HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right

I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

Like the Coughlin comparison. Not just becuase I am a Giant fan. Coughlin came in with same reputation of being a hard nose coach, not being flexible with his players and over working them. What the Giants found out is that he taught discipline, held everyone accountable and taught a great work ethic. THINGS NEEDED to excel at a high level. You add the correct talent to that formula and you win Championships.

Thats not what happened at all. Coughlin was about to be fired because he was riding his players too hard. Ownership told him to ease up,and he did. The rest is history. Hopefully Thibs will go the same route.

What did I say that did not happen? Never said anything about Coughlin not having to change. Agree with that. Although, I think the stuff about management ready to fire him because of how tough he was might be a bit overblown. Think losing records may have been stronger reasons. And I do not think Coughlin ever stopped demanding players to be tough, hard nosed, accountable, hard working and demanded they pay attention to detail. Like Thibs, don't think that you can change that about coaches. I think the only thing Coughlin changed was his ability to build better relationships with players and how to delegate, to team leaders, the responsibility of holding others accountable.

My point was that Coughlin, like Thibs, is coming in with a reputation of being hard nosed and too hard on players. Which is a separate debate. Think like any smart person, he will make adjustments, as he has said he would and as did Coughlin. But do not think. like Coughlin, his main coaching traits will or need to change. Think he will still push grit, hard work, accountability and toughness. However, do think he realizes that player relationships and monitoring players health may be something he needs to watch. We shall see. Hopefully it is what the Knicks need to start heading towards a chip!

Thats what I hope to see from Thibs when it comes to how he plays his starters. Coughlin saw that he needed to be less confrontational in the way he runs the team. With Thibs I believe its relying too much on his best players. To the detriment of their health, and the team's playoff aspirations.

Coughlin saw that his approach was making it harder for the team to contend. Hoping Thibs sees that doing things the same way will probably yield the same results. Short of contention.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/14504114/how-tom-coughlin-changed-ways-won-new-york-giants-nfl

Coughlin would become one of the more difficult head coaches to play for. Michael Strahan and Tiki Barber rarely agreed on anything in their playing days together, except for the fact they couldn't stand Coughlin, who spent more time worrying about whether his players were wearing appropriate dress socks in hotel lobbies than he did about connecting with them as human beings.

Everything changed, of course, after Coughlin was nearly fired following the 2006 season. John Mara told him he needed to take something off his fastball, that he had to ease up with the players and the news media, and Coughlin agreed. The coach told Mara he wanted to establish a leadership council of veterans to bridge the divide between his office and the locker room. "If I could do cartwheels," Mara said, "I would've done one that day."

There were assists along the way. Coughlin's wife, Judy, and children implored him to show his private self in public settings. Charles Way, a former Giants fullback serving as director of player development, told Coughlin that many players didn't have father figures and that they needed to see him in that context.

HofstraBBall wrote:+100. When I first saw the David West rant, I thought it was a simple case of someone trying to say the right thing but not having his facts straight. Simply put, a somewhat ignorant attempt at making a broader point.

As you said. the Knicks hired Derik Fisher. Biggest example of taking a run at a high risk candidate who was not the "Best" available option. They then hired an African American GM and Prez. This was followed by a thorough search for new coach which ended up in the hiring of another African American coach in David Fizdale. I mean, did David West not know any of this?

But again, do not think this was as big of a deal as some are making it. Again, just a another guy trying to make a point but just not having all the facts. To me it would have been like a Asian person coming out and pushing for an Asian hire in the NBA or a women pushing for a female hire. West just needed to do a little more research and maybe called out an organization with a BAD track record when it comes to minority hires.

houston20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

joec32033 wrote:8 of the last 13 Knicks head coaches were black, 7 if you take into account Herb Williams was used twice.

I am very careful discussing racial topics because it usually just ends up with emotion getting in the way (that goes both ways). However David West is out and out wrong here, especially making such comments about a team that has gone about hiring so many minorities. The Knicks have had several times when the full front office was minorities (Pres. GM. Coach), they have repeatedly shown that color no bearing on who they hire.

I respect the message but saying it is racism just because the guy they happen to have hired is white is irresponsible and ignorant. And I love David West as a player. Someone said it before, it trivializes those instances where true racism and bigotry do rear it's ugly head. You can be against hiring Thibs on a professional level, but given that he was the most proven and most successful and had the most proven track record and probably was the most stable(based on experience) of the realistically available coaches, to push all that aside and verbalize, as David West did, that he was just hired because he was white is ignorant. Couldn't it have been the fact after all the horrible decisions they have made, the Knicks needed the most seemingly stable, most solid track record candidate with possibly the least chance to fail?

But just as a white person getting a job just because they are white is wrong, so is calling to hire any minority just because they are a minority is wrong also.

I was not familiar with alot of the out of town interviewees, so I have an open question to anyone: Did any candidate have any comparable past success/track record to Thibs?

yea well maybe you havent been paying attention thats not viewed as a positive here by the anti Thibs crowd which is basically 3 guys saying the same things over and over in every thread.

Thibs wins, makes players better and makes teams better. The improvements when he takes over and slippage when he leaves cant be denied, it can only be spun... so I present you with this argument: "retread"

Imagine interviewing for a job you have demonstrated every desirable skill for an even have the track record to support those skills, yet you were passed over for someone with no experience but pretty ideas because you were a retread.

Joe I am with you. Thibs may or may not work out but he's an excellent coach who coaches to the strengths of his roster. Its a good hire, despite what the retread posters say

I agree with you on your post knicks hiring minority coaches mostly black coaches over last 20 years has been more then any other team. My thing is with people like david west he needs get facts right the knicks have hired more black coaches in 20 year stretch then whole of the nfl, mlb, or nhl has done combined. You know how the nfl needs rooney rule to give black coaches intervies the knicks just hire them more often actually give them chance just in certain cases it hasn't worked out. Look how steve mills and isiah thomas stayed on the knicks for a long period time before getting fired and they got plenty of chances and years they shouldn't have gotten.

Point taken, but I personally don't accept it. We can not keep giving people passes because they meant well or didn't know better. Now more than ever words are powerful, just insinuating someone is a racist labels them these days. Meaning well, and "trying to further the cause" are NOT free reign to blindly label people. If it is good for one, it needs to be good for all. Whether you are mistakingly insult black, white, Jew, or whatever no matter what color/race you are, you should be held accountable. Cherry picking who should be held accountable and who shouldn't isn't right. There are figures who said things that were stupid and came off wrong who were lambasted while others were given a pass. That is not right.

HofstraBBall wrote: Judging by some of your extended posts....

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

- Arthur Schopenhauer