blkexec wrote:

[...] How many dunks will Thompson get b4 Thibs realizes we need a taller defender on him. [...]

Preach!

martin wrote:

VDesai wrote:

martin wrote:It's a weird extrapolation to me that 2 50 season wins means something has ceiling'ed out when both of those teams were completely different rosters and styles of play, give or take.

This is year 1 of this roster.

Those 2 things seem to fit in different spaces to me or whatnot.

A full season is a pretty long time. We don't have a bunch of 29 yr old guys not 23 year old guys. Where is the evidence that the ceiling has been getting raised here. If anything we've somehow been playing worse as the season has gone on. Injuries are a part of that, but something isn't moving in the right direction.

I'm not convinced the Coach is holding us back. I think it's a roster that doesn't quite work too. But my only point is there's evidence of good coaches getting replaced and the same rosters performing better right in front of us this year. Its going to come down to some hard decisions one way or the other.

OK. That's a general statement without much context. You can pretty much say that every year as an excuse to move on from something. Also has nothing to do with Knicks situation.

Identify the problem. Fix the problem.

1. Knicks didn't have much of a bench this year. Deuce, Mitch, Cam are the main guys off bench and 2 of them are easy injury candidates. Precious so bad at end of year he doesn't get minutes. Could have played rookies or Gleague guys.

2. Facilitators, dribble penetration guys. Brunson, Cam are scores when at their best. Josh got maximized this year but has a deep 3point flaw that's easily exposed cause of the No Dribblers thing. OG Mikal Deuce suck at both. Kolek only real potential solution? Do the Knicks really have 1 guy on their roster that can just beat the pants off of a good defender? Just relentlessly score on him or make an assist off of a downhill dribble outside of straight line Josh?

3. Interior defense. Mitch was hurt, Huk too. KAT ain't solving this and Precious/Sims did not fit the small ball C. Don't know how to solve this other than Mitch, Huk health.

What else?

I feel like the "Year 1" argument would have held more water if Thibs played out the year like it was a "Year 1." What I mean by that, is if we felt we weren't quite ready to contend, then why did we use the same starting lineup the whole year, especially given how over the course of the year, they kept getting statistically worse? We're at the point know where its progressed to where Detroit's SL is +30 vs our SL and the game are all being lost at the beginning of the first half/second half. If we were playing a long game, than early in the long game is when you experiment/try things/solve problems. Data collection. Instead we leaned into what he felt were our best 5 players and the longer we went with it, the worse the data got, but we kept at it. I always felt like he was forcing it together somewhat in a crash course to create more chemistry. But whereas we were 1st or 2nd in offensive rating over the first 30 games or so, we've just kept declining and declining...

SO what are our options to get better next year? We're at the 2nd apron. We're out of draft picks. We have a vet min MLE. Our most tradeable players are at of questionable/declining value (Robinson, Mcbride, Bridges?). So then if the core is the same, what can you change to make it better. That's why the Atkinson/Bickerstaff example keeps bubbling it up. Same core, marginal roster changes, a significant change in offensive philosophy....+17 wins and the most lopsided first round margin in history. Results came, even though Bickerstaff helped revive that franchise, had good results and deserved the benefit of the doubt. He's even moved on and showed his worth by reviving another franchise.

I don't have a better coach to trot out here. I am a huge fan of Thibs. I still believe he is championship quality. But based on how this has played out, something different is required and we're limited on options. There is a reasonable rationale and a relevant example to support it. It may not be the direction we go, but if it isn't, is there enough improvement within that is possible under the same philosophy? I'm much lower conviction about that now than I have been.

When it seems like 85% of our offense is focused around Brunson anyway - we probably could have gotten away Bridges or Hart in the 2nd unit as their positives and negatives would be better suited. And maybe I'm dead wrong and it wouldn't have worked...but it's not hard to see that trying to play a certain style with 3/5 of your starters complimenting that style would only yield mixed results.

I knew we didn't have the grit and talent level needed to beat Boston this year but getting outworked and outhustled on a Thibs team vs Tobias Harris, Cade, Schroeder and the rest of the young and hardworking Pistons is troubling. We will likely still win but only because of experience or the stars align for Brunson or KAT to shoot us out of reach. Been a Knicks fan since the last 70s but this team is nowhere near last year's team with regards to energry, grit and toughness. I'd rather have that with a lower ceiling and fight it out vs playing like creampuffs and hoping iso Brunson or iso KAT bests a 7th seeded Pistons.

jskinny35 wrote:I'll take a crack at it...
Hart off the bench is putting him in his ideal position (sans a few matchups where his lack of shooting doesn't hurt us). I understand it creates a starting lineup issue but Thibs could have experimented with pairing Brunson with Deuce (or Shamet when became available) and using Precious at the 4 to help with athleticism, hustle and toughness (next to KAT which he seems to lack). Deuce and Shamet are decent enough defenders when you weigh their attributes (can shoot outside) vs Hart. Thibs also could have looked at Bridges off the bench as he was up and down finding his own offense. He could have been a super sub and guaranteed our 2nd unit some points. Heck why didn't we bring up TJ Warren as he's slightly washed but a pretty good off the bench iso guy?

When it seems like 85% of our offense is focused around Brunson anyway - we probably could have gotten away Bridges or Hart in the 2nd unit as their positives and negatives would be better suited. And maybe I'm dead wrong and it wouldn't have worked...but it's not hard to see that trying to play a certain style with 3/5 of your starters complimenting that style would only yield mixed results.

I knew we didn't have the grit and talent level needed to beat Boston this year but getting outworked and outhustled on a Thibs team vs Tobias Harris, Cade, Schroeder and the rest of the young and hardworking Pistons is troubling. We will likely still win but only because of experience or the stars align for Brunson or KAT to shoot us out of reach. Been a Knicks fan since the last 70s but this team is nowhere near last year's team with regards to energry, grit and toughness. I'd rather have that with a lower ceiling and fight it out vs playing like creampuffs and hoping iso Brunson or iso KAT bests a 7th seeded Pistons.

Precious and Shamet were not options at the beginning of the year. This was also the time Josh was killing it and before defenses figured him out.

McBride got hurt in Nov and then starting again at beginning of January. All year he has not gotten his groove back. That’s reality, not theory.

You can switch Deuce for Josh but then you lose scoring, transition buckets, and rebounding, replacing it with PoA defense and spacing but you lose your 1 downhill glue guy who facilitates offense. This has not been a good year for Deuce. BTW, Deuce is a below average shooter overall. Average eFG% is 55%, I think. Deuce over his 4 years hast exceeded that mark once. Once. Defenses easily figure that out when you a starter, it’s the opposite problem as with Josh, just let Deuce take it to the rim and defend him at the 3point line, he can’t dribble drive.

I feel like if we are at the TJ Warren option level stuff, there may just not be too many realistic options.

I thought Precious would thrive this year. He was pathetic.