VDesai wrote:

martin wrote:

VDesai wrote:Ok so you realize what you're saying isn't as much as about Jalen as it really is about Thibs.

Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.

This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.

Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...

But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.

At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?

I don't quite understand this take. And I don't things are so black and white as you may have written.

Right now defenses take away KAT by putting a wing on him. If KAT is at the 3point line, they just crowd him.

It's on the offense to combat that. The defense has taken the KAT at the top of the key or anywhere near the 3point line. That's not wanting to do a 5-out things, it's a defense adjusting and the Knicks not figuring out a better way to beat them.

Jalen dominating the ball does the same thing as not finding KAT open when he is at the 3point line. And everyone else too.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.

My point is Thibs has not committed to the idea of losing rebounding for floor spacing. He'd rather get his 3's off the space created from the scramble of crashing boards, then the naturally created space from having 5 shooters. He has shown an aversion to these lineups all year. He's loathe to take Josh off the floor because he wants offensive boards.

Within the offense and the way its constructed, KAT needs to take a smaller defender inside. Katz has mentioned how as time goes on he is trying to do that less and less. He did it in game 1 and dominated, and then in Game 2 he rarely tried to establish position. We gave him the ball outside and he tried to take Harris off the dribble from behind the arc. From my vantage point, I saw KAT literally just standing around - no movement. No intention to establish position, also no aggression hitting the boards. To me the only way to combat it is to get him moving closer tot he basket.

I think I see what you are saying, but I am tripped up by the offensive rebounding at the expense of pure 5-out. I don't think that's Thibs thinking. Rebounding in general is a problem for the Knicks regardless of 5-out.

I think it just comes down to Josh versus Deuce? Is that fair? And what each brings to the different lineups, etc.

With Josh, you will never get the pure 5-out capabilities, because he refuses to shoot and defenses refuse to guard him. With Deuce, you lose rebounding. You lose a guy who is downhill. You lose transition baskets and transition push off of defensive rebounding, something the Knicks also lack because Jalen is so slow, Deuce is just not the decision maker in traffic or for himself.

I'd say Deuce is a much better on ball defender than Josh. Josh is more switchable up and down to PF's. Josh is obviously a better rebounder and assist guy, the triple doubles point to this.

For me, it's the tradeoff of Josh to Deuce (give or take) that Thibs is not comfortable with.

I'm back to my early year sentiments: Josh is better off bench. Right now, Knicks don't have or Thibs doesn't trust anyone else to fill that starting spot or those minutes.

Deuce's offensive numbers are not so good this year. It seems like he never got into a rhythm and that was caused by the injuries and time off.

martin wrote:

VDesai wrote:

martin wrote:

VDesai wrote:Ok so you realize what you're saying isn't as much as about Jalen as it really is about Thibs.

Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.

This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.

Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...

But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.

At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?

I don't quite understand this take. And I don't things are so black and white as you may have written.

Right now defenses take away KAT by putting a wing on him. If KAT is at the 3point line, they just crowd him.

It's on the offense to combat that. The defense has taken the KAT at the top of the key or anywhere near the 3point line. That's not wanting to do a 5-out things, it's a defense adjusting and the Knicks not figuring out a better way to beat them.

Jalen dominating the ball does the same thing as not finding KAT open when he is at the 3point line. And everyone else too.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.

My point is Thibs has not committed to the idea of losing rebounding for floor spacing. He'd rather get his 3's off the space created from the scramble of crashing boards, then the naturally created space from having 5 shooters. He has shown an aversion to these lineups all year. He's loathe to take Josh off the floor because he wants offensive boards.

Within the offense and the way its constructed, KAT needs to take a smaller defender inside. Katz has mentioned how as time goes on he is trying to do that less and less. He did it in game 1 and dominated, and then in Game 2 he rarely tried to establish position. We gave him the ball outside and he tried to take Harris off the dribble from behind the arc. From my vantage point, I saw KAT literally just standing around - no movement. No intention to establish position, also no aggression hitting the boards. To me the only way to combat it is to get him moving closer tot he basket.

I think I see what you are saying, but I am tripped up by the offensive rebounding at the expense of pure 5-out. I don't think that's Thibs thinking. Rebounding in general is a problem for the Knicks regardless of 5-out.

I think it just comes down to Josh versus Deuce? Is that fair? And what each brings to the different lineups, etc.

With Josh, you will never get the pure 5-out capabilities, because he refuses to shoot and defenses refuse to guard him. With Deuce, you lose rebounding. You lose a guy who is downhill. You lose transition baskets and transition push off of defensive rebounding, something the Knicks also lack because Jalen is so slow, Deuce is just not the decision maker in traffic or for himself.

I'd say Deuce is a much better on ball defender than Josh. Josh is more switchable up and down to PF's. Josh is obviously a better rebounder and assist guy, the triple doubles point to this.

For me, it's the tradeoff of Josh to Deuce (give or take) that Thibs is not comfortable with.

I'm back to my early year sentiments: Josh is better off bench. Right now, Knicks don't have or Thibs doesn't trust anyone else to fill that starting spot or those minutes.

Deuce's offensive numbers are not so good this year. It seems like he never got into a rhythm and that was caused by the injuries and time off.

We used to see KAT pass more to cutters. Now I feel like he's scoring 1-1 every time. Brunson is a tremendous ISO player but watching him score is also stagnating the offense. That's final 2 minute type BB, not the other 46 minutes.

The Pacers spent the whole series pressing Brunson 94 feet, and now the Pistons are doing the exact same thing. So why isn’t Bridges or Hart bringing it up to give him a break? And if there’s no spacing, why is Hart still out there instead of McBride?

Last year, Precious was stapled to the bench until Thibs finally threw him in—he responded with 12 boards. Why not force Detroit to adjust? Pull Duren off KAT, put Mitch in, and let him bully Harris in the paint every trip down.

And let’s be real—look at who we’re up against: Tobias Harris, Dennis Schroder, THJ, Malik Beasley? If we can’t get past this team, then let’s call it what it is: Leon blew the offseason, and we took a step (or two) back.

That said, this series is still there for the taking—but only if Thibs stops being stubborn and makes some actual adjustments. No reason we should be getting out-hustled by a scrappy team we should be steamrolling.

Mitch has been very valuable this series. We went big did well.

Loved the way Brunson kept his composure. Need heard anyone boo him like they did last night. The chants were funny.
I thought Timmy got poked a bit but not the way he reacted. Usually when that happens you need cold compress on the eye and when walk to the foul line look like you got poked. He was fine through out. It was a good play and helped his team. erase the first quarter deficit quickly.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:
I also picked Knicks in 5 but more as a chest pounding "lets go" moment.......at the same time am super impressed with Detroit and the job Bickerstaff has done. Cade chill and game is solid. Can't find a reason to hate him. Not the villainous type for sure. Schroder is annoying but in a Cam Payne kind of way so we have to accept it.
Read Beasly stiffed his agent and got sued this week. Kid for sure likes to bend the rules and must have some very high Attorney fees. His off court antics are noted by Nalod. His dunk on OG then pointed at him was stupid. I don't doubt OG intensity but why incentivize a guy like that? It was a great dunk no doubt.
I always liked Timmy Hardaway JR and found a way to disconnect him from his homophobic annoying father. Seeing last night next to what looked like a guy from the sopranos bought back all those Miami moments. Timmy Sr was a great villain back in his day.

Mitch has been very valuable this series. We went big did well.

Loved the way Brunson kept his composure. Need heard anyone boo him like they did last night. The chants were funny.
I thought Timmy got poked a bit but not the way he reacted. Usually when that happens you need cold compress on the eye and when walk to the foul line look like you got poked. He was fine through out. It was a good play and helped his team. erase the first quarter deficit quickly.

If I had to pick over, knicks in 6. But I picked 5 because I'm in a pool where whoever picks the exact games, wins more points. And I knew nobody (outside of some UK fans) would pick knicks in 5.

I've always like THJ.....Never liked his Dad for obvious reasons, but respected that crossover his dad had.

I love the dunk and pointing from Beasley. And he clearly doesn't care who he wakes up, thats how he gets his energy. Nothing wrong with that. Todays NBA is getting too sensitive for my liking. These guys are humans with human emotions, not robots. And if you played ball at a high level, especially growing up in NYC, you talk trash. After the game, you shake / huge and develop a long relationship of respect.

I like Cade....I just can't understand how to defeat him. But seems like what OG was doing works. Force him to hit open jumpers, but still just out to guard his jumper last second. Thats better than allowing him to create inside and open the game up for his bigs with lobs. So good job by wingstop.

Cardiac Knick afair as always. I guess if knicks going to win the next 2 games, it will be a grind just like game 3. Seems like a repeat from last year. Dump all our energy into round 1, with nothing left for round 2. Hope I'm wrong.

Don't get me wrong, there was no tech which I was fine with. These guys talk ****. Seems like OG is not that kind of guy and given he is a "Demon" why poke him? All good.

Series is a grind but remember we were up in the indy series without Jules and OG then Brunson got hurt and by then we were toast. The legend of DDV grew given we had nothing left and he put up 39 making an indelible impression that now leaves us sad. If we can walk away healthy, and Boston keeps getting banged up it could be an interesting series. First things first, knicks need to finish the Pistons.

I don't think you Defeat Cade, but hold him to 10-25 and 6 turnovers is effective.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:JB is like iverson
Delon Wright is Eric Snow
Mitch is Mutumbo (RIP)

JB needs a Delon type guard to run with. Now you have defense at the point of attach. Deuce could also fit that role but Delon is 6’6 and deuce is 6’1.

Towns needs Mitch. It will clog the paint sometimes on offense but look what you get on defense.

It’s not rocket science.

Would agree with you and have been trying to make the same point for some time.

My thing is, if JB needs someone and KAT needs someone to make up for their deficiencies, are they the right ones to lead the team? One making over $50M next year.

That’s the million dollar question Leon and Thibs needs to answer in the off season.

Like yesterday it took a lost. the media and fans for Towns to say F that I’m going hard in game 3. Why didn’t he go hard in game 2? JB brings it every game. So that’s one thing.

The other is harder to swallow. Both players have similar defensive gaps in their game on defense that every team will exploit. And having a defensive liability at center and PG can prevent a team from reaching certain goals and hard to cover up. Now Mitch was used well in game3 thanks to Thibs substitutions. I also like how our guard defense improved slightly when JB sat but offense suffered. Catch 22.

Let’s see if Thibs continues to utilize what works in game 1 and 3 and finish this series. Can KAT stop referring to JB and play his game? How will Thibs handle these switches with JB guarding Cade or Tobias Harris? They will definitely continue to seek out JB on defense. But at least Mitch was there at center to help with rim protection and rebounds.

This is a frustrating team from coach to players because they are so close to being an elite team. We have the offense and just need to cover up our defensive gaps. I know deuce offense has dropped but he’s still a solid defender. Even Shamett and Payne gave solid defensive energy while JB sat. Come on Thibs. Continue to play the bench like you did in game 1 & 3 and we win this series.

I picked Knicks in 5 before the series.

Agree with your take.
Been thinking about how KAT mentioned he is doing what the coaches tell him to do.
Have a feeling that Brunson’s dad plays a big part in making sure that JB is the focus of the team.
Not sure how that affects other players.
The way Donte reacted to him in pre season seemed like a lot of pent up emotion from perhaps everything being about JB.
Think KAT was feeling a bit of the same.
For me, JB is not there defensively and does not handle double teams well.
Feel KAT needs equal touches. Something that has yet to happen.
Both need to expand their games in order for them to be true leaders on a chip team.

Yep it’s a race between both growing as impactful players that equals a win. Because both can go off and we still lose games. It’s when their stats equals wins. And for JB he needs to understand he can turn up any time. But Mikal and OG has to get there’s. Towns has to demand his. And Thibs has to make sure everybody play nice. I’m hoping JBs Dad is like, pass the ball. Let the team catch a rhythm then take over in crunch time if needed.

fishmike wrote:Spoelstra has won 1 playoff game since he got lucky with that big playoff run riding all those guy who left the second they could. Players leaving, others regressing.

Herro is an inconsistent talent. They lose guys because they can't pay them. Guys like Ducan Robinson was a missed contract. An over pay. It happens. Bam has either regressed or they have chemistry issues. Jokic looks like a keeper at some point. They are missing the grit and clutch from most years.
Losing Strus was about not having money for him.
The Jimmy thing? He wanted his money and Jimmy did what Jimmy does. Riley is ran off Lebron also as he wants what he wants as did Lebron. Riley is a genius when it clicks, but in a long career he has had some dud's as well.
A long ass ass career at that!
They peaked with some nice playoff runs extracting more than most would have thought.
I enjoy their misses but can't relish too much as they figure out new ways to hate them.
Maybe time to move Bam? Herro? If so they might really do well elsewhere. Is Spo burnt out? It happens.
Pat Riley is 80. Looks damn good for 80 and who knows how much he has cut back if any. I don't follow their chain of command or if they have intellectualized a succession plan.

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:Spoelstra has won 1 playoff game since he got lucky with that big playoff run riding all those guy who left the second they could. Players leaving, others regressing.

Herro is an inconsistent talent. They lose guys because they can't pay them. Guys like Ducan Robinson was a missed contract. An over pay. It happens. Bam has either regressed or they have chemistry issues. Jokic looks like a keeper at some point. They are missing the grit and clutch from most years.
Losing Strus was about not having money for him.
The Jimmy thing? He wanted his money and Jimmy did what Jimmy does. Riley is ran off Lebron also as he wants what he wants as did Lebron. Riley is a genius when it clicks, but in a long career he has had some dud's as well.
A long ass ass career at that!
They peaked with some nice playoff runs extracting more than most would have thought.
I enjoy their misses but can't relish too much as they figure out new ways to hate them.
Maybe time to move Bam? Herro? If so they might really do well elsewhere. Is Spo burnt out? It happens.
Pat Riley is 80. Looks damn good for 80 and who knows how much he has cut back if any. I don't follow their chain of command or if they have intellectualized a succession plan.

Bam/Jaquez regressed. They could have paid guys and chose not to. They made poor moves and have not been well coached for a couple years.

I love the big leads they lost all year. God just imagine if that was Thibs coaching

Everybody was saying Spoelstra was the best coach ever. Now that the banana boat crew left, did Spoelstra forget how to coach?

You are only as good as the players on the team.

Spoelstra is a future HOF coach who took an 8 seed to the NBA Finals. Who was the last team to do that? The Knicks 25 years ago. So the jokes about what Spoelstra has done lately ring kind of hollow. WTF have we done since 99’?

You’re right that it takes good to great players to go places. Which because of FO moves, there hasn’t been enough quality players on the Heat to contend. Put Spoelstra on the Knicks, and I like our chances. Having said that I’m still on the fence about Thibs beyond this season. Want to see how things play out.

Panos wrote:Flippin' seriously guys!
Thibs HAS WON MORE PLAYOFF GAMES IN FIVE YEARS THAN LIKE THE PREVIOUS TWELVE COACHES COMBINED SPANNING 20 FREAKING YEARS!
Knicks are 3-1 in the first round of the playoffs. Can we BLOODY well give this thread a rest for a bit -- at least until they are, you know, losing?
JEEZUs.