Posted by bigpimpin:

Posted by diderotn:

I won't giveup on Mo, because I believe that he will be a huge asset for the Knicks. Talking or criticize that trade now is worthless, because he is already part of our family, therefore we have to embrace him. How do we know if he will not finally reach his overall potentials as a Knicks? Perhaps with the titulage of Agwire he can become the defensive monster that we wish for him to be...

diderotn,

after reading your post i don't quite know what to say.

i mean, you can basically insert any bum in the NBA in the place of Mo, but would that be logic?

methinksnot

yeah but you gotta give him credit for family values

Posted by fishmike:

is Mo Taylor bette then KT, Sweetney, Rose or JYD? I dont see anything Mo Taylor offers that one or two or four of those guys dont allready offer.

offensively, he is better than both Rose & JYD, & a match for both Sweetney & KT imho...defensively, he doesn't have the same instincts that KT, Rose or JYD do...i see Sweetney as comparable defensively at this point...he's not defensive wiz either by any stretch...Mo T is currently not in great shape either so i have to judge him w/a grain of salt...i've seen him play well back in his Clipper days & he's had big games against the Knicks w/KT guarding him as well in recent years...if he were to apply himself i can easily see him putting up 17 / 7 type #'s someplace, though his defense would never likely be anything to write home about...in terms of talent the Knicks clearly made out on the Vin & Moochie trade...it all remains to be seen what Isiah plans to do in the offseason...if he ends up trading KT, having Mo T on the roster will be a good insurance policy i would say, though his contract will probably never live up to his actual value...but hey, what else is new?

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by Nalod:

Taylor trade did not yield us any picks! We could have bought out mooch for very little money to open up a spot.

I like the Rose deal for the picks, and hes a good player.

I'm just curious because you and Fish seem to think the same way on the Taylor deal. You don't think that when Taylors contract in the final year will be much more valuable to Isiah then Vin and Moochies contract? I personally agree with Guns since the Taylor contract is larger that it will allow us to trade his expiring contract for a much better player. Am I that wrong in thinking that?

I think that's what Isiah's thinking was. I would have preferred to see if we could get a better deal first for Vin and Moochie next year and if we couldn't, then using that reasoning above, I would have done the Taylor deal.

That is what he said on MSG, he said that in 2 years he will have alot more options with a number of huge salaries coming off the books. I know he was referring to Taylor's contract, but of course that is the same time Houston's come off, too. Pretty sweet, the Knicks will have some nice trade assets for two years.

lol... so true. I like KT and I think we underrate his value. KT has gotten better every year for us. I do think we need to move in a different direction but KT is good player. We will see... we do have some big wide bodies to throw at teams. We arent tall but several guys do play bigger than they are. IF we could get one impact skill player on the wing we could be in decent shape.

I know its a work in progress and that we got better talent back in Taylor, but not talented enough in my opinion.

People tend to forget that in two years that there will be crazy talents available as FAs. Lebron, Carmelo, Millicic, and even Flash will all be available in the year that These four names will out there. What a good year that will be? We missed out on Kobe, Tmack, Shaq, and others. Isiah will not allow himself to be in the same position again. Lebron or Carmelo, Flash and Millicic also will be big time stars by then...When will KG's contract expire?????? I am pretty sure by next year, he will demand for a trade, because Minesota will be pretty much a lotery team.....

I have NEVER NEVER EVER said the Knicks should be concerned about the cap. In fact I have argued (with Solace among others) that cap space never made sense as a goal for the Knicks.

Ive been talking about flexibility. Vin and Moochie gave you some and game you some now. Mo Taylor takes it away.

I thought I gave pretty fair example but I will again. Nene, Wilcox, Gooden, Pietrus are all players that could have helped us in different ways. Think about how good we could be adding Wilcox or Nene at center. Those players make $2-$3mm as most do in their rookie deals. All our guys make $6-$9 now. Moochie and Vin made $3-$4mm. You could have easily offered a pick, cash and one of those guys for some of the ones I have mentioned. Those options are gone now. Instead you switch your thinking to "what terrible contracts can I take back that would entice those teams to trade with me."

A lot of teams will have major $$$ decisions to make. Carmello and Nene, Joe Johnson and Amare... many teams simply wont be able to afford to pay all their players in rookie deals, so offering cash, an expiring deal and a pick is solid option at times. Now if your one of those teams wouldnt you just pay your own guy rather than take on 2-3 years of a guy like KT or Mo Taylor?

Posted by fishmike:

I have NEVER NEVER EVER said the Knicks should be concerned about the cap. In fact I have argued (with Solace among others) that cap space never made sense as a goal for the Knicks.

Ive been talking about flexibility. Vin and Moochie gave you some and game you some now. Mo Taylor takes it away.

I thought I gave pretty fair example but I will again. Nene, Wilcox, Gooden, Pietrus are all players that could have helped us in different ways. Think about how good we could be adding Wilcox or Nene at center. Those players make $2-$3mm as most do in their rookie deals. All our guys make $6-$9 now. Moochie and Vin made $3-$4mm. You could have easily offered a pick, cash and one of those guys for some of the ones I have mentioned. Those options are gone now. Instead you switch your thinking to "what terrible contracts can I take back that would entice those teams to trade with me."

A lot of teams will have major $$$ decisions to make. Carmello and Nene, Joe Johnson and Amare... many teams simply wont be able to afford to pay all their players in rookie deals, so offering cash, an expiring deal and a pick is solid option at times. Now if your one of those teams wouldnt you just pay your own guy rather than take on 2-3 years of a guy like KT or Mo Taylor?

Fish, you probably don't remember this, but when Isiah's first move was to trade for Moochie Norris, which added a year on our payroll, I was upset and so were most posters at MSG. At the time, I wanted to get under the cap. You said to relax and that you're sure Isiah has a plan. Maybe he has a good plan now too and it just isn't readily apparent to some people on this message board. Maybe he has a good plan and it's just NOT the same plan as yours.

It didnt. Moochie's last year is a team option. He and Spoon have the same length of years... look it up. I liked the deal because worse case was Moochie's smaller contract would be easier to move that Spoon's fatter one.

That trade got Spoon off the roster and didnt add more years. This one did and it will hurt us if we try to trade for young players because we have no small contracts to match. Forget about Wilcox or Nene or JR Smith or whoever.

Fish, you probably don't remember this, but when Isiah's first move was to trade for Moochie Norris, which added a year on our payroll, I was upset and so were most posters at MSG. At the time, I wanted to get under the cap. You said to relax and that you're sure Isiah has a plan. Maybe he has a good plan now too and it just isn't readily apparent to some people on this message board. Maybe he has a good plan and it's just NOT the same plan as yours.

The Norris moves was solid from the door. We traded Spoon's contract for Norris which saved us money and it made room for Sweetney to get burn. You could see the reasoning right away for the move.

Also. Lebron James, Wade, Carmello, Stoud, Yao won't even smell free agency. They will all be resigned to huge extensions by there teams. And if not they will be traded in sign and trades. No team will let them walk for nothing in return. Assets for sign and trades would be a more realistic option for getting any of these guys than cap space even though its unrealistic to think that any of these guys would walk from there teams.

Posted by fishmike:

It didnt. Moochie's last year is a team option. He and Spoon have the same length of years... look it up. I liked the deal because worse case was Moochie's smaller contract would be easier to move that Spoon's fatter one.

That trade got Spoon off the roster and didnt add more years. This one did and it will hurt us if we try to trade for young players because we have no small contracts to match. Forget about Wilcox or Nene or JR Smith or whoever.

At the time, though, everyone (including you) thought Moochie's deal was a year longer. It wasn't until I contacted a Houston reporter to find out that there was a team option on the final year that we knew his contract was a year longer. Yet, you still didn't mind the deal.

Posted by fishmike:

stars never go in sign and trades. Kmart's happened when Denver produced an offer sheet and NJ was losing him for nothing. So their agent go them together for a S&T. NJ got picks, KMart got the extra year and Denver overpaid for a PF that isnt the same with Dre Miller as he was with a healthy Kidd.

Your right to an extent. I was wrong because you do need the cap space. But Mcgrady & Hill both went in sign and trades to Orlando. Shaq was S&T to LA. The teams had the money to give him. But they also had to give up picks or prospects to the team the superstars are leaving.