HofstraBBall wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think Thibs is in trouble barring a MAJOR showing against Boston. If Knicks get taken care of like most expect I don't think the DET series is going to help him keep his job. Clock is ticking for Leon, Dolan said on Roomates podcast there are no more major moves to be made. So that tells you his mindset. Doubt Leon would allow another year to go by if he's iffy on Thibs getting us to the next level, nor should he with this team smack in their latter primes.

You think Rose has Thibs fighting for his job this series? Come on man!
No one including Rose is expecting much against the reigning champs.

If Rose was iffy on Thibs he would have replaced prior to making all the recent all in moves.

Knicks still need a bench.
Sometimes the small moves make the biggest difference. Aka, IHart, JJart, Divo.

I think Thibs basically lost his job the latter part of the year as this teams offense sputtered back into the type of offense that forced Leon to transform the team to get more offensive weapons. A major showing versus Boston is the only thing that will save it. That’ my opinion. There were rumors that Leon’s number 2 (WWW) wanted to change from Thibs before the extension.

DLeethal wrote:Watching Cleveland surge with a coaching change doesn’t help Thibs cause either

Does Denver even have a coach right now? Coaches are overrated.

DLeethal wrote:Watching Cleveland surge with a coaching change doesn’t help Thibs cause either

What will happen when they lose to Pacers?

Panos wrote:Are we still firing Coach?

There’s upside for Thibs if Knicks show out this series. If they lose in unimpressive fashion I think he’s gone. There’s simply not many more levers to pull for Leon and coach tenure in the NBA has nothing to do with fairness. Thibs is one of the better coaches in Knicks history and even if he gets fired will be revered by fans for putting us back on the map. I think he’s likely gone though. There’s also a middle ground where Leon makes him get a high profile assistant like when they forced Woodson on D’Antoni.

DLeethal wrote:

Panos wrote:Are we still firing Coach?

There’s upside for Thibs if Knicks show out this series. If they lose in unimpressive fashion I think he’s gone. There’s simply not many more levers to pull for Leon and coach tenure in the NBA has nothing to do with fairness. Thibs is one of the better coaches in Knicks history and even if he gets fired will be revered by fans for putting us back on the map. I think he’s likely gone though. There’s also a middle ground where Leon makes him get a high profile assistant like when they forced Woodson on D’Antoni.

I'm going to agree with Fish above, if the Knicks folded to Detroit maybe moving on from Thibs is a thought process that enters into Leon's mind (and obviously we have some hindsight here too, including the opening Boston game).

The Knicks have not figured out their roster this year or come close to maximizing what they want to do. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. Leon and everyone KNEW this was a thin roster cause of the second apron, this was a given. The Knicks purposely hamstrung themselves with regards to their rookie players; my assumption is that this was purposeful (and everyone can find their own definition of what that purpose was for the FO and coaches). We are not complaining about Thibs losing his locker room or individual guys not getting much better across the stretch of the season; to me, that's one hallmark of moving forward or getting better. That's what you want in your organization, with the ask of "by how much did they get better and is that enough?". The next step, one they have not yet succeeded in, is getting that talent to be cohesive and constant.

There is a TON of downside risk to making a coaching change for the sake of change, go ahead and check out what Phoenix is going through (especially since they made the finals). Or even the Lakers.

What we may be frustrated in, and I don't want to put words into anyone's thoughts, is the frustration and patience of watching the sausage being made. It's gross some times. We have found out that Jalen is clutch. We have found out that Hart can **** **** up while getting some triple doubles. We have found out that OG does have god-mode. We have found out that Josh can be left alone and that adjustment also needs to be countered. We have found out that KAT is magnificent offensively but needs to be hounded to make smarter decisions defensively. We have found out that Jalen and KAT are not anywhere near where they need to be as leaders and PnR guys and ISO decision guys. We have found out that Mikal needs to be pushed even more. We have found out that our bench situation is ****. We have found out that there is a lack of ball handling across the board. There is a lot more. Leon already knows this is nowhere near a finished product.

On opening day of training camp, Knicks completely flipped their offense and defense. Integrated 3 new starters. Bench decimated at the opening tip of season. Those are not excuses, they are reality. I've put this out there before and I'd love feedback on it. KAT was delayed into training camp because of the trade. Trade was finalized on Oct 2, after being reported on September 27. The first preseason game this year was Oct 6, so KAT maybe got 2-3 days of camp. Feel like normal camp opens end of Sept, right when the trade was finalized. I dont know how much time coaching staff, and indirectly, players prep for the next season to set up offenses and defenses, especially for teams with new players. What's the normal ramp up time to prepare for that? 1 week? 1 month? Couple of months? Cause the Knicks threw out their playbook and started over about a week before their first preseason game.

I think your bolded makes a lot of assumptions that are antithetical to what Thibs does in general. His teams are very prepared, the players keep telling us this. From there, it is execution done by the players. My question: why does your assumption start there? Because it does not really match the players or the coach, give or take. They can all play poorly or **** up the call to get Hart/Brunson in a last minute but that's kinda common across every team.

For me, what you are kinda indicating with the bolded is that (pretty much) only the very last thing the Knicks do in the playoffs against the previous winner will be used to decide whether or not Thibs will stick around. I don't think that's the Leon thought process. Leon makes plans way ahead of time and is not rushed into decisions. He latches on to ideas - OG, KAT, and Brunson before them - and goes after it. I don't think he outweighs just the last thing on the list of Thibs decision points.

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Panos wrote:Are we still firing Coach?

There’s upside for Thibs if Knicks show out this series. If they lose in unimpressive fashion I think he’s gone. There’s simply not many more levers to pull for Leon and coach tenure in the NBA has nothing to do with fairness. Thibs is one of the better coaches in Knicks history and even if he gets fired will be revered by fans for putting us back on the map. I think he’s likely gone though. There’s also a middle ground where Leon makes him get a high profile assistant like when they forced Woodson on D’Antoni.

I'm going to agree with Fish above, if the Knicks folded to Detroit maybe moving on from Thibs is a thought process that enters into Leon's mind (and obviously we have some hindsight here too, including the opening Boston game).

The Knicks have not figured out their roster this year or come close to maximizing what they want to do. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. Leon and everyone KNEW this was a thin roster cause of the second apron, this was a given. The Knicks purposely hamstrung themselves with regards to their rookie players; my assumption is that this was purposeful (and everyone can find their own definition of what that purpose was for the FO and coaches). We are not complaining about Thibs losing his locker room or individual guys not getting much better across the stretch of the season; to me, that's one hallmark of moving forward or getting better. That's what you want in your organization, with the ask of "by how much did they get better and is that enough?". The next step, one they have not yet succeeded in, is getting that talent to be cohesive and constant.

There is a TON of downside risk to making a coaching change for the sake of change, go ahead and check out what Phoenix is going through (especially since they made the finals). Or even the Lakers.

What we may be frustrated in, and I don't want to put words into anyone's thoughts, is the frustration and patience of watching the sausage being made. It's gross some times. We have found out that Jalen is clutch. We have found out that Hart can **** **** up while getting some triple doubles. We have found out that OG does have god-mode. We have found out that Josh can be left alone and that adjustment also needs to be countered. We have found out that KAT is magnificent offensively but needs to be hounded to make smarter decisions defensively. We have found out that Jalen and KAT are not anywhere near where they need to be as leaders and PnR guys and ISO decision guys. We have found out that Mikal needs to be pushed even more. We have found out that our bench situation is ****. We have found out that there is a lack of ball handling across the board. There is a lot more. Leon already knows this is nowhere near a finished product.

On opening day of training camp, Knicks completely flipped their offense and defense. Integrated 3 new starters. Bench decimated at the opening tip of season. Those are not excuses, they are reality. I've put this out there before and I'd love feedback on it. KAT was delayed into training camp because of the trade. Trade was finalized on Oct 2, after being reported on September 27. The first preseason game this year was Oct 6, so KAT maybe got 2-3 days of camp. Feel like normal camp opens end of Sept, right when the trade was finalized. I dont know how much time coaching staff, and indirectly, players prep for the next season to set up offenses and defenses, especially for teams with new players. What's the normal ramp up time to prepare for that? 1 week? 1 month? Couple of months? Cause the Knicks threw out their playbook and started over about a week before their first preseason game.

I think your bolded makes a lot of assumptions that are antithetical to what Thibs does in general. His teams are very prepared, the players keep telling us this. From there, it is execution done by the players. My question: why does your assumption start there? Because it does not really match the players or the coach, give or take. They can all play poorly or **** up the call to get Hart/Brunson in a last minute but that's kinda common across every team.

For me, what you are kinda indicating with the bolded is that (pretty much) only the very last thing the Knicks do in the playoffs against the previous winner will be used to decide whether or not Thibs will stick around. I don't think that's the Leon thought process. Leon makes plans way ahead of time and is not rushed into decisions. He latches on to ideas - OG, KAT, and Brunson before them - and goes after it. I don't think he outweighs just the last thing on the list of Thibs decision points.

Here are my scattered thoughts on the matter:

- It's been widely reported that there were factions within Knicks brass who didn't want to give Thibs an extension (Leon's #2 WWW etc.)
- Thibs crop of assistants has been less and less impressive every year
- Leon emptied his chips last offseason in a bid to transform the way the Knicks play, which he obv thought was deficient for a legitimate championship run
- After looking the part of an elite offensive team for maybe half the year, they slowly turned into the same kind of team Thibs has coached his entire career, which was largely focused around one player's ball dominance. The calls for Thibs' head due to this have become much louder by voices who have had Thibs' back for years, in terms of media figures etc... The seat got hotter and hotter through the DET series. Essentially you can no longer blame the roster for lack of coherent offensive attack. It all falls on coaching now because the offensive talent is elite but the production is not.
- There is no ability to make major trades anymore, so is Leon going to accept this team performing less than a sum of its parts on offense for another year?
- This current Knick window is relatively short before roster retooling is necessary. If Leon is not 100% sold on Thibs for the next 3 years, then I think he makes his move this year. It doesn't really make sense to wait out another year unless he's sold on him for the entire run in my opinion.

In Thibs favor:
- The bench is CLEARLY lacking in a major way. Does Leon give him a pass as he tries to round out the roster? I'm iffy on this though, because many teams are forced to use rookies and cheap labor off their bench due to the apron restraints. Boston developed guys like Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet into a coherent bench. Indiana has a bunch of guys I never heard of coming off the bench. Thibs obv does not care to have a roadmap of bench development at this stage. It's perform or get yanked.
- He has the backing of Brunson, which might be the most important thing of all.
- Knicks while looking very shaky during the DET series, did eventually expel of them in 6 games although by pure luck to some degree
- Knick just had the best playoff win in 25 years last night and are up 1-0 on the champs.

In many ways, majority of coaches is coaching for their lives during a given playoff run. If you get upset by a worse team or underperform, many coaches will be instacanned. I don't think anyone would argue if we ended up losing to DET that Thibs would be gone. So it really does come down to series by series to some degree.

DLeethal wrote:Here are my scattered thoughts on the matter:

- It's been widely reported that there were factions within Knicks brass who didn't want to give Thibs an extension (Leon's #2 WWW etc.)

In an organization that does not leak, I don't doubt there are disagreements on big decision. This is NORMAL for pretty much every organization under the sun. Plus, I'm sure Johnny Bryant didn't care that Thibs got extended and he wasn't able to take over. Like that.

- Thibs crop of assistants has been less and less impressive every year

You and I have exactly zero clue on how any of the assistants perform. Zero. If this is otherwise, substantiate that for me. They also hired the best big man coach in the business. They also hired the best med team in the business. Leon does not fool around across the board.

- Leon emptied his chips last offseason in a bid to transform the way the Knicks play, which he obv thought was deficient for a legitimate championship run

At the time of the Mikal trade, the roster would have looked like this:

Jalen, Mikal, OG, Randle, iHart
Payne, McBride, DDV, Hart, Mitch

iHart decision ****ed that up, not Leon going for Mikal; the above was the championship team that was more primed than this version. iHart stays and Mitch is healthy sooner, then YES, they do have something very different. Again, iHart ****ed that up.

We could also say that the Knicks managed their cap and Brunson's extension magnificently while also staying under the second apron. The Knicks NEEDED to maximize the Bojan contract BECAUSE of the second apron WHILE keeping Brunson at a much lower cost. What was Brunson's ask to the lower contract? I think it is reasonable to say it was Mikal. That was the tradeoff. You don't trade for Mikal, perhaps Brunson does not budge.

- After looking the part of an elite offensive team for maybe half the year, they slowly turned into the same kind of team Thibs has coached his entire career, which was largely focused around one player's ball dominance. The calls for Thibs' head due to this have become much louder by voices who have had Thibs' back for years, in terms of media figures etc... The seat got hotter and hotter through the DET series. Essentially you can no longer blame the roster for lack of coherent offensive attack. It all falls on coaching now because the offensive talent is elite but the production is not.

Let me know what teams outside of exactly 2 extraordinary teams in the NBA don't have ups and downs in the regular season. Also, you need to get me your gauge on how you KNOW who is on the hot seat and not so much, cause I don't agree with you and don't think you can really substantiate that.

- There is no ability to make major trades anymore, so is Leon going to accept this team performing less than a sum of its parts on offense for another year?

False. The Knicks managed their cap extraordinarily well. They will be about $9M under the second apron and will be able to combine contracts, unlike Boston and Cleveland and others. They have plenty of space to make trades, it's just about the willingness to do so. You made up that hurdle out of nowhere.

- This current Knick window is relatively short before roster retooling is necessary. If Leon is not 100% sold on Thibs for the next 3 years, then I think he makes his move this year. It doesn't really make sense to wait out another year unless he's sold on him for the entire run in my opinion.

The Knicks have about a 3-4 year window at least. Every single player of consequence is under 30. What other teams are in a better or different position outside of OKC?

In Thibs favor:
- The bench is CLEARLY lacking in a major way. Does Leon give him a pass as he tries to round out the roster?
- He has the backing of Brunson, which might be the most important thing of all.
- Knicks while looking very shaky during the DET series, did eventually expel of them in 6 games although by pure luck to some degree
- Knick just had the best playoff win in 25 years last night and are up 1-0 on the champs.

In many ways, majority of coaches is coaching for their lives during a given playoff run. If you get upset by a worse team or underperform, many coaches will be instacanned. I don't think anyone would argue if we ended up losing to DET that Thibs would be gone. So it really does come down to series by series to some degree.