it's when he's taking more shots. Actually the more you shoot the more comfortable you will be come, and the chance of making that shot increases. Melo best shooting percentage was recorded during his highest 3pt shooting attempts season.

funny you say that... reggie miller shot over 6000 threes, actually 6486,so I took his first 7 seasons worth of threes as a test, 2152 attempts, miller shot 39%.... his next eleven seasons he shot over 4000 threes, guess what his career percentage was? 39% why didn't it go up?

Cooch is trying to say miller has a better % because he has taken more threes than carmelo.. I say hogwash.. miller has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter.. plain and simple....

If you look at Reggie Millers best shooting percentage seasons it's when he's taking more shots.

there is nothing to support that consistently... for example the highest % miller has shot was .429, he had 382 attempts that year in 97-98, he had more attempts in 7 different seasons and didn't surpass that .429.. again this doesn't support what you said or cooch for that matter... in this case cooch is just WRONG, and very defiant in defending a losing position.... I would reconsider backing any of his points especially since he is speaking from emotion here.....

Actually the more you shoot the more comfortable you will be come, and the chance of making that shot increases. Melo best shooting percentage was recorded during his highest 3pt shooting attempts season

well again, there isn't evidence to support that, although I understand what you are trying to say... maybe you do become more comfortable taking that shot, but that does not always mean a better percentage.. in this case miller is better because.. he is just better....

again, you are using ONE year to try to prove your point... what about the year carmelo shot 214 three at 32% his first year and then a few years later took 164 threes and shot 35%

you are not providing enough evidence to support your position, you can't take one year , you have to average out the body of work which is why we are dealing with averages...

again it is simple.... both carmelo and miller have had a large enough sample size to examine their 3pt shooting percentage.. miller's is better because he is a better three point shoooter... simple...

Funny that I say what, exactly??? I specifically said ACCORDING to mathematics and probability laws, that have been used way before there was basketball, greater repetition = greater percentage. Not an opinion .. that's a fact. Now you stated Reggie Miller #s which is proven to be an exception to the rule, but earlier you stated that actually the more you shoot it's the opposite of a greater percentage ... guess that means you aren't completely correct either.

Now, what does these numbers prove??? Exactly what some have been trying to get you and DK to understand. Basketball is not ALL numbers/stats, unlike other sports ... i.e baseball. Many other variables should be taken into account. No shot or play is exactly the same.

Miller is a better 3pt shooter, simple. That you are %10000 correct about. But here are some other VARIABLES to be considered. 1. Melo came in the league 3 years before Reggie Miller, therefore miller during his first couple of years had more experience than Melo at the professional level. 2. Reggie specialty was shooting ... Melo's was scoring, there's a difference. 3. It's not impossible to become a better shooter, which I believe that Melo is becoming ... he has become more focused on developing his range, which I totally understand the heat checks.

No. There's not data to consistently support those numbers .... because truth is...basketball is not as consistent as any other sport. For example, the last 2 years, Gallo have declined as far as shooting percentage, can this be attributed to other variables or will you say that based on the numbers he will steadily decline throughout his career?

But back to the TOPIC ... you guys have a problem with Melo taking "heat check" shots ... even the most inconsistent shooters take these type of shots during an adrenaline rush. For example, Toney Douglas...come on now!

i will say this.. numbers don't lie, we can mis-interpret numbers and manipulate them, but since we can't go back and evaluate each and every one of millers 6000+ threes or carmelo's 2000+ threes we have to take the percentages for what they are... again, don't you think that 2000 shots is a big enough sample size? do you honestly feel if carmelo takes 4000 more threes his percentage will rise almost 7 percentage points? I highly doubt it, actually I bet against it, considering his history of shooting threes and large enough sample size... it is the law of large numbers... the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value..

so my question to you is, do you think that carmelo's 2000+ threes is a large number? I would say so, large enough of a sample size for sure... so let me add, do you think if carmelo doubled his three output he will shot a better percentage? now I am sure you might say, well if he takes better threes, when he is open, etc.... well then we will need another large sample of those kinds of shots to even draw a conclusion..

with that said, there are a lot of variable in sports, but cooch was wrong when he said miller has a better percentage because he has taken more threes... that is not the case because we can go get a list of players who have taken more threes than carmelo and didn't shoot a better percentage.. I can give you antoine "shimmy shake" walker as an example.. he took over 4000 threes and shot just 32%...

this really has gotten off track, it is simple..a comment was made that miller has a better 3pt percentage because he has taken more than carmelo.. that is just not true and there is nothing to support that really...

For example, the last 2 years, Gallo have declined as far as shooting percentage, can this be attributed to other variables or will you say that based on the numbers he will steadily decline throughout his career?

I don't know, maybe the percentages we are seeing from gallo is what he will be shooting... gallo has had injuries, and I am not sure if that is a factor, but I would like to see a larger sample size.... but at this point gallo is a 42% shooter and that is what he is... plain and simple, this is the great thing about taking career averages when you have a large sample size... it takes into account the down years and the years a player has played above his normal numbers... now if you want to take out a season in which a player may have been hurt and didn't play much fine.... but in this case with carmelo and his three point shooting, I don't think we need to adjust anything unless I am missing something that happened in his career...

I guess what it comes down to again, is that dk was against heat check threes, he explained why.. I also agree with him .. we know heat check threes happen, and it doesn't always bother me, but i can understand someone who feels if you are going to take heat check threes, at least be good at taking threes....

tkf wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:What's the argument now against Melo? Seriously, it's hard to keep up with all the attempts to discredit every single positive stat or improvement.

Adrenaline 3s apparently

LMAOOOOOOOO can't be serious. This is beginning to become borderline pathetic.

It started as a "heatck" post and tkf and dk7th turned it into a % troll talk.Tkf, wheres your buddy dk7th?? Maybe you should find another butt buddy.

this is simple.. dk doesn't believe in heat check 3's.... moreso if you are not good shooting threes for your career... so of course % has to come into play, otherwise how do you show if someone is a good shooter from three? cooch wants to win an argument because he says so..... that just won't fly, and when faced with reason, he resorts to this type of behavior that is not conducive to having a reasonable conversation....

edit: dk also mentioned that although no one should be taking heat check 3's, if you do so, it is somewhat more understandable if you are a good three point shooter for your career.. ie: Nash..

Okay, that is understandable, however, "Heat Check 3s" are apart of the game. And during this time that a player is taking these type of shots, they're experiencing an adrenaline rush which can immediately improve athletic performance.

While I agree that moreso high percentage 3 point shooters should take these shots more than a below average shooter, during this time stats are thrown out the window. This is what you call being on "fire" ... it's not just luck it's contributed to the hormones in your body as well. For example, the game Melo had in the olympics or a couple during the season, I have no problem at all with him taking those shots during that time. It doesn't change the complexion of the game if taken at the right time. So maybe that should be the argument.

Also, I want to state as well, the Cooch is right! Although not a huge significance, but according to mathematics and probability laws ... the more you do something the higher your percentage will raise. If you look at Reggie Millers best shooting percentage seasons it's when he's taking more shots. Actually the more you shoot the more comfortable you will be come, and the chance of making that shot increases. Melo best shooting percentage was recorded during his highest 3pt shooting attempts season.

funny you say that... reggie miller shot over 6000 threes, actually 6486,so I took his first 7 seasons worth of threes as a test, 2152 attempts, miller shot 39%.... his next eleven seasons he shot over 4000 threes, guess what his career percentage was? 39% why didn't it go up?

Cooch is trying to say miller has a better % because he has taken more threes than carmelo.. I say hogwash.. miller has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter.. plain and simple....

If you look at Reggie Millers best shooting percentage seasons it's when he's taking more shots.

there is nothing to support that consistently... for example the highest % miller has shot was .429, he had 382 attempts that year in 97-98, he had more attempts in 7 different seasons and didn't surpass that .429.. again this doesn't support what you said or cooch for that matter... in this case cooch is just WRONG, and very defiant in defending a losing position.... I would reconsider backing any of his points especially since he is speaking from emotion here.....

Actually the more you shoot the more comfortable you will be come, and the chance of making that shot increases. Melo best shooting percentage was recorded during his highest 3pt shooting attempts season

well again, there isn't evidence to support that, although I understand what you are trying to say... maybe you do become more comfortable taking that shot, but that does not always mean a better percentage.. in this case miller is better because.. he is just better....

again, you are using ONE year to try to prove your point... what about the year carmelo shot 214 three at 32% his first year and then a few years later took 164 threes and shot 35%

you are not providing enough evidence to support your position, you can't take one year , you have to average out the body of work which is why we are dealing with averages...

again it is simple.... both carmelo and miller have had a large enough sample size to examine their 3pt shooting percentage.. miller's is better because he is a better three point shoooter... simple...

Funny that I say what, exactly??? I specifically said ACCORDING to mathematics and probability laws, that have been used way before there was basketball, greater repetition = greater percentage. Not an opinion .. that's a fact. Now you stated Reggie Miller #s which is proven to be an exception to the rule, but earlier you stated that actually the more you shoot it's the opposite of a greater percentage ... guess that means you aren't completely correct either.

Now, what does these numbers prove??? Exactly what some have been trying to get you and DK to understand. Basketball is not ALL numbers/stats, unlike other sports ... i.e baseball. Many other variables should be taken into account. No shot or play is exactly the same.

Miller is a better 3pt shooter, simple. That you are %10000 correct about. But here are some other VARIABLES to be considered. 1. Melo came in the league 3 years before Reggie Miller, therefore miller during his first couple of years had more experience than Melo at the professional level. 2. Reggie specialty was shooting ... Melo's was scoring, there's a difference. 3. It's not impossible to become a better shooter, which I believe that Melo is becoming ... he has become more focused on developing his range, which I totally understand the heat checks.

No. There's not data to consistently support those numbers .... because truth is...basketball is not as consistent as any other sport. For example, the last 2 years, Gallo have declined as far as shooting percentage, can this be attributed to other variables or will you say that based on the numbers he will steadily decline throughout his career?

But back to the TOPIC ... you guys have a problem with Melo taking "heat check" shots ... even the most inconsistent shooters take these type of shots during an adrenaline rush. For example, Toney Douglas...come on now!

i will say this.. numbers don't lie, we can mis-interpret numbers and manipulate them, but since we can't go back and evaluate each and every one of millers 6000+ threes or carmelo's 2000+ threes we have to take the percentages for what they are... again, don't you think that 2000 shots is a big enough sample size? do you honestly feel if carmelo takes 4000 more threes his percentage will rise almost 7 percentage points? I highly doubt it, actually I bet against it, considering his history of shooting threes and large enough sample size... it is the law of large numbers... the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value..

so my question to you is, do you think that carmelo's 2000+ threes is a large number? I would say so, large enough of a sample size for sure... so let me add, do you think if carmelo doubled his three output he will shot a better percentage? now I am sure you might say, well if he takes better threes, when he is open, etc.... well then we will need another large sample of those kinds of shots to even draw a conclusion..

with that said, there are a lot of variable in sports, but cooch was wrong when he said miller has a better percentage because he has taken more threes... that is not the case because we can go get a list of players who have taken more threes than carmelo and didn't shoot a better percentage.. I can give you antoine "shimmy shake" walker as an example.. he took over 4000 threes and shot just 32%...

this really has gotten off track, it is simple..a comment was made that miller has a better 3pt percentage because he has taken more than carmelo.. that is just not true and there is nothing to support that really...

For example, the last 2 years, Gallo have declined as far as shooting percentage, can this be attributed to other variables or will you say that based on the numbers he will steadily decline throughout his career?

I don't know, maybe the percentages we are seeing from gallo is what he will be shooting... gallo has had injuries, and I am not sure if that is a factor, but I would like to see a larger sample size.... but at this point gallo is a 42% shooter and that is what he is... plain and simple, this is the great thing about taking career averages when you have a large sample size... it takes into account the down years and the years a player has played above his normal numbers... now if you want to take out a season in which a player may have been hurt and didn't play much fine.... but in this case with carmelo and his three point shooting, I don't think we need to adjust anything unless I am missing something that happened in his career...

I guess what it comes down to again, is that dk was against heat check threes, he explained why.. I also agree with him .. we know heat check threes happen, and it doesn't always bother me, but i can understand someone who feels if you are going to take heat check threes, at least be good at taking threes....

I agree ... no real data is known to support that. I will say though that Reggie is a better shooter because 1. Again that's his game 2. He took better shots.

To answer your question though, do I believe that Melo percentage will go up if he attempted more shots? Some laws say yes, but like I said ... it really depends on a number of things.

someone who feels if you are going to take heat check threes, at least be good at taking threes....

Previous years I would have a problem with him taking them, but obviously this is an area of his game that he's been working on and we see the improvement, therefore this is just something that's really not a problem until his average starts to decline or it starts to cost us games.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:Creating your own shot is just having the balls to get a shot up. That's the difference between a guy that will shoot 41 times and not give a **** if he makes 18, it's because he's the guy that's taking it all on his shoulders. Most guys in NBA can create some sort of shot, they just don't have the balls, that's why Melo is a Superstar

that is far from true!

Felton has the balls, he is just bad at creating a high pct shot - oh ... and he also can't shoot

Novak can't create a shot at all...

Chandler can't do anything other than dunk off a pass - zero creation skills

JR can create his own shot though his decision making in regards to the shot he chooses is often flawed

Good passes create shots too, you know? Helping the spacing on the floor creates shots too. People seem to have a misconception that the guy who does the most dribbling is the one creating the shots.

Of course good passes create good shots! Still, someone needs to be able to beat their man at some point - force a double team. This is how the Lakers and the Spurs won so much. Duncan constantly getting doubled and passing out to open men. Shaq too.

Miami won because Lebron kept beating his man and forcing help to arrive.

Not every team has players who can do this.

Running a Princeton or Triangle offense will be worthless without star players who cause mismatches.

Teams fear Melo in ISO because its the highest pct mismatch and (can) create the highest pct shot if executed correctly. In the Miami series, it was the only thing that remotely worked. Their defense was stifling and we could not get any penetration with our horrible guards.

There is a reason why players get max money even when they do not have the top TS, WS or WP. You just believe that NBA GM's have this wrong?

Yes, most GMs do have that wrong. That's why there's almost zero correlation between winning percentage and payroll. How do you explain this lack of correlation? Most GMs are clueless about how much to pay players.

You say "of course good passes create good shots" but then the bold points in your previous post don't make sense since all those players are capable of making good passes (and capable of creating by helping with floor spacing).

I think this sort of conversation helps when it's in context. In absolute terms, I tend to favor what you're saying. In relative terms, I prefer the other side. Meaning, when you compare a bad team to a good team what you're saying holds true... when you're talking about one team with the same players though, things like 'more ball movement' will tend to lead to a more efficient and/or higher quality offense

Hersports85 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote:funny you say that... reggie miller shot over 6000 threes, actually 6486,so I took his first 7 seasons worth of threes as a test, 2152 attempts, miller shot 39%.... his next eleven seasons he shot over 4000 threes, guess what his career percentage was? 39% why didn't it go up?

Cooch is trying to say miller has a better % because he has taken more threes than carmelo.. I say hogwash.. miller has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter.. plain and simple....

I simply love the way you're talking up Reggie Miller as an all-time great 3 point shooter as a way of some how "insulting" Carmelo Anthony himself. Your book is getting very old TKF. Your actions are the same with each and every post. Nothing more than an agenda.

So, Reggie Miller was the better three point shooter when compared to Carmelo Anthony. Big deal. A shooting percentage of .395 from Miller when compared to .331 out of Melo from beyond the arc. A difference of only 0.064%. Big deal.

My question is this: Was Reggie Miller a better (pure) shooter from beyond the arc when compared to Melo, or, was Miller just a better off the ball player ala being able to find wide open shots when compared to Melo who's shots are always contested?

Shooting percentages don't show the entire story TKF. You seem to put alot of focus into overall shooting percentage when comparing a players shooting ability. Which is quite funny to me TKF. You act as if stats show the entire story. For example. Steve Novak (.435%) has a much higher (career) 3PT shooting percentage from beyond the arc when compared to both Reggie Miller (.395%) and Larry Bird (.376%).

So, TKF, if Reggie's shooting percentage is to be used as a final judgement on why Reggie Miller is and/or was the "better" three point shooter when compared to Melo, wouldn't it only be fair to also state that Steve Novak is also a much better three point shooter than both Reggie Miller and Larry Bird? Or, would that not fit your agenda since Melo's not involved in regards to being on the wrong end of the stick? See what I did there? I pulled out the TKF card and looked to "box score numbers". I used a final shooting percentage as the "be all/end all" in regards to Novak being a greater three point shooter when compared to both Miller and Bird.

But, when in actual reality? Anyone with any type of 101 basketball knowledge would understand that both Reggie and Bird's shots were contested as star players while Novak is nothing more than a shooter off the bench. Not game planned for as in a Miller/Bird. His shots have been a lot more wide open when compared to the likes of Melo, Reggie and Bird; Novak's not a star. But yea, by using TKF's logic Novak is a much greater three point shooter when compared to both Bird and Reggie. I mean let's be honest here... The final box score says so. It's that simple...

About to be sarcastic but, Miller and Bird were better from beyond the arc when compared to Novak? I say hogwash... Novak has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter when compared to Miller and Bird.. plain and simple. Now, do you finally see how foolish you sound TKF? Very.

And who really cares if Reggie Miller was a "better" 3 PT shooter when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%? Because at the end of the night, it's all about points per game. It doesn't matter if it's from beyond the arc, free throw line, mid range game etc, etc. It's all about scoring the rock. Melo is a much stronger offensive talent when compared to Reggie Miller. Reggie was great from 3 (most of the time) but Carmelo Anthony is a scoring phenom; something Miller wasn't.

Melo currently has a career average of 24.8 points per game. Reggie only averaged 18.2 points per game. Miller was a better scorer when compared to Melo? I say hogwash... Melo has a much stronger scoring average (per game/per season) when compared to Miller, because he (Melo) is a better offensive force when compared to Miller... plain and simple.

So Reggie has a better 3 PT shooting percentage when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%. What the hell is your point TKF? It doesn't change the fact that Melo's a much stronger offensive beast when compared to Miller, now does it? Career average of 24.8 points per game from Melo when compared to only 18.2 from Miller. 6.3 boards per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 boards from Miller. 3.1 assists per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 assists per game from Miller.

Reggie Miller only had 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons. Melo's already at 16,576 and has yet to complete his 10th NBA season. If Melo continues his season average of 28.3 points per game during our final 55 games? That'll put Melo at 18,132 points after 10 NBA seasons when compared to Miller who was only at 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons.

I'll take the much greater all around scorer in Melo Anthony who's the toughest cover in the game today (just ask Kobe) when compared to a good/great 3 PT shooter such as Reggie Miller.

i am a charitable guy but bad math is bad math.

.064= 6.4% remember sixth grade? you need to move the decimal point two (2) places to the right.... right? geezus come on man

6.4% difference is HUGE.

novak is a better 3-point shooter than bird and miller. BFD. since it's the only thing he does he had better be better and of course he is more easily defended. meanwhile miller got to the line 5 times a game and averaged 3 assists. miller's TS% was an ELITE 61.4%

oh and lets not leave out that miller was the best player on 5 wcf teams. how many conference finals has carmelo led his team to with his crap 54TS%? one and an easy argument can be made that was more because of billups than melo.

you need to look at the overall game of a player to assess his value. and since when has a shooting guard gotten more boards than a forward?

bryant is a vain douche who can't help but endorse another vain douche as an extension of himself. it's classic projection. i look at his comments as an inadvertent damning of anthony.

First, why is it that you try your hardest to downplay Melo's talent or impact on "THIS" team. You're forever trying to make it personal with accusations of this man's character, when in fact you have no personal knowledge of anything about him. You "claim" that you study people, but what science are you basing this on, because if it's psychology, I've already proven that your claim that he's unable to self-reflect is completely inaccurate ... even if you use philosophy, your statements are totally invalid.

Second, as far as basketball ... now we're comparing Melo with Reggie, which is mind blowing because they're 2 different players. Reggie was a knock down shooter, this is what he practiced day in and day out. Melo is a scorer, and does so in a variety of ways, that's why a lot of NBA and Ex players continuously states that he's one of the best scorers in the game. His scoring is not based on efficiency, it's based on volume.

Now, you say that Reggie led his team to 5, I believe you meant ECF, well did you watch the pacers during this time? How can you accredit Billups for helping Melo, but not Mark Jackson, Rik Smits , Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf ... I'll even throw in Vern Fleming (who shot over %50 for most of his career)?? Please look up these guys.

During the year that Denver went to the WCF ... Melo lead the team in points(30.0) Rebounds(8.5) and Steals. Also shot %46. This was with Jr. Smith only shooting %36 ... Melo carried the team that series. He also shot better (%45 to %41) than billups that whole season as well ... while putting up 10 more points per games and still carrying the team in rebounding.

You mention the pacers, but compare the rosters - Indiana had better shooters, leaders and defensive minded players.

Also let's compare the impact of these players since you say Reggie "led" his team ...

Before Melo went to Denver ... they were 17-65! His rookie year, he led them in points and to a record of 43-39 (above .500 right): Next year they improved to 49-33 and actually improved and made the playoffs every year after that. In 2008 they were 50-32 and was the 8th seed (this goes to show that during the time Melo was in the playoffs, the west was completely stacked!!!!!!).

now let's compare Reggie Miller's impact - his first year the Pacers were 38-44 and missed the playoffs .. Funny because the year before they made the playoffs and was 41-41. The following year they finished 28-54 and the next 3 years, the pacers only played .500 basketball. Actually, the Pacers never won over 50 games until they acquired Mark Jackson and during that time a record of 52-30 got you a division title instead of 8th place .... interesting isn't it.

The pacers missed the playoffs twice with Miller ... Denver has not missed a playoff appearance or played .500 or under since drafting melo. Look at the stats ... during the ECF years, Reggie was not always the best player of the floor. Let's be honest.

i don't try very hard to downplay melo, nor do i even need to. he plays the game he way he does and i make observations. in fact i have taken pains to compliment him on his shooting form, his high rate of 3-point shooting, his hustle plays, and even the one head fake he used this season a couple of games ago.

question: do you agree we are constantly evaluating others, reading faces and body language? or are you being taught otherwise? if you say no we are not and that you are being taught otherwise then i don't want to have any further conversation with you. but if you do agree this is the case and this is what you are being taught, then why have a problem with my assessing people like bryant and melo? show me once where we have ever heard melo taking ownership for a loss, or bryant. just once!

lastly i have no interest in comparing melo and miller. that was introduced by nykmentality for reasons beyond my limited comprehension. that said, reggie had some really good teammates. but this is about 3-point shooting, and, as always with me, TS%. my contention is that melo has hurt his team by being an inefficient scorer, ie what has been lauded as a "volume scorer/shooter." this is a ridiculous euphemism for a mediocre shooter, or if not a mediocre shooter then a poor and selfish decision-maker.

dk7th wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote:funny you say that... reggie miller shot over 6000 threes, actually 6486,so I took his first 7 seasons worth of threes as a test, 2152 attempts, miller shot 39%.... his next eleven seasons he shot over 4000 threes, guess what his career percentage was? 39% why didn't it go up?

Cooch is trying to say miller has a better % because he has taken more threes than carmelo.. I say hogwash.. miller has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter.. plain and simple....

I simply love the way you're talking up Reggie Miller as an all-time great 3 point shooter as a way of some how "insulting" Carmelo Anthony himself. Your book is getting very old TKF. Your actions are the same with each and every post. Nothing more than an agenda.

So, Reggie Miller was the better three point shooter when compared to Carmelo Anthony. Big deal. A shooting percentage of .395 from Miller when compared to .331 out of Melo from beyond the arc. A difference of only 0.064%. Big deal.

My question is this: Was Reggie Miller a better (pure) shooter from beyond the arc when compared to Melo, or, was Miller just a better off the ball player ala being able to find wide open shots when compared to Melo who's shots are always contested?

Shooting percentages don't show the entire story TKF. You seem to put alot of focus into overall shooting percentage when comparing a players shooting ability. Which is quite funny to me TKF. You act as if stats show the entire story. For example. Steve Novak (.435%) has a much higher (career) 3PT shooting percentage from beyond the arc when compared to both Reggie Miller (.395%) and Larry Bird (.376%).

So, TKF, if Reggie's shooting percentage is to be used as a final judgement on why Reggie Miller is and/or was the "better" three point shooter when compared to Melo, wouldn't it only be fair to also state that Steve Novak is also a much better three point shooter than both Reggie Miller and Larry Bird? Or, would that not fit your agenda since Melo's not involved in regards to being on the wrong end of the stick? See what I did there? I pulled out the TKF card and looked to "box score numbers". I used a final shooting percentage as the "be all/end all" in regards to Novak being a greater three point shooter when compared to both Miller and Bird.

But, when in actual reality? Anyone with any type of 101 basketball knowledge would understand that both Reggie and Bird's shots were contested as star players while Novak is nothing more than a shooter off the bench. Not game planned for as in a Miller/Bird. His shots have been a lot more wide open when compared to the likes of Melo, Reggie and Bird; Novak's not a star. But yea, by using TKF's logic Novak is a much greater three point shooter when compared to both Bird and Reggie. I mean let's be honest here... The final box score says so. It's that simple...

About to be sarcastic but, Miller and Bird were better from beyond the arc when compared to Novak? I say hogwash... Novak has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter when compared to Miller and Bird.. plain and simple. Now, do you finally see how foolish you sound TKF? Very.

And who really cares if Reggie Miller was a "better" 3 PT shooter when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%? Because at the end of the night, it's all about points per game. It doesn't matter if it's from beyond the arc, free throw line, mid range game etc, etc. It's all about scoring the rock. Melo is a much stronger offensive talent when compared to Reggie Miller. Reggie was great from 3 (most of the time) but Carmelo Anthony is a scoring phenom; something Miller wasn't.

Melo currently has a career average of 24.8 points per game. Reggie only averaged 18.2 points per game. Miller was a better scorer when compared to Melo? I say hogwash... Melo has a much stronger scoring average (per game/per season) when compared to Miller, because he (Melo) is a better offensive force when compared to Miller... plain and simple.

So Reggie has a better 3 PT shooting percentage when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%. What the hell is your point TKF? It doesn't change the fact that Melo's a much stronger offensive beast when compared to Miller, now does it? Career average of 24.8 points per game from Melo when compared to only 18.2 from Miller. 6.3 boards per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 boards from Miller. 3.1 assists per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 assists per game from Miller.

Reggie Miller only had 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons. Melo's already at 16,576 and has yet to complete his 10th NBA season. If Melo continues his season average of 28.3 points per game during our final 55 games? That'll put Melo at 18,132 points after 10 NBA seasons when compared to Miller who was only at 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons.

I'll take the much greater all around scorer in Melo Anthony who's the toughest cover in the game today (just ask Kobe) when compared to a good/great 3 PT shooter such as Reggie Miller.

i am a charitable guy but bad math is bad math.

.064= 6.4% remember sixth grade? you need to move the decimal point two (2) places to the right.... right? geezus come on man

6.4% difference is HUGE.

novak is a better 3-point shooter than bird and miller. BFD. since it's the only thing he does he had better be better and of course he is more easily defended. meanwhile miller got to the line 5 times a game and averaged 3 assists. miller's TS% was an ELITE 61.4%

oh and lets not leave out that miller was the best player on 5 wcf teams. how many conference finals has carmelo led his team to with his crap 54TS%? one and an easy argument can be made that was more because of billups than melo.

you need to look at the overall game of a player to assess his value. and since when has a shooting guard gotten more boards than a forward?

bryant is a vain douche who can't help but endorse another vain douche as an extension of himself. it's classic projection. i look at his comments as an inadvertent damning of anthony.

First, why is it that you try your hardest to downplay Melo's talent or impact on "THIS" team. You're forever trying to make it personal with accusations of this man's character, when in fact you have no personal knowledge of anything about him. You "claim" that you study people, but what science are you basing this on, because if it's psychology, I've already proven that your claim that he's unable to self-reflect is completely inaccurate ... even if you use philosophy, your statements are totally invalid.

Second, as far as basketball ... now we're comparing Melo with Reggie, which is mind blowing because they're 2 different players. Reggie was a knock down shooter, this is what he practiced day in and day out. Melo is a scorer, and does so in a variety of ways, that's why a lot of NBA and Ex players continuously states that he's one of the best scorers in the game. His scoring is not based on efficiency, it's based on volume.

Now, you say that Reggie led his team to 5, I believe you meant ECF, well did you watch the pacers during this time? How can you accredit Billups for helping Melo, but not Mark Jackson, Rik Smits , Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf ... I'll even throw in Vern Fleming (who shot over %50 for most of his career)?? Please look up these guys.

During the year that Denver went to the WCF ... Melo lead the team in points(30.0) Rebounds(8.5) and Steals. Also shot %46. This was with Jr. Smith only shooting %36 ... Melo carried the team that series. He also shot better (%45 to %41) than billups that whole season as well ... while putting up 10 more points per games and still carrying the team in rebounding.

You mention the pacers, but compare the rosters - Indiana had better shooters, leaders and defensive minded players.

Also let's compare the impact of these players since you say Reggie "led" his team ...

Before Melo went to Denver ... they were 17-65! His rookie year, he led them in points and to a record of 43-39 (above .500 right): Next year they improved to 49-33 and actually improved and made the playoffs every year after that. In 2008 they were 50-32 and was the 8th seed (this goes to show that during the time Melo was in the playoffs, the west was completely stacked!!!!!!).

now let's compare Reggie Miller's impact - his first year the Pacers were 38-44 and missed the playoffs .. Funny because the year before they made the playoffs and was 41-41. The following year they finished 28-54 and the next 3 years, the pacers only played .500 basketball. Actually, the Pacers never won over 50 games until they acquired Mark Jackson and during that time a record of 52-30 got you a division title instead of 8th place .... interesting isn't it.

The pacers missed the playoffs twice with Miller ... Denver has not missed a playoff appearance or played .500 or under since drafting melo. Look at the stats ... during the ECF years, Reggie was not always the best player of the floor. Let's be honest.

i don't try very hard to downplay melo, nor do i even need to. he plays the game he way he does and i make observations. in fact i have taken pains to compliment him on his shooting form, his high rate of 3-point shooting, his hustle plays, and even the one head fake he used this season a couple of games ago.

question: do you agree we are constantly evaluating others, reading faces and body language? or are you being taught otherwise? if you say no we are not and that you are being taught otherwise then i don't want to have any further conversation with you. but if you do agree this is the case and this is what you are being taught, then why have a problem with my assessing people like bryant and melo? show me once where we have ever heard melo taking ownership for a loss, or bryant. just once!

lastly i have no interest in comparing melo and miller. that was introduced by nykmentality for reasons beyond my limited comprehension. that said, reggie had some really good teammates. but this is about 3-point shooting, and, as always with me, TS%. my contention is that melo has hurt his team by being an inefficient scorer, ie what has been lauded as a "volume scorer/shooter." this is a ridiculous euphemism for a mediocre shooter, or if not a mediocre shooter then a poor and selfish decision-maker.

Nice try dk ,but seeing that its Christmas I wont even venture there.YouR always trying to pull people into an arguement but I know my fellow posters are WAY to smart for that. You can flip your words anyway you want,AINT HAPPENING.

dk7th wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

tkf wrote:funny you say that... reggie miller shot over 6000 threes, actually 6486,so I took his first 7 seasons worth of threes as a test, 2152 attempts, miller shot 39%.... his next eleven seasons he shot over 4000 threes, guess what his career percentage was? 39% why didn't it go up?

Cooch is trying to say miller has a better % because he has taken more threes than carmelo.. I say hogwash.. miller has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter.. plain and simple....

I simply love the way you're talking up Reggie Miller as an all-time great 3 point shooter as a way of some how "insulting" Carmelo Anthony himself. Your book is getting very old TKF. Your actions are the same with each and every post. Nothing more than an agenda.

So, Reggie Miller was the better three point shooter when compared to Carmelo Anthony. Big deal. A shooting percentage of .395 from Miller when compared to .331 out of Melo from beyond the arc. A difference of only 0.064%. Big deal.

My question is this: Was Reggie Miller a better (pure) shooter from beyond the arc when compared to Melo, or, was Miller just a better off the ball player ala being able to find wide open shots when compared to Melo who's shots are always contested?

Shooting percentages don't show the entire story TKF. You seem to put alot of focus into overall shooting percentage when comparing a players shooting ability. Which is quite funny to me TKF. You act as if stats show the entire story. For example. Steve Novak (.435%) has a much higher (career) 3PT shooting percentage from beyond the arc when compared to both Reggie Miller (.395%) and Larry Bird (.376%).

So, TKF, if Reggie's shooting percentage is to be used as a final judgement on why Reggie Miller is and/or was the "better" three point shooter when compared to Melo, wouldn't it only be fair to also state that Steve Novak is also a much better three point shooter than both Reggie Miller and Larry Bird? Or, would that not fit your agenda since Melo's not involved in regards to being on the wrong end of the stick? See what I did there? I pulled out the TKF card and looked to "box score numbers". I used a final shooting percentage as the "be all/end all" in regards to Novak being a greater three point shooter when compared to both Miller and Bird.

But, when in actual reality? Anyone with any type of 101 basketball knowledge would understand that both Reggie and Bird's shots were contested as star players while Novak is nothing more than a shooter off the bench. Not game planned for as in a Miller/Bird. His shots have been a lot more wide open when compared to the likes of Melo, Reggie and Bird; Novak's not a star. But yea, by using TKF's logic Novak is a much greater three point shooter when compared to both Bird and Reggie. I mean let's be honest here... The final box score says so. It's that simple...

About to be sarcastic but, Miller and Bird were better from beyond the arc when compared to Novak? I say hogwash... Novak has a better % from three because he is a better three point shooter when compared to Miller and Bird.. plain and simple. Now, do you finally see how foolish you sound TKF? Very.

And who really cares if Reggie Miller was a "better" 3 PT shooter when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%? Because at the end of the night, it's all about points per game. It doesn't matter if it's from beyond the arc, free throw line, mid range game etc, etc. It's all about scoring the rock. Melo is a much stronger offensive talent when compared to Reggie Miller. Reggie was great from 3 (most of the time) but Carmelo Anthony is a scoring phenom; something Miller wasn't.

Melo currently has a career average of 24.8 points per game. Reggie only averaged 18.2 points per game. Miller was a better scorer when compared to Melo? I say hogwash... Melo has a much stronger scoring average (per game/per season) when compared to Miller, because he (Melo) is a better offensive force when compared to Miller... plain and simple.

So Reggie has a better 3 PT shooting percentage when compared to Melo by a difference of only 0.064%. What the hell is your point TKF? It doesn't change the fact that Melo's a much stronger offensive beast when compared to Miller, now does it? Career average of 24.8 points per game from Melo when compared to only 18.2 from Miller. 6.3 boards per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 boards from Miller. 3.1 assists per game from Melo when compared to only 3.0 assists per game from Miller.

Reggie Miller only had 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons. Melo's already at 16,576 and has yet to complete his 10th NBA season. If Melo continues his season average of 28.3 points per game during our final 55 games? That'll put Melo at 18,132 points after 10 NBA seasons when compared to Miller who was only at 14,073 points after 10 NBA seasons.

I'll take the much greater all around scorer in Melo Anthony who's the toughest cover in the game today (just ask Kobe) when compared to a good/great 3 PT shooter such as Reggie Miller.

i am a charitable guy but bad math is bad math.

.064= 6.4% remember sixth grade? you need to move the decimal point two (2) places to the right.... right? geezus come on man

6.4% difference is HUGE.

novak is a better 3-point shooter than bird and miller. BFD. since it's the only thing he does he had better be better and of course he is more easily defended. meanwhile miller got to the line 5 times a game and averaged 3 assists. miller's TS% was an ELITE 61.4%

oh and lets not leave out that miller was the best player on 5 wcf teams. how many conference finals has carmelo led his team to with his crap 54TS%? one and an easy argument can be made that was more because of billups than melo.

you need to look at the overall game of a player to assess his value. and since when has a shooting guard gotten more boards than a forward?

bryant is a vain douche who can't help but endorse another vain douche as an extension of himself. it's classic projection. i look at his comments as an inadvertent damning of anthony.

First, why is it that you try your hardest to downplay Melo's talent or impact on "THIS" team. You're forever trying to make it personal with accusations of this man's character, when in fact you have no personal knowledge of anything about him. You "claim" that you study people, but what science are you basing this on, because if it's psychology, I've already proven that your claim that he's unable to self-reflect is completely inaccurate ... even if you use philosophy, your statements are totally invalid.

Second, as far as basketball ... now we're comparing Melo with Reggie, which is mind blowing because they're 2 different players. Reggie was a knock down shooter, this is what he practiced day in and day out. Melo is a scorer, and does so in a variety of ways, that's why a lot of NBA and Ex players continuously states that he's one of the best scorers in the game. His scoring is not based on efficiency, it's based on volume.

Now, you say that Reggie led his team to 5, I believe you meant ECF, well did you watch the pacers during this time? How can you accredit Billups for helping Melo, but not Mark Jackson, Rik Smits , Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf ... I'll even throw in Vern Fleming (who shot over %50 for most of his career)?? Please look up these guys.

During the year that Denver went to the WCF ... Melo lead the team in points(30.0) Rebounds(8.5) and Steals. Also shot %46. This was with Jr. Smith only shooting %36 ... Melo carried the team that series. He also shot better (%45 to %41) than billups that whole season as well ... while putting up 10 more points per games and still carrying the team in rebounding.

You mention the pacers, but compare the rosters - Indiana had better shooters, leaders and defensive minded players.

Also let's compare the impact of these players since you say Reggie "led" his team ...

Before Melo went to Denver ... they were 17-65! His rookie year, he led them in points and to a record of 43-39 (above .500 right): Next year they improved to 49-33 and actually improved and made the playoffs every year after that. In 2008 they were 50-32 and was the 8th seed (this goes to show that during the time Melo was in the playoffs, the west was completely stacked!!!!!!).

now let's compare Reggie Miller's impact - his first year the Pacers were 38-44 and missed the playoffs .. Funny because the year before they made the playoffs and was 41-41. The following year they finished 28-54 and the next 3 years, the pacers only played .500 basketball. Actually, the Pacers never won over 50 games until they acquired Mark Jackson and during that time a record of 52-30 got you a division title instead of 8th place .... interesting isn't it.

The pacers missed the playoffs twice with Miller ... Denver has not missed a playoff appearance or played .500 or under since drafting melo. Look at the stats ... during the ECF years, Reggie was not always the best player of the floor. Let's be honest.

i don't try very hard to downplay melo, nor do i even need to. he plays the game he way he does and i make observations. in fact i have taken pains to compliment him on his shooting form, his high rate of 3-point shooting, his hustle plays, and even the one head fake he used this season a couple of games ago.

question: do you agree we are constantly evaluating others, reading faces and body language? or are you being taught otherwise? if you say no we are not and that you are being taught otherwise then i don't want to have any further conversation with you. but if you do agree this is the case and this is what you are being taught, then why have a problem with my assessing people like bryant and melo? show me once where we have ever heard melo taking ownership for a loss, or bryant. just once!

lastly i have no interest in comparing melo and miller. that was introduced by nykmentality for reasons beyond my limited comprehension. that said, reggie had some really good teammates. but this is about 3-point shooting, and, as always with me, TS%. my contention is that melo has hurt his team by being an inefficient scorer, ie what has been lauded as a "volume scorer/shooter." this is a ridiculous euphemism for a mediocre shooter, or if not a mediocre shooter then a poor and selfish decision-maker.

Of course people are constantly evaluating others, that's apart of being observant. However, there is a difference when you try to act as if your OPINION is based on studies, facts or science. I have no problem
with you stating your opinion, this is a discussion board, what I do have a problem is with you stating that you "study" people or is a psychologist to a degree when you ignore that basic principles of actually applying labels to someone.

I also have a problem when I lay out arguments to you with facts, you ignore them. I never really interject my opinion in any discussion without posting something to back it up. Some of the claims about Melo's character is simply invalid along with you stating that Reggie "led" his team to 5 Eastern Conference Finals and ultimately making his team better than Melo.

Lastly, here are some quotes ... you said he's unable to take ownership of losing. Well I can go back to the years he played in Denver and pull out quotes for you, but let's just look at the last week of what Melo has said:

"I had to reinvent myself. [Ask myself], 'What's my flaws? What am I not doing? What are people saying I'm not doing? What do my teammates want me to do more? How can I be more for my basketball team and for this organization?'

"I don't think I had it in the first half. The energy wasn't there," said Anthony, who had nine points on 3-for-11 shooting at the half. "The momentum, legs, fatigue was setting in."

simrud wrote:Whatever guys - its all factorial anyways.

well done

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=Wins+Produced
Here is a little bit:

And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.

Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?

I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.