Originally posted by rojasmas
he guy changed a team overnight and made them go from mediocre to elite. What more is there to understand? The record speaks for itself. They didn't have it before he was there. Case closed.

Are you reading anything anyone else in this thread is saying, or are you just regurgitating something Marc Stein said?

Posted by manilaballer:

Something tells me though, that if he did stay in Phoenix, they wouldn't be doing as well as they're doing now.

I didn't say they'd be doing as well as they're doing now... I just claim they'd still be doing very well. I'm not saying just anyone could duplicate Nash's effort. I'm just saying that there are plenty of guards who could replace Nash and still lead that team to a boatload of wins. Get me a point who can run a bit, play the pick and roll, and hit a jumper occassionally, and bam, that's already a 55+ win team. On the other hand, there are not a lot of players you could replace Amare or even Marion with and still have that team win 55+.

Now if you're saying that all the voters were mislead and actually all the other players (amare, marion, jj) simply got better (with or without Nash) then I really can't say anything to dispute that claim.

Well, I'm saying the voters were mislead by a lot of things. But I don't dispute that Nash makes his teammates 'better,' in the sense that he helps them get better shots. But clearly Amare and Johnson both would have gotten much better with or without Nash, as they were both rookies only 2 years ago. I don't think Marion has gotten significantly better since Nash has been there.

I'm on crack? Check out this week's SI. Sean Marion compares Marbs, Nash and JKIDD, having played with all 3. He says Nash and Kidd got him the easy shots and put the ball right where he wanted it. With Marbs he had to creat his own shots. So try to speak through your mouth and not your butt.

Posted by rojasmas:

Actually this is the exact quote: "The only adjustment I had to make came when I was playing with Steph. With him I had to create more shots on my own. With Steve and Jason, they create shots for you." The words of Shawn Marion say it all. Marbury is a shoot first guard who doesn't win. He cares more about his 20. Do you think Nash couldn't score 20 a game if he wanted to score 20? Wake up.

This has nothing to do with your assinine assertion that Nash creates double teams.

The rest of your post about single handed changing a team is totally false and had you read a few posts on here you would have realized that. I wont argue with Marion's assessment, thats how he feels and I wouldn't debate that Nash and Kidd are better creaters than him. I am debating your other 'points'. Lets talk about that.

Nash gets in the paint anytime he wants. Some big slug goes into the paint and converges on Nash. Stoudamire gets the ball going to the basket. It ain't a pick and roll dude, it's closer to a double team. Did you watch the game tonight? It only happened about twenty times.

Posted by rojasmas:

Furthermore, help me out. Why is my assertion that Nash singlehandedly changed the Suns wrong? Because some other posters said so? I didn't know the majority rules. But I am glad you set me straight. I thought a forum was about opinions, which means no one can be proven right or wrong. I guess you know better.

I'd say your opinion looks particularly good on the morning after Nash puts up 27 and 17 to beat Dallas without Joe Johnson.

Posted by rojasmas:

Nash gets in the paint anytime he wants. Some big slug goes into the paint and converges on Nash. Stoudamire gets the ball going to the basket. It ain't a pick and roll dude, it's closer to a double team. Did you watch the game tonight? It only happened about twenty times.

Even what you are suggesting above isn't double-teaming it is weak side help/rotating/'collapsing', where a defender has to leave his man and protect the rim because one of his teamates has been beaten off the dribble. This is what Steph makes defenses do all the time. Which is very different than when he was double-teamed by the Nets in last years playoff series. They sent 2 guards at him as soon as he crossed half-court to get the ball out of his hands. Thats a double team. When Duncan gets the ball in the post and 2 bigs come at him, those are double teams. What you are describing is definitely not a double team.

It is either drible penetration, which forces the defense to collapse/rotate, or it is an attempt to defend the pick and roll.

Think about it, you are definitely mistaken on this one because what you are describing is not a double team.

For the record, I would have given the MVP award to Shaq and had Nash second. But how anyone could have Nash worse than second is preposterous to me. Just my opinion. Remember also that Magic Johnson wasn't scoring 25 a game and still took over games and his teams won championships.

Not really obsessed but I had apoint to make and besides you are had just as many posts on the topic as well.

OK, Man, you are officially obssessed with this topic. That was a lot of info (or misinformation) that you typed up there lol.

To no avail. I think we nicely put your point that RACISM..IS...HARD...TO DETECT.. and therefore justification for racism charges are unecessary to rest despite your being so sure of it that you had to label me Mr.IQ and type in capital letters.

You have gone through my entire entree and talked about each and every point to no avail. Here's what I'll do, I listed your main points above and I'll just put them to rest.

I had read about the stats and forgotten about it. I'll concede that much.

1) Talk about putting words into a person's mouth. When did I say I was a judge of people? My point was you obviously do not know much about THIS topic. That's what I implied.

Yes, that's what happens. They are called witnesses. WHich means they saw or experienced the said behavior of the personin question. You try and settle any dispute between two people and if you weren't there you will need people who were. This is very fundamental.

2) Ask around to see if a person is a racist? lol Ok, I'll pretty much leave that alone.

See above. Though I really don't think they support Shaq as MVP either. He dropped in almost every stastical category from his career averages and didn't really distinguish himself from the other big men as much as he could.

3) You say "funny I havent seen any stats just opinions." ...... Then you asked do I "read poster's minds."....... You say you just go by "what's written".
Hmmmmm.....Ok you would be the one to MISS the fact that on page one of this post BRIGGS gave a link to John Stocktons old stats. He did this so that it could be compared to Steve Nash's to prove his point about Steve Nash not deserving an MVP nod. Want more stats? Ok, Here's another one you skipped over: Killa4luv posted on i beleive it was page one or two the stats of Iverson this season and said Iverson deserved consideration compared to Nash. Pay attention. Want more stats? Ok: Killa4luv also posted, on that same page might I add, Jason Kidd's stats when he had one of his stellar years. This was to be compared to Nash's. Jason Kidd never won the MVP award.

Well for someone who presumed to know what kind of person I was and how smart I was, I really don't think it' was unreasonable to come to the conclusion that you really did think you had some sort of ESP or other ability.

Before you insult me by asking me "do I read poster's minds" read the posts yourself. See, this is exactly why people end up being ignorant about topics. They don't take the time out to look at the actual facts which cause them to make false statements. Don't believe me though. I could be lying. Look on the first two pages or so. This way you can catch up to the topic at hand.

Just because you think he'll be ringless doesn't mena he will. Just like just because Shaq doesn't think he deserved the MVP doesn't mean he doesn't. The man is the most valuable player, doesn't mean he's the best. The Suns aren't winning with their D, but their O. Steve Nash is the reason their system which has neted them the best record in the NBA even works at all. See how much they sucked when he was out?

And by the way, I said "Nash 2005 = ringless once again" because in case you're unaware, he use to play for a team called the Dallas Mavs where he lead a team to alot of wins, no defense...which led to NO RINGS. It was a play on words to indicate that Steve Nash in 2005 (that means now) will once again be ringless. This notion is born out of my belief that Steve Nash is not an MVP type of player because he does not play D. Duncan and Shaq do.

Look at past MVP's:

Jordan
KG
Duncan
Iverson (top of the league in steals that year)
Shaq
Malone

Try really really really really hard to think of an MVP who did not play defense like Steve "one end of the court" Nash. And this time PLEASE read the stats. If not, ask me and I'll give you some more stats.
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Dude, I am done! Move on! I think Nash was top 2 for MVP and you don't. Bottom line. We agree to disagree. Who cares anymore about doubleteams and pick and rolls? I am going to another topic.

I thought white dudes are exempt from playing defense?

Anyway, see the game last nite?

Nash was killer, the dude set up Amare so all he has to do is dunk. The dude had 17 assists, 29 points! He took it in against Dirk and hooked over his teutonic buttocks!

THe dude was MVP like last nite, the ball movement thru him was amazing!

Holy F!!! He's got 46 now!!

This could be the best of all worlds - Nash puts on an incredible show and Dallas beats the Suns!!