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Allanfan20
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8/25/2020  4:01 PM
martin wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
martin wrote:I cannot think of one positive reason for this to happen

$hit that’s bad. I think Trump would do ANYTHING not to lose this election. That’s f’ing scary.

It was already scary 4 years ago when dumbasses thought it was a good idea to vote for this douchebag

I agree. The problem is that they’d re-elect him.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
AUTOADVERT
Allanfan20
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8/26/2020  11:25 AM
Good news despite a tiny sample size.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/08/26/moderna-says-its-coronavirus-vaccine-shows-promising-results-in-small-trial-of-elderly-patients.html
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
martin
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8/26/2020  5:17 PM

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martin
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8/26/2020  6:46 PM
Profits over people

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BigDaddyG
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8/26/2020  7:06 PM
martin wrote:Profits over people

I love how there's nothing in here about refunding tuition or fees

But students and staff say the program is anything but “robust.” If a student tests positive on campus, the COVID Support Program is automatically informed and the university reaches out. But students who test positive with an off-campus provider are directed to call a school-sponsored COVID-19 hotline that usually goes to voicemail, and can take anywhere from 24 to 48 hours for a response. (Watts said there is also an online reporting option.)

When they do get a response, positive or exposed students are moved to special dorms to quarantine or isolate. Multiple students told The Daily Beast that they had seen students leaving those dorms to get food or go out on the weekend. When the alarmed students called residential housing, they were informed that the isolation process works on an “honor system,” in which students alone are responsible for making sure they maintain quarantine properly.

Sarah Ortbal lives in a building next door to the quarantine dorms and shares laundry facilities with those five buildings. She said the school never informed her that she would be living next to exposed students. When a friend discovered this and emailed the school to request different housing, they suggested she move off campus.

Bailey Lanai, a resident advisor on campus, said he called the housing department to report several violations of the quarantine rules and was told that while students would be punished for breaking the rules, there was no one specifically in charge of enforcing them.

“There’s a pretty massive communication breakdown happening between the students quarantine and whoever is supposed to be in charge of them,” he said, adding: “It really just seems like they did not think this through.”

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Clean
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8/29/2020  5:00 PM
martin
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8/30/2020  1:00 PM

https://iowastartingline.com/2020/08/30/ames-iowa-city-covid-outbreaks-are-worst-in-the-world/

Iowa’s exploding COVID-19 outbreaks at state universities in Ames and Iowa City are now disasters that can only be fully measured on a global scale. Ames holds the distinction this morning as the worst coronavirus outbreak in the entire United States, while Iowa City is at third on the list. The per capita rates are worse than any individual country in the world, and appear to surpass any state in some of the other currently hardest-hit countries.

According to the New York Times COVID-19 tracker, Ames has had 956 new cases in the past two weeks, while Iowa City has counted 1,489. In the past seven days, Story County’s per capita infection rate is 797 per 100,000 people, with Johnson County coming in at 787 per 100,000.

Those represent some of the worst, if not the absolute worst, local spread in the world. It is far more than any individual country’s current per capita spread. Some tiny nations, like Aruba (417 cases per 100,000 population in last week) and the Turks and Caicos (284 per 100,000) currently sit at the top of the world’s nation per capita rates, though that’s in part due to their small size. Peru and Colombia have 157 and 150 per 100,000 recent spread, respectively.

Not many tracker sites break out other countries by metro area, but we can compare Ames and Iowa City to individual states in other countries where the pandemic is spreading fast. Brazil’s worst states are Tocatins (440 per 100,000 in past week) and Distrito Federal (420 per 100,000). India’s worst states are also not as bad as Iowa’s two major college cities — Puducherry has a 276 per 100,000 rate, while Gao is at 189 per 100,000.

But the worst may be yet to come. The New York Times also places both Ames and Iowa City as first and third on their list of “Where there may be bad news ahead.”

Many of America’s colleges and universities have proven to be fully unprepared for students’ return, choosing to offer vague assurances over the summer to get students and, importantly, their tuition and residence money back on campus. The second-worst city is Auburn, Alabama, where Auburn University has seen a swift outbreak.

But the incompetence of Gov. Kim Reynolds and leaders at Iowa’s two largest universities, as well as the reckless irresponsibility of many of their returning students who have packed bars and house parties, represent a global embarrassment.

On Friday, the University of Iowa reported 500 new positive COVID-19 cases from students. Johnson County’s positivity rate on Friday was a disastrous 55.5%, while Story County’s Friday positivity rate was even worse at 65.5%. That means that well over half of the people who take a test are testing positive. Gov. Kim Reynolds has received significant criticism for setting a 15% positivity rate as the metric for deciding whether local K-12 schools can go online-only for a time.

After scenes of massive student parties the week prior, Reynolds ordered the closure of bars and nightclubs in Story, Johnson, Black Hawk, Polk, Dallas and Linn counties. But the damage had already been done.

by Pat Rynard
Posted 8/30/20

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martin
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8/30/2020  1:30 PM
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Clean
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8/31/2020  10:12 AM
Disinformation and politics will be the death of so many in this country.

1. Americans in general are way more unhealthy and have way more comorbidities than other countries. So our death numbers will naturally be higher.

2. We are the only place hiding and juking the stats to make our situation seem better than it is. Notice the outrage has gone down considerably now that Trump has routed all info to his team? Notice the huge increase in Pneumonia and death over every previous year?

A month or so ago it came out that if a person clearly died due to Covid in their home but never got tested they did not count as a covid death.

3. People using junk info/stats to downplay it. They like to compare it to the flu but conveniently ignoring that way more have died in a few months than the flu does in a year. This is with months of quarantine, social distancing and a majority of people wearing masks. Can you imagine how bad it would have been without those 3 things?

They also count all recovered people the same. No matter what life long issues you will now have or how many months you were stuck in a hospital or how close to death you was. In their eyes everyone who recovered were all Asymptomatic.

I am to the point where I want all these people who downplay this virus to catch it and let Darwinism play its course. They will never learn until they get burned or they burn someone who they love. Them learning the hard way early might be what is best for the general public in the long term.

martin
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8/31/2020  11:58 AM
It's a nut punch

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smackeddog
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8/31/2020  12:04 PM
Clean wrote:Disinformation and politics will be the death of so many in this country.

1. Americans in general are way more unhealthy and have way more comorbidities than other countries. So our death numbers will naturally be higher.

2. We are the only place hiding and juking the stats to make our situation seem better than it is. Notice the outrage has gone down considerably now that Trump has routed all info to his team? Notice the huge increase in Pneumonia and death over every previous year?

A month or so ago it came out that if a person clearly died due to Covid in their home but never got tested they did not count as a covid death.

3. People using junk info/stats to downplay it. They like to compare it to the flu but conveniently ignoring that way more have died in a few months than the flu does in a year. This is with months of quarantine, social distancing and a majority of people wearing masks. Can you imagine how bad it would have been without those 3 things?

They also count all recovered people the same. No matter what life long issues you will now have or how many months you were stuck in a hospital or how close to death you was. In their eyes everyone who recovered were all Asymptomatic.

I am to the point where I want all these people who downplay this virus to catch it and let Darwinism play its course. They will never learn until they get burned or they burn someone who they love. Them learning the hard way early might be what is best for the general public in the long term.

Yep, people saying 'oh just let this this play out' either don't think they'll die from it or don't think anyone they care about will. Anyone who experiences a bereavement of someone they love thinks completely differently, because death f***** sucks.

smackeddog
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8/31/2020  12:08 PM
martin wrote:It's a nut punch

No one is going to go about their lives normally if a disease is all around them and people are dying (apart from far right conspiracy morons)- herd immunity theorists didn't even account for that, it was the most ridiculous policy of the modern age- why go to that before you know even the basics about a disease?

KnickDanger
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8/31/2020  12:23 PM
What bugs me in this day and age is there is no balance in how people approach a subject. It's all black and white, blue or red, them and us. I am 64 years old, I had Covid-19. My health was good, I eat pretty well exercise etc. My symptoms were that of a flu for a week or two. Then I lost my sense of smell! Now I am dealing with a palpable fatigue -- intermittent and not crippling but palpable.

Along with this my industry is essentially wiped out. I work freelance -- I have not worked since March and have two gigs slated in the Fall which may or may not happen. So I posit, which will exact the most damage in the long run -- the virus or the wrecking of an economy? That is a question not a screamed all or nothing statement or a hashtag.

smackeddog
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8/31/2020  12:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/31/2020  12:39 PM
KnickDanger wrote:What bugs me in this day and age is there is no balance in how people approach a subject. It's all black and white, blue or red, them and us. I am 64 years old, I had Covid-19. My health was good, I eat pretty well exercise etc. My symptoms were that of a flu for a week or two. Then I lost my sense of smell! Now I am dealing with a palpable fatigue -- intermittent and not crippling but palpable.

Along with this my industry is essentially wiped out. I work freelance -- I have not worked since March and have two gigs slated in the Fall which may or may not happen. So I posit, which will exact the most damage in the long run -- the virus or the wrecking of an economy? That is a question not a screamed all or nothing statement or a hashtag.

I hope you recover your full health soon, must be incredibly frustrating deal with fatigue and loss of smell. It sound weird, but it's exhausting feeling exhausted a lot of the time.

For me this whole "it's either the economy or health" was a false choice- both are interlinked. I think people like yourself should absolutely have been given better financial support (in the UK free lancers got 70-80% their average income over the past 3 years, for 6 months)- yet a decision was made not to, instead the bulk of the aid went to corporations with little debate.

The reason there's little balance is because the political tactic of the day is to polarize an issue and fire up as many people as you can onto your side, and Trump is very effective at that. It's hard to reason when people are fired up about something (we all know that feeling!). So the aim is expressly not to unify, but to divide, but make sure you have more fired up supporters than the other side.

BigDaddyG
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8/31/2020  12:35 PM
KnickDanger wrote:What bugs me in this day and age is there is no balance in how people approach a subject. It's all black and white, blue or red, them and us. I am 64 years old, I had Covid-19. My health was good, I eat pretty well exercise etc. My symptoms were that of a flu for a week or two. Then I lost my sense of smell! Now I am dealing with a palpable fatigue -- intermittent and not crippling but palpable.

Along with this my industry is essentially wiped out. I work freelance -- I have not worked since March and have two gigs slated in the Fall which may or may not happen. So I posit, which will exact the most damage in the long run -- the virus or the wrecking of an economy? That is a question not a screamed all or nothing statement or a hashtag.


I don't see this as an either/or answer. They're connected and you can't get started in addressing one issue without addressing the other. All you can do is control your behavior and take precautions. We're all powerless at this point.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
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8/31/2020  12:40 PM
KnickDanger wrote:What bugs me in this day and age is there is no balance in how people approach a subject. It's all black and white, blue or red, them and us. I am 64 years old, I had Covid-19. My health was good, I eat pretty well exercise etc. My symptoms were that of a flu for a week or two. Then I lost my sense of smell! Now I am dealing with a palpable fatigue -- intermittent and not crippling but palpable.

Along with this my industry is essentially wiped out. I work freelance -- I have not worked since March and have two gigs slated in the Fall which may or may not happen. So I posit, which will exact the most damage in the long run -- the virus or the wrecking of an economy? That is a question not a screamed all or nothing statement or a hashtag.

Thanks for sharing and best of health.

And I agree with the above, both are intertwined. Got to fix the health portion first or long term economy will drag. Seems like gov't gave up and are waiting on vaccine as it is a miracle cure, unfortunately it won't effect economy in a good enough way over short to medium time frame.

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martin
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8/31/2020  12:51 PM
Oh FFS

New Trump pandemic adviser pushes controversial ‘herd immunity’ strategy, worrying public health officials
Yasmeen Abutaleb


The administration has already begun to implement some policies along these lines, according to current and former officials as well as experts, particularly with regard to testing.

The approach’s chief proponent is Scott Atlas, a neuroradiologist from Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institution, who joined the White House earlier this month as a pandemic adviser. He has advocated that the United States adopt the model Sweden has used to respond to the virus outbreak, according to these officials, which relies on lifting restrictions so the healthy can build up immunity to the disease rather than limiting social and business interactions to prevent the virus from spreading.

Sweden’s handling of the pandemic has been heavily criticized by public health officials and infectious-disease experts as reckless — the country has among the highest infection and death rates in the world. It also hasn’t escaped the deep economic problems resulting from the pandemic.

But Sweden’s approach has gained support among some conservatives who argue that social distancing restrictions are crushing the economy and infringing on people’s liberties.

That this approach is even being discussed inside the White House is drawing concern from experts inside and outside the government who note that a herd immunity strategy could lead to the country suffering hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lost lives.

“The administration faces some pretty serious hurdles in making this argument. One is a lot of people will die, even if you can protect people in nursing homes,” said Paul Romer, a professor at New York University who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 2018. “Once it’s out in the community, we’ve seen over and over again, it ends up spreading everywhere.”

Atlas, who does not have a background in infectious diseases or epidemiology, has expanded his influence inside the White House by advocating policies that appeal to Trump’s desire to move past the pandemic and get the economy going, distressing health officials on the White House coronavirus task force and throughout the administration who worry that their advice is being followed less and less.

Atlas declined several interview requests in recent days. After the publication of this story, he released a statement through the White House: “There is no policy of the President or this administration of achieving herd immunity. There never has been any such policy recommended to the President or to anyone else from me.”

White House communications director Alyssa Farah said there is no change in the White House’s approach toward combatting the pandemic.

“President Trump is fully focused on defeating the virus through therapeutics and ultimately a vaccine. There is no discussion about changing our strategy,” she said in a statement. “We have initiated an unprecedented effort under Operation Warp Speed to safely bring a vaccine to market in record time — ending this virus through medicine is our top focus.”

White House officials said Trump has asked questions about herd immunity but has not formally embraced the strategy. The president, however, has made public comments that advocate a similar approach.

“We are aggressively sheltering those at highest risk, especially the elderly, while allowing lower-risk Americans to safely return to work and to school, and we want to see so many of those great states be open,” he said during his address to the Republican National Convention Thursday night. “We want them to be open. They have to be open. They have to get back to work.”

Atlas has fashioned himself as the “anti-Dr. Fauci,” one senior administration official said, referring to Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-disease official, who has repeatedly been at odds with the president over his public comments about the threat posed by the virus. He has clashed with Fauci as well as Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, over the administration’s pandemic response.

Atlas has argued both internally and in public that an increased case count will move the nation more quickly to herd immunity and won’t lead to more deaths if the vulnerable are protected. But infectious-disease experts strongly dispute that, noting that more than 25,000 people younger than 65 have died of the virus in the United States. In addition, the United States has a higher number of vulnerable people of all ages because of high rates of heart and lung disease and obesity, and millions of vulnerable people live outside nursing homes — many in the same households with children, whom Atlas believes should return to school.

“When younger, healthier people get the disease, they don’t have a problem with the disease. I’m not sure why that’s so difficult for everyone to acknowledge,” Atlas said in an interview with Fox News’s Brian Kilmeade in July. “These people getting the infection is not really a problem and in fact, as we said months ago, when you isolate everyone, including all the healthy people, you’re prolonging the problem because you’re preventing population immunity. Low-risk groups getting the infection is not a problem.”

Atlas has said that lockdowns and social distancing restrictions during the pandemic have had a health cost as well, noting the problems associated with unemployment and people forgoing health care because they are afraid to visit a doctor.

“From personal communications with neurosurgery colleagues, about half of their patients have not appeared for treatment of disease which, left untreated, risks brain hemorrhage, paralysis or death,” he wrote in The Hill newspaper in May

The White House has left many of the day-to-day decisions regarding the pandemic to governors and local officials, many of whom have disregarded Trump’s advice, making it unclear how many states would embrace the Swedish model, or elements of it, if Trump begins to aggressively push for it to be adopted.

But two senior administration officials and one former official, as well as medical experts, noted that the administration is already taking steps to move the country in this direction.

The Department of Health and Human Services, for instance, invoked the Defense Production Act earlier this month to expedite the shipment of tests to nursing homes — but the administration has not significantly ramped up spending on testing elsewhere, despite persistent shortages. Trump and top White House aides, including Atlas, have also repeatedly pushed to reopen schools and lift lockdown orders, despite outbreaks in several schools that attempted to resume in-person classes.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also updated its testing guidance last week to say that those who are asymptomatic do not necessarily have to be tested. That prompted an outcry from medical groups, infectious-disease experts and local health officials, who said the change meant that asymptomatic people who had contact with an infected person would not be tested. The CDC estimates that about 40 percent of people infected with covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, are asymptomatic, and experts said much of the summer surge in infections was due to asymptomatic spread among young, healthy people.

Trump has previously floated “going herd” before being convinced by Fauci and others that it was not a good idea, according to one official.

The discussions come as at least 5.9 million infections have been reported and at least 179,000 have died from the virus this year and as public opinion polls show that Trump’s biggest liability with voters in his contest against Democratic nominee Joe Biden is his handling of the pandemic. The United States leads the world in coronavirus cases and deaths, with far more casualties and infections than any other developed nation.

The nations that have most successfully managed the coronavirus outbreak imposed stringent lockdown measures that a vast majority of the country abided by, quickly ramped up testing and contact tracing, and imposed mask mandates.

Atlas meets with Trump almost every day, far more than any other health official, and inside the White House is viewed as aligned with the president and White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows on how to handle the outbreak, according to three senior administration officials.

In meetings, Atlas has argued that metropolitan areas such as New York, Chicago and New Orleans have already reached herd immunity, according to two senior administration officials. But Birx and Fauci have disputed that, arguing that even cities that peaked to potential herd immunity levels experience similar levels of infection if they reopen too quickly, the officials said.

Trump asked Birx in a meeting last month whether New York and New Jersey had reached herd immunity, according to a senior administration official. Birx told the president there was not enough data to support that conclusion.

Atlas has supporters who argue that his presence in the White House is a good thing and that he brings a new perspective.

“Epidemiology is not the only discipline that matters for public policy here. That is a fundamentally wrong way to think about this whole situation,” said Avik Roy, president of the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, a think tank that researches market-based solutions to help low-income Americans. “You have to think about what are the costs of lockdowns, what are the trade-offs, and those are fundamentally subjective judgments policymakers have to make.”

It remains unclear how large a percentage of the population must become infected to achieve “herd immunity,” which is when enough people become immune to a disease that it slows its spread, even among those who have not been infected. That can occur either through mass vaccination efforts, or when enough people in the population become infected with coronavirus and develop antibodies that protect them against future infection.

Estimates have ranged from 20 percent to 70 percent for how much of a population would need to be infected. Soumya Swaminathan, the World Health Organization’s chief scientist, said given the transmissibility of the novel coronavirus, it is likely that about 65 to 70 percent of the population would need to become infected for there to be herd immunity.

With a population of 328 million in the United States, it may require 2.13 million deaths to reach a 65 percent threshold of herd immunity, assuming the virus has a 1 percent fatality rate, according to an analysis by The Washington Post.

It also remains unclear whether people who recover from covid-19 have long-term immunity to the virus or can become reinfected, and scientists are still learning who is vulnerable to the disease. From a practical standpoint, it is also nearly impossible to sufficiently isolate people at most risk of dying due to the virus from the younger, healthier population, according to public health experts.

Atlas has argued that the country should only be testing people with symptoms, despite the fact that asymptomatic carriers spread the virus. He has also repeatedly pushed to reopen schools and advocated for college sports to resume. Atlas has said, without evidence, that children do not spread the virus and do not have any real risk from covid-19, arguing that more children die of influenza — an argument he has made in television and radio interviews.

Atlas’s appointment comes after Trump earlier this summer encouraged his White House advisers to find a new doctor who would argue an alternative point of view from Birx and Fauci, whom the president has grown increasingly annoyed with for public comments that he believes contradict his own assertions that the threat of the virus is receding. Advisers sought a doctor with Ivy League or top university credentials who could make the case on television that the virus is a receding threat.

Atlas caught Trump’s attention with a spate of Fox News appearances in recent months, and the president has found a more simpatico figure in the Stanford doctor for his push to reopen the country so he can focus on his reelection. Atlas now often sits in the briefing room with Trump during his coronavirus news conferences, even as other doctors do not. He has given the president somewhat of a medical imprimatur for his statements and regularly helps draft the administration’s coronavirus talking points from his West Wing office as well as the slides that Trump often relies on for his argument of a diminishing threat.

Atlas has also said he is unsure “scientifically” whether masks make sense, despite broad consensus among scientists that they are effective. He has selectively presented research and findings that support his argument for herd immunity and his other ideas, two senior administration officials said.

Fauci and Birx have both said the virus is a threat in every part of the country. They have also put forward policy recommendations that the president views as too draconian, including mask mandates and partial lockdowns in areas experiencing surges of the virus.

Birx has been at odds with Atlas on several occasions, with one disagreement growing so heated at a coronavirus meeting earlier this month that other administration officials grew uncomfortable, according to a senior administration official.

One of the main points of tension between the two is over school reopenings. Atlas has pushed to reopen schools and Birx is more cautious.

“This is really unfortunate to have this fellow Scott Atlas, who was basically recruited to crowd out Tony Fauci and the voice of reason,” said Eric Topol, a cardiologist and head of the Scripps Research Translational Institute in San Diego. “Not only do we not embrace the science, but we repudiate the science by our president, and that has extended by bringing in another unreliable misinformation vector.”

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martin
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8/31/2020  1:32 PM
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martin
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8/31/2020  1:36 PM
I can't believe this is still ongoing

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Clean
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8/31/2020  1:48 PM
martin wrote:Oh FFS

New Trump pandemic adviser pushes controversial ‘herd immunity’ strategy, worrying public health officials
Yasmeen Abutaleb


The administration has already begun to implement some policies along these lines, according to current and former officials as well as experts, particularly with regard to testing.

The approach’s chief proponent is Scott Atlas, a neuroradiologist from Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institution, who joined the White House earlier this month as a pandemic adviser. He has advocated that the United States adopt the model Sweden has used to respond to the virus outbreak, according to these officials, which relies on lifting restrictions so the healthy can build up immunity to the disease rather than limiting social and business interactions to prevent the virus from spreading.

Sweden’s handling of the pandemic has been heavily criticized by public health officials and infectious-disease experts as reckless — the country has among the highest infection and death rates in the world. It also hasn’t escaped the deep economic problems resulting from the pandemic.

But Sweden’s approach has gained support among some conservatives who argue that social distancing restrictions are crushing the economy and infringing on people’s liberties.

That this approach is even being discussed inside the White House is drawing concern from experts inside and outside the government who note that a herd immunity strategy could lead to the country suffering hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lost lives.

“The administration faces some pretty serious hurdles in making this argument. One is a lot of people will die, even if you can protect people in nursing homes,” said Paul Romer, a professor at New York University who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 2018. “Once it’s out in the community, we’ve seen over and over again, it ends up spreading everywhere.”

Atlas, who does not have a background in infectious diseases or epidemiology, has expanded his influence inside the White House by advocating policies that appeal to Trump’s desire to move past the pandemic and get the economy going, distressing health officials on the White House coronavirus task force and throughout the administration who worry that their advice is being followed less and less.

Atlas declined several interview requests in recent days. After the publication of this story, he released a statement through the White House: “There is no policy of the President or this administration of achieving herd immunity. There never has been any such policy recommended to the President or to anyone else from me.”

White House communications director Alyssa Farah said there is no change in the White House’s approach toward combatting the pandemic.

“President Trump is fully focused on defeating the virus through therapeutics and ultimately a vaccine. There is no discussion about changing our strategy,” she said in a statement. “We have initiated an unprecedented effort under Operation Warp Speed to safely bring a vaccine to market in record time — ending this virus through medicine is our top focus.”

White House officials said Trump has asked questions about herd immunity but has not formally embraced the strategy. The president, however, has made public comments that advocate a similar approach.

“We are aggressively sheltering those at highest risk, especially the elderly, while allowing lower-risk Americans to safely return to work and to school, and we want to see so many of those great states be open,” he said during his address to the Republican National Convention Thursday night. “We want them to be open. They have to be open. They have to get back to work.”

Atlas has fashioned himself as the “anti-Dr. Fauci,” one senior administration official said, referring to Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-disease official, who has repeatedly been at odds with the president over his public comments about the threat posed by the virus. He has clashed with Fauci as well as Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, over the administration’s pandemic response.

Atlas has argued both internally and in public that an increased case count will move the nation more quickly to herd immunity and won’t lead to more deaths if the vulnerable are protected. But infectious-disease experts strongly dispute that, noting that more than 25,000 people younger than 65 have died of the virus in the United States. In addition, the United States has a higher number of vulnerable people of all ages because of high rates of heart and lung disease and obesity, and millions of vulnerable people live outside nursing homes — many in the same households with children, whom Atlas believes should return to school.

“When younger, healthier people get the disease, they don’t have a problem with the disease. I’m not sure why that’s so difficult for everyone to acknowledge,” Atlas said in an interview with Fox News’s Brian Kilmeade in July. “These people getting the infection is not really a problem and in fact, as we said months ago, when you isolate everyone, including all the healthy people, you’re prolonging the problem because you’re preventing population immunity. Low-risk groups getting the infection is not a problem.”

Atlas has said that lockdowns and social distancing restrictions during the pandemic have had a health cost as well, noting the problems associated with unemployment and people forgoing health care because they are afraid to visit a doctor.

“From personal communications with neurosurgery colleagues, about half of their patients have not appeared for treatment of disease which, left untreated, risks brain hemorrhage, paralysis or death,” he wrote in The Hill newspaper in May

The White House has left many of the day-to-day decisions regarding the pandemic to governors and local officials, many of whom have disregarded Trump’s advice, making it unclear how many states would embrace the Swedish model, or elements of it, if Trump begins to aggressively push for it to be adopted.

But two senior administration officials and one former official, as well as medical experts, noted that the administration is already taking steps to move the country in this direction.

The Department of Health and Human Services, for instance, invoked the Defense Production Act earlier this month to expedite the shipment of tests to nursing homes — but the administration has not significantly ramped up spending on testing elsewhere, despite persistent shortages. Trump and top White House aides, including Atlas, have also repeatedly pushed to reopen schools and lift lockdown orders, despite outbreaks in several schools that attempted to resume in-person classes.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also updated its testing guidance last week to say that those who are asymptomatic do not necessarily have to be tested. That prompted an outcry from medical groups, infectious-disease experts and local health officials, who said the change meant that asymptomatic people who had contact with an infected person would not be tested. The CDC estimates that about 40 percent of people infected with covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, are asymptomatic, and experts said much of the summer surge in infections was due to asymptomatic spread among young, healthy people.

Trump has previously floated “going herd” before being convinced by Fauci and others that it was not a good idea, according to one official.

The discussions come as at least 5.9 million infections have been reported and at least 179,000 have died from the virus this year and as public opinion polls show that Trump’s biggest liability with voters in his contest against Democratic nominee Joe Biden is his handling of the pandemic. The United States leads the world in coronavirus cases and deaths, with far more casualties and infections than any other developed nation.

The nations that have most successfully managed the coronavirus outbreak imposed stringent lockdown measures that a vast majority of the country abided by, quickly ramped up testing and contact tracing, and imposed mask mandates.

Atlas meets with Trump almost every day, far more than any other health official, and inside the White House is viewed as aligned with the president and White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows on how to handle the outbreak, according to three senior administration officials.

In meetings, Atlas has argued that metropolitan areas such as New York, Chicago and New Orleans have already reached herd immunity, according to two senior administration officials. But Birx and Fauci have disputed that, arguing that even cities that peaked to potential herd immunity levels experience similar levels of infection if they reopen too quickly, the officials said.

Trump asked Birx in a meeting last month whether New York and New Jersey had reached herd immunity, according to a senior administration official. Birx told the president there was not enough data to support that conclusion.

Atlas has supporters who argue that his presence in the White House is a good thing and that he brings a new perspective.

“Epidemiology is not the only discipline that matters for public policy here. That is a fundamentally wrong way to think about this whole situation,” said Avik Roy, president of the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, a think tank that researches market-based solutions to help low-income Americans. “You have to think about what are the costs of lockdowns, what are the trade-offs, and those are fundamentally subjective judgments policymakers have to make.”

It remains unclear how large a percentage of the population must become infected to achieve “herd immunity,” which is when enough people become immune to a disease that it slows its spread, even among those who have not been infected. That can occur either through mass vaccination efforts, or when enough people in the population become infected with coronavirus and develop antibodies that protect them against future infection.

Estimates have ranged from 20 percent to 70 percent for how much of a population would need to be infected. Soumya Swaminathan, the World Health Organization’s chief scientist, said given the transmissibility of the novel coronavirus, it is likely that about 65 to 70 percent of the population would need to become infected for there to be herd immunity.

With a population of 328 million in the United States, it may require 2.13 million deaths to reach a 65 percent threshold of herd immunity, assuming the virus has a 1 percent fatality rate, according to an analysis by The Washington Post.

It also remains unclear whether people who recover from covid-19 have long-term immunity to the virus or can become reinfected, and scientists are still learning who is vulnerable to the disease. From a practical standpoint, it is also nearly impossible to sufficiently isolate people at most risk of dying due to the virus from the younger, healthier population, according to public health experts.

Atlas has argued that the country should only be testing people with symptoms, despite the fact that asymptomatic carriers spread the virus. He has also repeatedly pushed to reopen schools and advocated for college sports to resume. Atlas has said, without evidence, that children do not spread the virus and do not have any real risk from covid-19, arguing that more children die of influenza — an argument he has made in television and radio interviews.

Atlas’s appointment comes after Trump earlier this summer encouraged his White House advisers to find a new doctor who would argue an alternative point of view from Birx and Fauci, whom the president has grown increasingly annoyed with for public comments that he believes contradict his own assertions that the threat of the virus is receding. Advisers sought a doctor with Ivy League or top university credentials who could make the case on television that the virus is a receding threat.

Atlas caught Trump’s attention with a spate of Fox News appearances in recent months, and the president has found a more simpatico figure in the Stanford doctor for his push to reopen the country so he can focus on his reelection. Atlas now often sits in the briefing room with Trump during his coronavirus news conferences, even as other doctors do not. He has given the president somewhat of a medical imprimatur for his statements and regularly helps draft the administration’s coronavirus talking points from his West Wing office as well as the slides that Trump often relies on for his argument of a diminishing threat.

Atlas has also said he is unsure “scientifically” whether masks make sense, despite broad consensus among scientists that they are effective. He has selectively presented research and findings that support his argument for herd immunity and his other ideas, two senior administration officials said.

Fauci and Birx have both said the virus is a threat in every part of the country. They have also put forward policy recommendations that the president views as too draconian, including mask mandates and partial lockdowns in areas experiencing surges of the virus.

Birx has been at odds with Atlas on several occasions, with one disagreement growing so heated at a coronavirus meeting earlier this month that other administration officials grew uncomfortable, according to a senior administration official.

One of the main points of tension between the two is over school reopenings. Atlas has pushed to reopen schools and Birx is more cautious.

“This is really unfortunate to have this fellow Scott Atlas, who was basically recruited to crowd out Tony Fauci and the voice of reason,” said Eric Topol, a cardiologist and head of the Scripps Research Translational Institute in San Diego. “Not only do we not embrace the science, but we repudiate the science by our president, and that has extended by bringing in another unreliable misinformation vector.”

This will not end well if people begin to follow what this guys says to do. Herd immunity is impossible now that we know after a few months people can catch it again. Even if we pretend like it is a possibility, what of the people who will die if they catch it? Herd immunity means nothing to them. The people we know who caught it a second time got hit harder the next time. Sooner or later their luck is going to run out.

Now that we know immunity to this thing is shorter than expected, my question is how does this change the effectiveness of the vaccines being made? Will we have to get them every 3 or 4 months now? So many question.

OT: Coronavirus updates/info

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