BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:This is what had to happen to make a title run. OKC has this kind of depth. Having the continuity of quality players on the floor while starters rest is key.

There was zero chance we'd ever contend under Thibs. I mean 0%, not 5%, but 0%. His rep was built by grinding his core, like he did with DRose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, but in reality the Bulls had only one run to the ECF and flamed out there like he did here, because he burns guys out and doesn't have depth ready to step in during the playoffs. Thibs has got to be most overrated coach I've seen as a Knicks fan. His defensive rep was built first off of Garnett & Co. and then Noah & crew. And his offensive playbook was non-existent. Brunson balled out because he's Brunson, not because of any switch Thibs flipped. All Brunson did was bail out Thibs from having to come up with any in-game adjustments at all. Guy was a cheerleader, but not much of a coach by the time he got canned.

Rose did the right thing even if he had to go against their past relationship to play the Godfather and cut out Thibs like a bad dream. It was the only choice to be made. Brown is an actual coach who addresses players with real-time adjustments and who actually uses his staff to have a game plan. No coach is perfect and there will be a day I second guess Brown because that's what fans do, but so far Brown is a breath of fresh air. Thibs was truly awful. While someone may disagree, I strongly suggest our record the past two seasons with Thibs was a product of our talent level, not his coaching.

we were 1 win away (which we completely blew and had won) from the NBA finals with a roster that was brand new and had zero depth under Thibs. And we took down the defending favored champs. That wasn't contending?

the year before, imagine if we had Ihart, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson healthy, that team wouldn't have contended?

I said our record was a reflection of our talent, not our coaching.

A core of Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart should get you to the ECF every year that core is together regardless of who is coaching.

Thibs was such a bungler that when he actually made the rare in-game adjustment some fans would praise him to the moon and say "See, Thibs can make in-game adjustments"

That's how pathetic Thibs was.

Thibs had no bag. He was just lucky that we have the most clutch player in the NBA to hand the ball to at crunchtime. Brunson won the Pistons series by being clutch. Thibs had nothing to do with it. He's just a bystander yelling Go! Whenever the huddle was miked up Thibs could be heard offering no strategy, no adjustments and rarely writing up a play to run out of a time-out. He was merely a figurehead coasting on his reputation, but he was not actively coaching anything during the actual games.

Brunson liked Thibs because (a) he grew up with him and (b) Thibs didn't micro-manage Brunson which was to Brunson's advantage coming from Dallas trying to prove he was that guy. Thibs didn't coach up Brunson. Brunson was leveling himself up all along from childhood to now. Thibs only contribution to Brunson's success was giving him the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

If you'll recall, Thibs did exactly the same thing with his previous # 1 option, Julius Randle. It didn't matter that Randle went from being a plus defender in the bubble season to a turnstile by those playoffs and all years after that. Thibs did absolutely nothing to adjust Randle's conduct on and off the court.

Thibs was nothing more than a ride his # 1 option guy going all the way back to DRose. Thibs has no bag himself.

Don’t agree with ant of your above.

Every year Thibs and Knicks well exceeded their early season records.

Before Brunson came to the Knicks, he was a high level backup PG. Similar story either Randle, iHart, Mitch, Josh.

Individuals got better, team got better.

I will never expect many Knicks fan to agree with me which if OK.

Whatever hands-on coaching Thibs may have done earlier in his career was nowhere to be seen IMO.

If a coach has zero to contribute during a game we are all watching ourselves then there is no way they have much to say to the players that is educational and leads to improvements off the court.

Can you honestly tell me you witnessed Thibs make actual in-game adjustments more than 10% of the time? It was very rare

Knicks got better every year and you wanna convince me that a head coach doesn’t make actual in game adjustments more than 10% of the time and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know how to watch the game closely enough at an nba level.

Maybe we should ask Joe Mazulla why he couldn’t adjust to the Knicks series last year with more talent.

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:This is what had to happen to make a title run. OKC has this kind of depth. Having the continuity of quality players on the floor while starters rest is key.

There was zero chance we'd ever contend under Thibs. I mean 0%, not 5%, but 0%. His rep was built by grinding his core, like he did with DRose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, but in reality the Bulls had only one run to the ECF and flamed out there like he did here, because he burns guys out and doesn't have depth ready to step in during the playoffs. Thibs has got to be most overrated coach I've seen as a Knicks fan. His defensive rep was built first off of Garnett & Co. and then Noah & crew. And his offensive playbook was non-existent. Brunson balled out because he's Brunson, not because of any switch Thibs flipped. All Brunson did was bail out Thibs from having to come up with any in-game adjustments at all. Guy was a cheerleader, but not much of a coach by the time he got canned.

Rose did the right thing even if he had to go against their past relationship to play the Godfather and cut out Thibs like a bad dream. It was the only choice to be made. Brown is an actual coach who addresses players with real-time adjustments and who actually uses his staff to have a game plan. No coach is perfect and there will be a day I second guess Brown because that's what fans do, but so far Brown is a breath of fresh air. Thibs was truly awful. While someone may disagree, I strongly suggest our record the past two seasons with Thibs was a product of our talent level, not his coaching.

we were 1 win away (which we completely blew and had won) from the NBA finals with a roster that was brand new and had zero depth under Thibs. And we took down the defending favored champs. That wasn't contending?

the year before, imagine if we had Ihart, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson healthy, that team wouldn't have contended?

I said our record was a reflection of our talent, not our coaching.

A core of Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart should get you to the ECF every year that core is together regardless of who is coaching.

Thibs was such a bungler that when he actually made the rare in-game adjustment some fans would praise him to the moon and say "See, Thibs can make in-game adjustments"

That's how pathetic Thibs was.

Thibs had no bag. He was just lucky that we have the most clutch player in the NBA to hand the ball to at crunchtime. Brunson won the Pistons series by being clutch. Thibs had nothing to do with it. He's just a bystander yelling Go! Whenever the huddle was miked up Thibs could be heard offering no strategy, no adjustments and rarely writing up a play to run out of a time-out. He was merely a figurehead coasting on his reputation, but he was not actively coaching anything during the actual games.

Brunson liked Thibs because (a) he grew up with him and (b) Thibs didn't micro-manage Brunson which was to Brunson's advantage coming from Dallas trying to prove he was that guy. Thibs didn't coach up Brunson. Brunson was leveling himself up all along from childhood to now. Thibs only contribution to Brunson's success was giving him the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

If you'll recall, Thibs did exactly the same thing with his previous # 1 option, Julius Randle. It didn't matter that Randle went from being a plus defender in the bubble season to a turnstile by those playoffs and all years after that. Thibs did absolutely nothing to adjust Randle's conduct on and off the court.

Thibs was nothing more than a ride his # 1 option guy going all the way back to DRose. Thibs has no bag himself.

Don’t agree with ant of your above.

Every year Thibs and Knicks well exceeded their early season records.

Before Brunson came to the Knicks, he was a high level backup PG. Similar story either Randle, iHart, Mitch, Josh.

Individuals got better, team got better.

I will never expect many Knicks fan to agree with me which if OK.

Whatever hands-on coaching Thibs may have done earlier in his career was nowhere to be seen IMO.

If a coach has zero to contribute during a game we are all watching ourselves then there is no way they have much to say to the players that is educational and leads to improvements off the court.

Can you honestly tell me you witnessed Thibs make actual in-game adjustments more than 10% of the time? It was very rare

Knicks got better every year and you wanna convince me that a head coach doesn’t make actual in game adjustments more than 10% of the time and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know how to watch the game closely enough at an nba level.

Maybe we should ask Joe Mazulla why he couldn’t adjust to the Knicks series last year with more talent.

He's a good coach to push players into working hard, so he is a guy can get a middling roster to overachieve through sheer effort.

But our rise in the standings was due to our roster vastly improving over the last two years, not due to Thibs.

NBA players succeed mostly due to their own habits and dedication. The coach is not the primary ingredient to having a long and successful career and that includes great coaches like Spo or Pops. So that is not a knock against Thibs. A good coach can help a career and a bad coach can sabotage career, but mostly it is the player themselves who determine who makes it in the league and who plays abroad.

What good coaches do is they build a system around the players they have and not impose the same system regardless of whom they have. Thibs did the latter and it lacked creativity which is why Brunson was a gift to him, because of his ability to create in iso. But most of his tenure Thibs ran iso heavy offenses that lacked imagination. Brown has come in and done the opposite and he is building systems around the player strengths, not imposing a cookie cutter approach. ISO is now mixed in with better movement on and off the ball.

Saying you can't argue with success doesn't mean much to me when you have a starting unit you can arguably say is at least top 3 talent-wise in the NBA. They are going to succeed to some extent without any coaching at all, but no talent level is enough with coaching that does not adjust and Thibs had very little to offer there.

Every year Thibs teams burn out in the playoffs. It is a pattern. Good coaches plan for the playoffs early in the season and make sure they have enough soldiers ready to go, something Thibs failed at miserably.

He's not a championship coach, just an overrated journeyman coach who lucked into some MVP talents along the way.

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:This is what had to happen to make a title run. OKC has this kind of depth. Having the continuity of quality players on the floor while starters rest is key.

There was zero chance we'd ever contend under Thibs. I mean 0%, not 5%, but 0%. His rep was built by grinding his core, like he did with DRose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, but in reality the Bulls had only one run to the ECF and flamed out there like he did here, because he burns guys out and doesn't have depth ready to step in during the playoffs. Thibs has got to be most overrated coach I've seen as a Knicks fan. His defensive rep was built first off of Garnett & Co. and then Noah & crew. And his offensive playbook was non-existent. Brunson balled out because he's Brunson, not because of any switch Thibs flipped. All Brunson did was bail out Thibs from having to come up with any in-game adjustments at all. Guy was a cheerleader, but not much of a coach by the time he got canned.

Rose did the right thing even if he had to go against their past relationship to play the Godfather and cut out Thibs like a bad dream. It was the only choice to be made. Brown is an actual coach who addresses players with real-time adjustments and who actually uses his staff to have a game plan. No coach is perfect and there will be a day I second guess Brown because that's what fans do, but so far Brown is a breath of fresh air. Thibs was truly awful. While someone may disagree, I strongly suggest our record the past two seasons with Thibs was a product of our talent level, not his coaching.

we were 1 win away (which we completely blew and had won) from the NBA finals with a roster that was brand new and had zero depth under Thibs. And we took down the defending favored champs. That wasn't contending?

the year before, imagine if we had Ihart, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson healthy, that team wouldn't have contended?

I said our record was a reflection of our talent, not our coaching.

A core of Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart should get you to the ECF every year that core is together regardless of who is coaching.

Thibs was such a bungler that when he actually made the rare in-game adjustment some fans would praise him to the moon and say "See, Thibs can make in-game adjustments"

That's how pathetic Thibs was.

Thibs had no bag. He was just lucky that we have the most clutch player in the NBA to hand the ball to at crunchtime. Brunson won the Pistons series by being clutch. Thibs had nothing to do with it. He's just a bystander yelling Go! Whenever the huddle was miked up Thibs could be heard offering no strategy, no adjustments and rarely writing up a play to run out of a time-out. He was merely a figurehead coasting on his reputation, but he was not actively coaching anything during the actual games.

Brunson liked Thibs because (a) he grew up with him and (b) Thibs didn't micro-manage Brunson which was to Brunson's advantage coming from Dallas trying to prove he was that guy. Thibs didn't coach up Brunson. Brunson was leveling himself up all along from childhood to now. Thibs only contribution to Brunson's success was giving him the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

If you'll recall, Thibs did exactly the same thing with his previous # 1 option, Julius Randle. It didn't matter that Randle went from being a plus defender in the bubble season to a turnstile by those playoffs and all years after that. Thibs did absolutely nothing to adjust Randle's conduct on and off the court.

Thibs was nothing more than a ride his # 1 option guy going all the way back to DRose. Thibs has no bag himself.

Don’t agree with ant of your above.

Every year Thibs and Knicks well exceeded their early season records.

Before Brunson came to the Knicks, he was a high level backup PG. Similar story either Randle, iHart, Mitch, Josh.

Individuals got better, team got better.

I will never expect many Knicks fan to agree with me which if OK.

Whatever hands-on coaching Thibs may have done earlier in his career was nowhere to be seen IMO.

If a coach has zero to contribute during a game we are all watching ourselves then there is no way they have much to say to the players that is educational and leads to improvements off the court.

Can you honestly tell me you witnessed Thibs make actual in-game adjustments more than 10% of the time? It was very rare

Knicks got better every year and you wanna convince me that a head coach doesn’t make actual in game adjustments more than 10% of the time and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know how to watch the game closely enough at an nba level.

Maybe we should ask Joe Mazulla why he couldn’t adjust to the Knicks series last year with more talent.

He's a good coach to push players into working hard, so he is a guy can get a middling roster to overachieve through sheer effort.

But our rise in the standings was due to our roster vastly improving over the last two years, not due to Thibs.

NBA players succeed mostly due to their own habits and dedication. The coach is not the primary ingredient to having a long and successful career and that includes great coaches like Spo or Pops. So that is not a knock against Thibs. A good coach can help a career and a bad coach can sabotage career, but mostly it is the player themselves who determine who makes it in the league and who plays abroad.

What good coaches do is they build a system around the players they have and not impose the same system regardless of whom they have. Thibs did the latter and it lacked creativity which is why Brunson was a gift to him, because of his ability to create in iso. But most of his tenure Thibs ran iso heavy offenses that lacked imagination. Brown has come in and done the opposite and he is building systems around the player strengths, not imposing a cookie cutter approach. ISO is now mixed in with better movement on and off the ball.

Saying you can't argue with success doesn't mean much to me when you have a starting unit you can arguably say is at least top 3 talent-wise in the NBA. They are going to succeed to some extent without any coaching at all, but no talent level is enough with coaching that does not adjust and Thibs had very little to offer there.

Every year Thibs teams burn out in the playoffs. It is a pattern. Good coaches plan for the playoffs early in the season and make sure they have enough soldiers ready to go, something Thibs failed at miserably.

He's not a championship coach, just an overrated journeyman coach who lucked into some MVP talents along the way.

The first bolded sentence: There is zero way for you to substantiate this. Zero. It’s just you making something up.

Coaches build what they have with their players. Knicks had been a heavy rebounding and defensive team while also being a top offensive team in other years.

No, every year the Knicks team didn’t burn out. They had key injuries. You blew past that. Last year they did burn out cause of multiple injuries and a training camp trade that decimated their bench.

The Cavs coach should just adjust. Steve Kerr should just adjust. Somehow they forgot how to.

You can say that Brunson was a gift or you can say that Thibs put him in a position to ultra succeed at levels no one thought possible and that every other Dallas coach didn’t adjust in a way that made him MVP level caliber. Which is it?

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:This is what had to happen to make a title run. OKC has this kind of depth. Having the continuity of quality players on the floor while starters rest is key.

There was zero chance we'd ever contend under Thibs. I mean 0%, not 5%, but 0%. His rep was built by grinding his core, like he did with DRose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, but in reality the Bulls had only one run to the ECF and flamed out there like he did here, because he burns guys out and doesn't have depth ready to step in during the playoffs. Thibs has got to be most overrated coach I've seen as a Knicks fan. His defensive rep was built first off of Garnett & Co. and then Noah & crew. And his offensive playbook was non-existent. Brunson balled out because he's Brunson, not because of any switch Thibs flipped. All Brunson did was bail out Thibs from having to come up with any in-game adjustments at all. Guy was a cheerleader, but not much of a coach by the time he got canned.

Rose did the right thing even if he had to go against their past relationship to play the Godfather and cut out Thibs like a bad dream. It was the only choice to be made. Brown is an actual coach who addresses players with real-time adjustments and who actually uses his staff to have a game plan. No coach is perfect and there will be a day I second guess Brown because that's what fans do, but so far Brown is a breath of fresh air. Thibs was truly awful. While someone may disagree, I strongly suggest our record the past two seasons with Thibs was a product of our talent level, not his coaching.

we were 1 win away (which we completely blew and had won) from the NBA finals with a roster that was brand new and had zero depth under Thibs. And we took down the defending favored champs. That wasn't contending?

the year before, imagine if we had Ihart, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson healthy, that team wouldn't have contended?

I said our record was a reflection of our talent, not our coaching.

A core of Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart should get you to the ECF every year that core is together regardless of who is coaching.

Thibs was such a bungler that when he actually made the rare in-game adjustment some fans would praise him to the moon and say "See, Thibs can make in-game adjustments"

That's how pathetic Thibs was.

Thibs had no bag. He was just lucky that we have the most clutch player in the NBA to hand the ball to at crunchtime. Brunson won the Pistons series by being clutch. Thibs had nothing to do with it. He's just a bystander yelling Go! Whenever the huddle was miked up Thibs could be heard offering no strategy, no adjustments and rarely writing up a play to run out of a time-out. He was merely a figurehead coasting on his reputation, but he was not actively coaching anything during the actual games.

Brunson liked Thibs because (a) he grew up with him and (b) Thibs didn't micro-manage Brunson which was to Brunson's advantage coming from Dallas trying to prove he was that guy. Thibs didn't coach up Brunson. Brunson was leveling himself up all along from childhood to now. Thibs only contribution to Brunson's success was giving him the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

If you'll recall, Thibs did exactly the same thing with his previous # 1 option, Julius Randle. It didn't matter that Randle went from being a plus defender in the bubble season to a turnstile by those playoffs and all years after that. Thibs did absolutely nothing to adjust Randle's conduct on and off the court.

Thibs was nothing more than a ride his # 1 option guy going all the way back to DRose. Thibs has no bag himself.

Don’t agree with ant of your above.

Every year Thibs and Knicks well exceeded their early season records.

Before Brunson came to the Knicks, he was a high level backup PG. Similar story either Randle, iHart, Mitch, Josh.

Individuals got better, team got better.

I will never expect many Knicks fan to agree with me which if OK.

Whatever hands-on coaching Thibs may have done earlier in his career was nowhere to be seen IMO.

If a coach has zero to contribute during a game we are all watching ourselves then there is no way they have much to say to the players that is educational and leads to improvements off the court.

Can you honestly tell me you witnessed Thibs make actual in-game adjustments more than 10% of the time? It was very rare

Knicks got better every year and you wanna convince me that a head coach doesn’t make actual in game adjustments more than 10% of the time and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know how to watch the game closely enough at an nba level.

Maybe we should ask Joe Mazulla why he couldn’t adjust to the Knicks series last year with more talent.

He's a good coach to push players into working hard, so he is a guy can get a middling roster to overachieve through sheer effort.

But our rise in the standings was due to our roster vastly improving over the last two years, not due to Thibs.

NBA players succeed mostly due to their own habits and dedication. The coach is not the primary ingredient to having a long and successful career and that includes great coaches like Spo or Pops. So that is not a knock against Thibs. A good coach can help a career and a bad coach can sabotage career, but mostly it is the player themselves who determine who makes it in the league and who plays abroad.

What good coaches do is they build a system around the players they have and not impose the same system regardless of whom they have. Thibs did the latter and it lacked creativity which is why Brunson was a gift to him, because of his ability to create in iso. But most of his tenure Thibs ran iso heavy offenses that lacked imagination. Brown has come in and done the opposite and he is building systems around the player strengths, not imposing a cookie cutter approach. ISO is now mixed in with better movement on and off the ball.

Saying you can't argue with success doesn't mean much to me when you have a starting unit you can arguably say is at least top 3 talent-wise in the NBA. They are going to succeed to some extent without any coaching at all, but no talent level is enough with coaching that does not adjust and Thibs had very little to offer there.

Every year Thibs teams burn out in the playoffs. It is a pattern. Good coaches plan for the playoffs early in the season and make sure they have enough soldiers ready to go, something Thibs failed at miserably.

He's not a championship coach, just an overrated journeyman coach who lucked into some MVP talents along the way.

The first bolded sentence: There is zero way for you to substantiate this. Zero. It’s just you making something up.

Coaches build what they have with their players. Knicks had been a heavy rebounding and defensive team while also being a top offensive team in other years.

No, every year the Knicks team didn’t burn out. They had key injuries. You blew past that. Last year they did burn out cause of multiple injuries and a training camp trade that decimated their bench.

The Cavs coach should just adjust. Steve Kerr should just adjust. Somehow they forgot how to.

You can say that Brunson was a gift or you can say that Thibs put him in a position to ultra succeed at levels no one thought possible and that every other Dallas coach didn’t adjust in a way that made him MVP level caliber. Which is it?

With these being the typical starting lineup by the previous 3 seasons, I'd say the stats quite well substantiate we've had a major talent upgrade over the course of the previous two seasons.

Saying I have zero proof that an increase in talent correlates with a better record is probably where this should end since you clearly hold Thibs in quite high esteem as a coach and I do not.

2022-2023
Fournier
Burks
RJ
Randle
Mitch

2023-2024
Brunson
Grimes
Mitch
Randle
RJ

2024-2025
Brunson
Hart
KAT
Bridges
OG

I wont dispute that there was an increase in talent but that’s not really what you are saying. You are saying that you can tell how much a coach adds on top of the talent add and it’s not much or coach didn’t add anything. That’s hogwash.

Look at the Cavs. It’s a good example.

Specifically with last year, how much time does a coaching staff need to plan out a training camp and an offense and defense for a new season? What’s your experience and take on that? Days? Weeks? Months? What’s the norm? And should talent alone just make them a top offensive team or is there more to it?

And if there isn’t more to it, why don’t Cavs just have a better team?

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:This is what had to happen to make a title run. OKC has this kind of depth. Having the continuity of quality players on the floor while starters rest is key.

There was zero chance we'd ever contend under Thibs. I mean 0%, not 5%, but 0%. His rep was built by grinding his core, like he did with DRose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, but in reality the Bulls had only one run to the ECF and flamed out there like he did here, because he burns guys out and doesn't have depth ready to step in during the playoffs. Thibs has got to be most overrated coach I've seen as a Knicks fan. His defensive rep was built first off of Garnett & Co. and then Noah & crew. And his offensive playbook was non-existent. Brunson balled out because he's Brunson, not because of any switch Thibs flipped. All Brunson did was bail out Thibs from having to come up with any in-game adjustments at all. Guy was a cheerleader, but not much of a coach by the time he got canned.

Rose did the right thing even if he had to go against their past relationship to play the Godfather and cut out Thibs like a bad dream. It was the only choice to be made. Brown is an actual coach who addresses players with real-time adjustments and who actually uses his staff to have a game plan. No coach is perfect and there will be a day I second guess Brown because that's what fans do, but so far Brown is a breath of fresh air. Thibs was truly awful. While someone may disagree, I strongly suggest our record the past two seasons with Thibs was a product of our talent level, not his coaching.

we were 1 win away (which we completely blew and had won) from the NBA finals with a roster that was brand new and had zero depth under Thibs. And we took down the defending favored champs. That wasn't contending?

the year before, imagine if we had Ihart, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson healthy, that team wouldn't have contended?

I said our record was a reflection of our talent, not our coaching.

A core of Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart should get you to the ECF every year that core is together regardless of who is coaching.

Thibs was such a bungler that when he actually made the rare in-game adjustment some fans would praise him to the moon and say "See, Thibs can make in-game adjustments"

That's how pathetic Thibs was.

Thibs had no bag. He was just lucky that we have the most clutch player in the NBA to hand the ball to at crunchtime. Brunson won the Pistons series by being clutch. Thibs had nothing to do with it. He's just a bystander yelling Go! Whenever the huddle was miked up Thibs could be heard offering no strategy, no adjustments and rarely writing up a play to run out of a time-out. He was merely a figurehead coasting on his reputation, but he was not actively coaching anything during the actual games.

Brunson liked Thibs because (a) he grew up with him and (b) Thibs didn't micro-manage Brunson which was to Brunson's advantage coming from Dallas trying to prove he was that guy. Thibs didn't coach up Brunson. Brunson was leveling himself up all along from childhood to now. Thibs only contribution to Brunson's success was giving him the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

If you'll recall, Thibs did exactly the same thing with his previous # 1 option, Julius Randle. It didn't matter that Randle went from being a plus defender in the bubble season to a turnstile by those playoffs and all years after that. Thibs did absolutely nothing to adjust Randle's conduct on and off the court.

Thibs was nothing more than a ride his # 1 option guy going all the way back to DRose. Thibs has no bag himself.

Don’t agree with ant of your above.

Every year Thibs and Knicks well exceeded their early season records.

Before Brunson came to the Knicks, he was a high level backup PG. Similar story either Randle, iHart, Mitch, Josh.

Individuals got better, team got better.

I will never expect many Knicks fan to agree with me which if OK.

Whatever hands-on coaching Thibs may have done earlier in his career was nowhere to be seen IMO.

If a coach has zero to contribute during a game we are all watching ourselves then there is no way they have much to say to the players that is educational and leads to improvements off the court.

Can you honestly tell me you witnessed Thibs make actual in-game adjustments more than 10% of the time? It was very rare

Knicks got better every year and you wanna convince me that a head coach doesn’t make actual in game adjustments more than 10% of the time and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know how to watch the game closely enough at an nba level.

Maybe we should ask Joe Mazulla why he couldn’t adjust to the Knicks series last year with more talent.

He's a good coach to push players into working hard, so he is a guy can get a middling roster to overachieve through sheer effort.

But our rise in the standings was due to our roster vastly improving over the last two years, not due to Thibs.

NBA players succeed mostly due to their own habits and dedication. The coach is not the primary ingredient to having a long and successful career and that includes great coaches like Spo or Pops. So that is not a knock against Thibs. A good coach can help a career and a bad coach can sabotage career, but mostly it is the player themselves who determine who makes it in the league and who plays abroad.

What good coaches do is they build a system around the players they have and not impose the same system regardless of whom they have. Thibs did the latter and it lacked creativity which is why Brunson was a gift to him, because of his ability to create in iso. But most of his tenure Thibs ran iso heavy offenses that lacked imagination. Brown has come in and done the opposite and he is building systems around the player strengths, not imposing a cookie cutter approach. ISO is now mixed in with better movement on and off the ball.

Saying you can't argue with success doesn't mean much to me when you have a starting unit you can arguably say is at least top 3 talent-wise in the NBA. They are going to succeed to some extent without any coaching at all, but no talent level is enough with coaching that does not adjust and Thibs had very little to offer there.

Every year Thibs teams burn out in the playoffs. It is a pattern. Good coaches plan for the playoffs early in the season and make sure they have enough soldiers ready to go, something Thibs failed at miserably.

He's not a championship coach, just an overrated journeyman coach who lucked into some MVP talents along the way.

The first bolded sentence: There is zero way for you to substantiate this. Zero. It’s just you making something up.

Coaches build what they have with their players. Knicks had been a heavy rebounding and defensive team while also being a top offensive team in other years.

No, every year the Knicks team didn’t burn out. They had key injuries. You blew past that. Last year they did burn out cause of multiple injuries and a training camp trade that decimated their bench.

The Cavs coach should just adjust. Steve Kerr should just adjust. Somehow they forgot how to.

You can say that Brunson was a gift or you can say that Thibs put him in a position to ultra succeed at levels no one thought possible and that every other Dallas coach didn’t adjust in a way that made him MVP level caliber. Which is it?

With these being the typical starting lineup by the previous 3 seasons, I'd say the stats quite well substantiate we've had a major talent upgrade over the course of the previous two seasons.

Saying I have zero proof that an increase in talent correlates with a better record is probably where this should end since you clearly hold Thibs in quite high esteem as a coach and I do not.

2022-2023
Fournier
Burks
RJ
Randle
Mitch

2023-2024
Brunson
Grimes
Mitch
Randle
RJ

2024-2025
Brunson
Hart
KAT
Bridges
OG

I wont dispute that there was an increase in talent but that’s not really what you are saying. You are saying that you can tell how much a coach adds on top of the talent add and it’s not much or coach didn’t add anything. That’s hogwash.

Look at the Cavs. It’s a good example.

Specifically with last year, how much time does a coaching staff need to plan out a training camp and an offense and defense for a new season? What’s your experience and take on that? Days? Weeks? Months? What’s the norm? And should talent alone just make them a top offensive team or is there more to it?

And if there isn’t more to it, why don’t Cavs just have a better team?

Regardless of our opinion of Thibs, I'm very pleased Brown is the coach now.

If you'd be satisfied with Thibs still coaching us this is fine too.

Comparing him to Brown is silly IMO. We traded away alot of depth to get KAT last summer, we were never supposed to win last year, it was understood we probably needed a year to gel, and an offseason to restore some of the depth. Just about every analyst had us losing to BOS, we exceeded expectations beating the defending champs. And did so in dramatic fashion with those huge comeback wins on the road.

Brown has done a good job, he also has the benefit of having a team that has been together a year and now has chemistry and is comfortable with each other. And of course the benefit of actually having a bench. Thibs didn't have Mitch, Clarkson or Shamet last year, that would have made a huge difference. People like to talk about the MPG last year, but ignore the previous years when we had a deep team and not a single player in the top 20 in MPG. And guess what, maybe MPG doesn't even really matter because we were one of the healthiest team in the NBA under Thibs. Maybe conditioning is more important than constant rest. I mean has rest helped injury prone players like Khawi, Embiid, AD...etc?

Thibs did a great job developing players, we had so many late 1sts and 2nd rounders that played key roles for us under Thibs. Deuce was developed behind the scenes slowly and turned into a huge piece for us. Yes development can happen slowly and behind the scenes, that's normal. It's not just about throwing Knox out there for 30mpg and letting him develop bad habits, that wasn't development at all.

It's crazy to think a 2nd rounder like Kolek would be ready to contribute on a contender from day 1, that just almost never happens. But if you don't think a year in the NBA, under Thibs, practicing wasn't hugely beneficial then IDK what to say. Kolek wasn't playing under Brown either, until Shamet AND Deuce both went down, and then he got his chance and took it, because he was ready, not because he was just immediately thrown in there.

I swear its like some people don't remember anything that happened. We can appreciate what Brown is doing without slandering the man who helped get us here.

nycericanguy wrote:Unfortunately NY fans have a way of not appreciating players/coaches. Thibs did a great job here, he bought the franchise back and made it appealing to a guy like Jalen Brunson.

Comparing him to Brown is silly IMO. We traded away alot of depth to get KAT last summer, we were never supposed to win last year, it was understood we probably needed a year to gel, and an offseason to restore some of the depth. Just about every analyst had us losing to BOS, we exceeded expectations beating the defending champs. And did so in dramatic fashion with those huge comeback wins on the road.

Brown has done a good job, he also has the benefit of having a team that has been together a year and now has chemistry and is comfortable with each other. And of course the benefit of actually having a bench. Thibs didn't have Mitch, Clarkson or Shamet last year, that would have made a huge difference. People like to talk about the MPG last year, but ignore the previous years when we had a deep team and not a single player in the top 20 in MPG. And guess what, maybe MPG doesn't even really matter because we were one of the healthiest team in the NBA under Thibs. Maybe conditioning is more important than constant rest. I mean has rest helped injury prone players like Khawi, Embiid, AD...etc?

Thibs did a great job developing players, we had so many late 1sts and 2nd rounders that played key roles for us under Thibs. Deuce was developed behind the scenes slowly and turned into a huge piece for us. Yes development can happen slowly and behind the scenes, that's normal. It's not just about throwing Knox out there for 30mpg and letting him develop bad habits, that wasn't development at all.

It's crazy to think a 2nd rounder like Kolek would be ready to contribute on a contender from day 1, that just almost never happens. But if you don't think a year in the NBA, under Thibs, practicing wasn't hugely beneficial then IDK what to say. Kolek wasn't playing under Brown either, until Shamet AND Deuce both went down, and then he got his chance and took it, because he was ready, not because he was just immediately thrown in there.

I swear its like some people don't remember anything that happened. We can appreciate what Brown is doing without slandering the man who helped get us here.

Kolek had the same bag out of college as he has now a year later and he should have been worked into the rotation in his rookie season because he was more than capable of contributing given the chance, not that he would wow anyone on Day 1.

BlueKnickers wrote:Kolek had the same bag out of college as he has now a year later and he should have been worked into the rotation in his rookie season because he was more than capable of contributing given the chance, not that he would wow anyone on Day 1.

BlueKnickers wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:Kolek had the same bag out of college as he has now a year later and he should have been worked into the rotation in his rookie season because he was more than capable of contributing given the chance, not that he would wow anyone on Day 1.

Disagree on this point. Last year he couldn't really go right and had trouble finishing. You could in his summer training videos that he worked on getting more craft on his finishes and harder counters to his left hand drives. I was admittedly low on Kolek going into the season and was worried when Brogdan retired. I've been proven wrong.

It's water under the bridge. The good news is Kolek is a contributing member of the rotation now and I'm glad every Knicks fan gets the pleasure of having an old school PG in the mix. It's fun to watch him play with Brunson.

BlueKnickers, I really like your posts.

There are at least 2-3 giant leaps that all players moving up a level need to adjust to. The athletic and speed jump. The complexity of what teams need to do and run. NBA lifestyle.

It’s a very rare athlete that can come in and immediately contribute. Ask any D1 college coach on the jump from high school to college. And when you hear that, ask them if the jump to the pros is like double or 10 times as hard.

Anyone have a good list of end of first or beginning of second round guys who got immediate playing time for a contending team and contributed? That would be an interesting start.

Kolek defense was very very very bad last year at every turn, it’s different this year. He isn’t necessarily immediately and instantly exploitable. That was his turning point imho