Jmpasq wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Its not just Thibs. He couldn't earn a consistent role under Fizdale or Miller either

Well if Fizdale hated Frank too I mean that’s all the evidence one needs

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Funny how Ntilikina was used, wasn't it?

Oh, sitting on the bench ALL GAME LONG watching Trae Young shred the Knicks. So Thibs, who you say doesn't trust him, says hey kid - there's seconds left on the clock - just step in and stop Trey Young who's on fire (and if you can't do that well, I don't trust you anymore).

Barkley gets it. Reggie Miller gets it. The haters don't get it.

In the playoffs, if you are losing you pull a Ben Simmons for a Maxey because you don't care how you win - WIN at any cost.

You're telling me that Ntilikina who has a history of locking down guys like Irving, Doncic, Young and others was just too much of a stretch.

No, it was a message, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. This organization will never give you a fair shake."

This has always been about politics more than Frankie's talent.

We still lose the series no question but it would have been nice for us to not only be more competitive but also Thibs made it way too easy for Trae using Elf, Rose and Bullock to guard him on the perimeter

wargames wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Funny how Ntilikina was used, wasn't it?

Oh, sitting on the bench ALL GAME LONG watching Trae Young shred the Knicks. So Thibs, who you say doesn't trust him, says hey kid - there's seconds left on the clock - just step in and stop Trey Young who's on fire (and if you can't do that well, I don't trust you anymore).

Barkley gets it. Reggie Miller gets it. The haters don't get it.

In the playoffs, if you are losing you pull a Ben Simmons for a Maxey because you don't care how you win - WIN at any cost.

You're telling me that Ntilikina who has a history of locking down guys like Irving, Doncic, Young and others was just too much of a stretch.

No, it was a message, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. This organization will never give you a fair shake."

This has always been about politics more than Frankie's talent.

We still lose the series no question but it would have been nice for us to not only be more competitive but also Thibs made it way too easy for Trae using Elf, Rose and Bullock to guard him on the perimeter

Exactly, that’s the real issue. There was no attempt to adjust. Not even a “let’s try this for a quarter”. The disciplinarian principles that got Randle and Thibs season awards left them exposed come the playoffs.

We’ll see what happens but they need some coaching improvements. Especially on the offense.

gradyandrew wrote:Here's my prediction for the 2021-22 off season:

Randle 20 no extension
RJ 6.6
Noah 6.4 yeah
Obi 5.1
Knox 5.8
Robinson 1.8
Quickley 2.2
Pelle 1.7
Vildoza 3.3
Two rookies 4
Rose 9 FA hold
Bullock 4.8 FA hold
Taj 4 FA hold
Renounce Frank, Burks, Noel

Total Salary 77 million, cap 116 million, cap space 39 million.

An optimistic take on the season- through thick and thin the Knicks competed with the top teams in the conference. The playoffs we're bad luck but at least at 32 years old we saw Derrick Rose can still perform at a high level. The Knicks struggled to generate easy points inside after Robinson went down. If Robinson can play, maybe Knicks win the season. Development wise, RJ, IQ, Obi could take a leap next season, maybe Kevin knox shows something. The draft gives us a chance to add more depth.

In terms of filling out the roster, we keep the holds for Rose, Taj, and Bullock. We can sign them for deals starting at 13.3, 7, and 5.8 respectively after we hit the cap.

I like this team, I think this is the beginning of a good run for the franchise. Last time we were here was 2012. The mistake then was the Bargani trade and a deterioration of the locker room. My feeling, let's role with it.

Off season FAs:
Dinwiddie 20
Burks 8
Noel 8
Frank 3 (maybe)

Knicks closers:
Robinson/ Randle/ Barrett/ Dinwiddie/ Rose

Rotation:
Dinwiddie/ Rose/ Vildozs
Barrett/ Quickley/ Ntilinka
Bullock/ Burks/ Knox
Randle/ Toppin/ Gibson
Robinson/ Noel/ Pelle

Added a maybe after Frank to reflect the general consensus of the board. Is everyone else OK with this plan? It looks low risk, low reward to me.

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Exactly, that’s the real issue. There was no attempt to adjust. Not even a “let’s try this for a quarter”. The disciplinarian principles that got Randle and Thibs season awards left them exposed come the playoffs.

We’ll see what happens but they need some coaching improvements. Especially on the offense.

What the **** are you even talking about here?

Thibs just won Coach Of The Year. He pushed this team, which surprised everyone, into a 41 win team. (Which is like climbing Mount Doom from where the Knicks were before for 8 brutal years) They got the 4th seed and fought and took home court advantage in the playoffs. The defensive turnaround was remarkable. We are talking bottom of the barrel to near the top in several major categories. IIRC, the Knicks had the statistical 4th best overall defense in the entire league. The leap in wins was historic level against NBA modern history.

This team didn't have multiple ways to win, it didn't have the personnel. It had a limited set way to win games, relying heavily on Randle and RJB for offense and needing major defensive stops all the time. Once that was neutralized, there weren't too many other options.

Thibs did an incredible job this year. Many here were singing his praises and couldn't wait to start blowing him and now he's an ******* because he wouldn't play a lazy jogging ******* like Frank N?

Thibs EARNED the right to set his rotation the way he thought was best. Frank N was benched for most of the year and guess what? The Knicks won a ****load of games. So why would Thibs move away from that? If Frank N was the difference maker many of you claim he is and will be, he would have been a key contributor all year long. Was he? No.

Thibs has EARNED the benefit of the doubt. He did all this in ONE SEASON. And not just that, with a season stacked with limitations from the pandemic, basically no help from the top pick in Toppin and with many rusty players who were part of the Delete 8 layoff.

And yet some of you still want to cut off his balls for ..... Frank Ntilikina?

What did Ntilikina EARN this year? He didn't earn jack ****.

What more "coaching improvements" do you want from what Thibs gave this entire franchise this year? Was a historic turnaround and a playoff berth and a Coach Of The Year award not enough for you?

Plug in 'Payton' in all the places you have Frankie's name.

Thins inherited a very good Miller core (already playing .500ish ball) AND gained talent depth and health. Not so miraculous.

Don't couple Frankie to Thibs. Neither did anything for the other. Frankie was treated like a fifth wheel all season. No tears being shed here. The FO made their choices. There is no 'earn' involved (again see Payton whose mother may have more to do with his playing than anything else).

As for Frankie being lazy. I don't think so. He left in on the floor. Did he have off games. Yep. But NOBODY else on this team did.

Oh, and keep that turnaround in mind. This year may be equally miraculous... for Miami, Toronto, Indy,...

Did notice that Frank played more as a wing rather than as PG this season. If we need a 3 and D guy with some decent passing, Frank still looks serviceable.

gradyandrew wrote:It's not either or. I respect Thibs and the job he did in the regular season while also wishing he had been a little more experimental in the playoffs.

Did notice that Frank played more as a wing rather than as PG this season. If we need a 3 and D guy with some decent passing, Frank still looks serviceable.

Total coaches who are experimental with the 11-13th guys on their bench in the history of NBA playoffs: exactly zero.

If you think or would like to argue differently, please show us what teams have done so with success.

martin wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:It's not either or. I respect Thibs and the job he did in the regular season while also wishing he had been a little more experimental in the playoffs.

Did notice that Frank played more as a wing rather than as PG this season. If we need a 3 and D guy with some decent passing, Frank still looks serviceable.

Total coaches who are experimental with the 11-13th guys on their bench in the history of NBA playoffs: exactly zero.

If you think or would like to argue differently, please show us what teams have done so with success.

Does Terrance Mann's run this year count? 11th on team in regular season mpg (counting Rondo and Williams as 1 spot) 0% of regular season minutes at center then turned the season around playing at the 5 for all of the pivotal 3rd quarter of game 6, including a "you can't guard me" at 3 year DPOY Gobert.

Of course it's a different - he played a lot more in the regular season than Frank this year. But bringing in a smaller line up of shooters to open up the paint or relying on your best perimeter defender to cover the opposing star guard- these aren't really revolutionary moves, right?

wargames wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Exactly, that’s the real issue. There was no attempt to adjust. Not even a “let’s try this for a quarter”. The disciplinarian principles that got Randle and Thibs season awards left them exposed come the playoffs.

We’ll see what happens but they need some coaching improvements. Especially on the offense.

What the **** are you even talking about here?

Thibs just won Coach Of The Year. He pushed this team, which surprised everyone, into a 41 win team. (Which is like climbing Mount Doom from where the Knicks were before for 8 brutal years) They got the 4th seed and fought and took home court advantage in the playoffs. The defensive turnaround was remarkable. We are talking bottom of the barrel to near the top in several major categories. IIRC, the Knicks had the statistical 4th best overall defense in the entire league. The leap in wins was historic level against NBA modern history.

This team didn't have multiple ways to win, it didn't have the personnel. It had a limited set way to win games, relying heavily on Randle and RJB for offense and needing major defensive stops all the time. Once that was neutralized, there weren't too many other options.

Thibs did an incredible job this year. Many here were singing his praises and couldn't wait to start blowing him and now he's an ******* because he wouldn't play a lazy jogging ******* like Frank N?

Thibs EARNED the right to set his rotation the way he thought was best. Frank N was benched for most of the year and guess what? The Knicks won a ****load of games. So why would Thibs move away from that? If Frank N was the difference maker many of you claim he is and will be, he would have been a key contributor all year long. Was he? No.

Thibs has EARNED the benefit of the doubt. He did all this in ONE SEASON. And not just that, with a season stacked with limitations from the pandemic, basically no help from the top pick in Toppin and with many rusty players who were part of the Delete 8 layoff.

And yet some of you still want to cut off his balls for ..... Frank Ntilikina?

What did Ntilikina EARN this year? He didn't earn jack ****.

What more "coaching improvements" do you want from what Thibs gave this entire franchise this year? Was a historic turnaround and a playoff berth and a Coach Of The Year award not enough for you?

First off calm the **** down and don’t press me on wtf I am talking about, if you read the posts I made in this thread I said it a few times. It’s not about Frank, it’s about Thibs and questioning his playoff strategy. The fact Thibs system worked great in the regular season doesn’t mean he is above reproach based on his playoff failings.

Him winning a ****load of games to get home advantage, playing guys heavy minutes, and then losing in the first round of 5 games is pointless victory. Forget riding his nuts and acting like this is honky dorry, that is also pointless.

COY is a great individual honor but as I said he didn’t adjust in the playoffs and deserves **** for it. If you watch other series you can see a bunch of coaches making adjustments to opponents. Randle got beat the **** up for five games and Thibs didn’t make a change of the guys around him except putting Derrick Rose in as a starter in game 3 after he carried the team to its only victory in game 2. Let’s go beyond Frank. Let’s talk about the fact he didn’t try to stagger RJ and Randle with other players to see if that could work, or play Randle as a small ball five to try to draw Capella out the paint. You say it’s personnel. I see it as missing the point of the playoffs where your trying to get a mismatch to exploit and score. Unless you have a big three with Lebron in his prime you can’t expect to win that way.

I don’t want to keep going back and forth with you on this because your stuck on a regular season performance and I’m talking about the playoff performance. Apples and oranges in regards to execution. The only reason Frank keeps being brought up is because how badly he was used in the playoffs. It would have made more sense not to use him all. It was a tactic Thibs used a few times in the regular season and he did it twice in the same game. Sp it wasn’t even a surprise tactics on the Trae game winner shot. Putting someone cold in while the team is in foul trouble to get a stop is bad coaching. He could have done that with Kawhi as the defender instead of Frank and it would be noticeable for how out of place it is in a playoff game.

Now is Thib the only guy who should get some side eye right now. Nope Snyder who was also a COY candidate stood there and watched Gobert get lit up (and the rest of the whole team). Now imagine that was like a game 3 and he came back the next game and ran Gobert out there for him to get abused again. Jazz fans would have been passed and called him out for being unaware to adaption.

+1

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Exactly, that’s the real issue. There was no attempt to adjust. Not even a “let’s try this for a quarter”. The disciplinarian principles that got Randle and Thibs season awards left them exposed come the playoffs.

We’ll see what happens but they need some coaching improvements. Especially on the offense.

What the **** are you even talking about here?

Thibs just won Coach Of The Year. He pushed this team, which surprised everyone, into a 41 win team. (Which is like climbing Mount Doom from where the Knicks were before for 8 brutal years) They got the 4th seed and fought and took home court advantage in the playoffs. The defensive turnaround was remarkable. We are talking bottom of the barrel to near the top in several major categories. IIRC, the Knicks had the statistical 4th best overall defense in the entire league. The leap in wins was historic level against NBA modern history.

This team didn't have multiple ways to win, it didn't have the personnel. It had a limited set way to win games, relying heavily on Randle and RJB for offense and needing major defensive stops all the time. Once that was neutralized, there weren't too many other options.

Thibs did an incredible job this year. Many here were singing his praises and couldn't wait to start blowing him and now he's an ******* because he wouldn't play a lazy jogging ******* like Frank N?

Thibs EARNED the right to set his rotation the way he thought was best. Frank N was benched for most of the year and guess what? The Knicks won a ****load of games. So why would Thibs move away from that? If Frank N was the difference maker many of you claim he is and will be, he would have been a key contributor all year long. Was he? No.

Thibs has EARNED the benefit of the doubt. He did all this in ONE SEASON. And not just that, with a season stacked with limitations from the pandemic, basically no help from the top pick in Toppin and with many rusty players who were part of the Delete 8 layoff.

And yet some of you still want to cut off his balls for ..... Frank Ntilikina?

What did Ntilikina EARN this year? He didn't earn jack ****.

What more "coaching improvements" do you want from what Thibs gave this entire franchise this year? Was a historic turnaround and a playoff berth and a Coach Of The Year award not enough for you?

Plug in 'Payton' in all the places you have Frankie's name.

Thins inherited a very good Miller core (already playing .500ish ball) AND gained talent depth and health. Not so miraculous.

Don't couple Frankie to Thibs. Neither did anything for the other. Frankie was treated like a fifth wheel all season. No tears being shed here. The FO made their choices. There is no 'earn' involved (again see Payton whose mother may have more to do with his playing than anything else).

As for Frankie being lazy. I don't think so. He left in on the floor. Did he have off games. Yep. But NOBODY else on this team did.

Oh, and keep that turnaround in mind. This year may be equally miraculous... for Miami, Toronto, Indy,...

When you make an argument based off of a single fact and then try to grow it from there, best double check to make sure that starting point is actually correct.

Miller coached the team to a 17-27 record.

I never cited the win - loss record. I was referring to the quality of play by season's end. I need not repeat Fizdale's insipid coaching history and all-round bad judgement.

Miller's core team remained intact for Thibs. The FO surrounded that group nicely and with some luck so that the trajectory Miller had established should have/would have resulted in at least a .500 record. Add to that Thibs' own history of adding 10 wins to a team he takes over and you get a season like this one.

Not so much a miracle as the result of Phil Jackson's hires and organizational hardening (G-League, Miller and core players) blossoming and the new FO building on that.

But Thibs history includes not just first year 'miracles', it includes the years after the miracle.

Nobody:
You: Thibs team and Coach of Year were really built off of backs of Miller’s half year coaching and Phil Jackson’s hires and organizational skills.

That right there is the sweet sweet smell of a lot of disjointed argument making and desperation thinking