Hofstra losing his **** wrote:So tell me who's got the smoke and mirrors? But yeah, your eye test is showing more potential for Frank, who's numbers show no sign of improvement but you think it's a priority to trade a 22 year kid who has shown more? Give it up.

The only next step in DS jr's career is to get healthy, because if he IS healthy and playing like he's shown his trajectory is China having scoring duels with Jimmer. You cant seem to grasp how wrong I want to be on this. Knicks have been desperate for good guard play. You think I give a **** about being right? This is what I see. I am curious about what YOU see but when I read all I get is "great rookie year" and **** about Frank. Lets leave all that behind and hear your thoughts on the current state of Dennis Smith cause from here it looks like ****

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Here's a question, how many Dallas games did you watch his rookie season? There's a danger in putting a lot of weight on stats regarding players on other teams who you didn't see play very often. And I would have a very hard time believing you watched many Dallas games during a 24 win season (by the way, a nine game drop off from the previous season).

What I find more telling is this, when DSJ was traded to us I checked out the Dallas message board and they were THRILLED to unload him. That leads me to believe those stats were only impressive on paper. Most of the fans who watched him play consistently were glad to see him go. And this wasn't a KP thing where the fans were bitter for off-court reasons, they simply didn't like what he delivered on the court. And after seeing him for parts of two seasons, I'm inclined to lean towards their assessment of him being more accurate than those stats.

The point regarding MCW is this, he also had impressive stats as a rookie. But Philly must have thought he wasn't as good as his stats/rookie of the year honor would lead you to believe and got rid of him in his second season. He's now in year seven and is barely hanging on to stay in the league.

Wait, your the one questioning actual stats over the eye test and your asking how many games have I watched? Which btw way, I saw most. As I wanted Smith,Donavon and Monk in draft and wanted to follow their progress. Easy to do with league pass. And if you love basketball.

Then you go on to use to other important metrics. One, the metric of what fans feel on a fan forum.
Makes sense. Two, the TWO years we aaw it for ourselves. Think you know he had a half of season last year. One which he created more and set more guys up than we had seen in a long time. Probably would have had double the assists if anyone on the team could shoot. As for the other year? Do you mean the 20+ games of limited playing, after an injury, mom died and he got booed by loyal fans? Fair take.

Here is the question for you. And for everyome else that wants to put wanting to trade a 22 year old who has showed potential as a fair take. WHY? His huge salary? His old age? Why? Hmmm....

So you're saying you watched most of his Dallas games and came away impressed, but actual Dallas fans wanted him gone. If you say so.

You keep saying he's shown potential. Potential to be what? I high volume shooter who puts up numbers that doesn't affect winning? An athletic undersized two guard forced to play PG without the skills to do so? A highlight reel dunker with the potential to win a slam dunk championship?

I honestly don't really want the guy traded because it would make the KP trade even worse, his trade value is rock bottom right now. But what do you do with the guy? Keep him on the bench? Play him no matter how horrible he has been? Send him to the g-league? Keep playing him token minutes hoping he turns it around. Invent some injury and shut him down for the rest of the year? Keep leaning on a multitude of excuses why he hasn't set the league on fire. At least Frank has shown the potential to deliver plays that affect winning. Can you honestly say DSJ has shown that?

And I'm not a Frank fan before you play that card.

Again, you asked if I watched, I did. And yes, a first year 20 year old putting up those numbers back up my eye test. Your the one arguing that fan forum reactions are more important then stats? Again.
If you saw Knick games last year with Smith in the line-up, you saw that the narrative of him being a high volume shooter was proven to be something made up by Knick fan forum fans defending the Frank pick over Smith. Hope that's not your main source of information.

I totally agree that he is at his lowest value. My biggest argument. He is also has a cheap contract. And yes, I was a big KP fan and it would be tough to have that turn into a 2nd round hope pick. How he gets it back or what we can do to get him back. I don't know. Nor do I know if the Knicks are the place to do so. I was just arguing that any 22 year old who has shown the athletic ability and has put up 15/5 numbers should be given a chance to develop. That and the fact some fans won't admit the Frank vs Smith hypocrisy. Not saying that you are one of them. But there are a lot. My whole thing is to pick a plan and stick to it. If we were truly rebuilding, we should find a way to develop young players. Not spit them out after 20 games. We just shifted our plan this year for the 10th time in 10 years. But that's a whole different thread.

The consensus from what I read on their message board was that the stats didn't accurately reflect his game and they were glad to see him gone. Evidently they weren't seeing what you apparently saw. And I'll admit, I can't say I saw "most of his games" his rookie year. I can say is looking at the stats my initial impression of Smith was "dang, I think we made a mistake not drafting him" until actually watching him play, which then led me to think "no thanks." I was open minded when we traded for him and hoped he would live up to his hype. He hasn't shown my much at any point of his career. He didn't impress me at NC State but of course he had the ACL recovery excuse. I think you're assessment is more wishful thinking than anything else. I really hope your patience with him is proven correct. I have zero faith that it will and we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what happens.

Also, it is possible to know early if a guy is not a player you want. Sometimes you're spot on (Michael Carter-Williams), sometimes you're proven wrong (Chauncey Billups). I'm betting Smith is not going to be anything special. I really hope I'm wrong. But it's not always a wrong decision to cut the cord early.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:bla bla bla bla Frank...

Hofstra losing his **** wrote:So tell me who's got the smoke and mirrors? But yeah, your eye test is showing more potential for Frank, who's numbers show no sign of improvement but you think it's a priority to trade a 22 year kid who has shown more? Give it up.

My "eye test" has Frank's current trajectory for "useful bench player." That is my exact quote. If you want to comment on my Frank love comment on my words, not yours.

The only next step in DS jr's career is to get healthy, because if he IS healthy and playing like he's shown his trajectory is China having scoring duels with Jimmer. You cant seem to grasp how wrong I want to be on this. Knicks have been desperate for good guard play. You think I give a **** about being right? This is what I see. I am curious about what YOU see but when I read all I get is "great rookie year" and **** about Frank. Lets leave all that behind and hear your thoughts on the current state of Dennis Smith cause from here it looks like ****

You keep going back to Frank and Smith. Not me. My point was to argue that he was a "horrible NBA player". He has not been according to normal measures. Unless you call your eye test more viable.

What do I see? Who cares! I prefer to stick to WHAT HE DID! Opinions are like......
What he is right now is a injured, low confidence 22 year old with a hitch in his shot.
But AGAIN, my point is why you want him traded at 22?

he put up empty stats on a low win team 2 years ago. Last year he pouted when Luca came on board and sat because of it.

Since then, pretty much nada and has looked worse on both ends of court.

His one strength was athleticism and he has lost it. Maybe he gets it back some but he still has to contend with the mental aspect of the game and he hasn't shown that.

When healthy he can use the athleticism to score and dish some. That’s it

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:bla bla bla bla Frank...

Hofstra losing his **** wrote:So tell me who's got the smoke and mirrors? But yeah, your eye test is showing more potential for Frank, who's numbers show no sign of improvement but you think it's a priority to trade a 22 year kid who has shown more? Give it up.

My "eye test" has Frank's current trajectory for "useful bench player." That is my exact quote. If you want to comment on my Frank love comment on my words, not yours.

The only next step in DS jr's career is to get healthy, because if he IS healthy and playing like he's shown his trajectory is China having scoring duels with Jimmer. You cant seem to grasp how wrong I want to be on this. Knicks have been desperate for good guard play. You think I give a **** about being right? This is what I see. I am curious about what YOU see but when I read all I get is "great rookie year" and **** about Frank. Lets leave all that behind and hear your thoughts on the current state of Dennis Smith cause from here it looks like ****

You keep going back to Frank and Smith. Not me. My point was to argue that he was a "horrible NBA player". He has not been according to normal measures. Unless you call your eye test more viable.

What do I see? Who cares! I prefer to stick to WHAT HE DID! Opinions are like......
What he is right now is a injured, low confidence 22 year old with a hitch in his shot.
But AGAIN, my point is why you want him traded at 22?

he put up empty stats on a low win team 2 years ago. Last year he pouted when Luca came on board and sat because of it.

Since then, pretty much nada and has looked worse on both ends of court.

His one strength was athleticism and he has lost it. Maybe he gets it back some but he still has to contend with the mental aspect of the game and he hasn't shown that.

Don't get the " empty stats on a low win team" put down. So Morris is trash? Randle? Trae Young? So RJ Barret's 13.7 and 3.2 are useless? As for Nada? Not altogether true. Granted this year has been dismal but in the span after leaving Dallas, in 2019, he averaged 15/5. Not "Nada" Better than most of our previous PG haul.

And by "pouting" do you mean a decision of his team to put him in a better position once they saw the writing on the wall? What's wrong with that. Dallas gave up a lot to draft their unicorn and had no room for Smith going forward. Are we going to ignore the business side to things that creates that perception. And blame the kids team for wanting the best for his future? Nah. I know we want kids to be loyal, sit on bench and do nothing while taking pay cuts for the betterment of the team. But that is really unrealistic and will only set many people up for multiple disappointments in today's sports realm.

Agree that his athleticism is his main strength. As is for most small guards. Agree his mental game should be the biggest worry. That along with a bad hitch in his shooting. He has a lot of question marks. As do ALL of our young kids. Is he going to make it? Don't know. But can you guarantee Mitch, RJ, Knox, Dot are guaranteed stars? Keep saying that this is not about defending Smith guaranteed success. Its about fans on here admitting their is a double standard when it comes to giving up on the 22 year old. They are bringing up fan forum opinion, eye test fluff, unknown rumored insight into character, 21 games over 2 years of play yet ignoring simple measured results, young age, low contract and his low trade value. Why? It would short sighted to trade him when he is at his lowest value. And with the potential he has shown. Regardless of the 21 game span he has had.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Here's a question, how many Dallas games did you watch his rookie season? There's a danger in putting a lot of weight on stats regarding players on other teams who you didn't see play very often. And I would have a very hard time believing you watched many Dallas games during a 24 win season (by the way, a nine game drop off from the previous season).

What I find more telling is this, when DSJ was traded to us I checked out the Dallas message board and they were THRILLED to unload him. That leads me to believe those stats were only impressive on paper. Most of the fans who watched him play consistently were glad to see him go. And this wasn't a KP thing where the fans were bitter for off-court reasons, they simply didn't like what he delivered on the court. And after seeing him for parts of two seasons, I'm inclined to lean towards their assessment of him being more accurate than those stats.

The point regarding MCW is this, he also had impressive stats as a rookie. But Philly must have thought he wasn't as good as his stats/rookie of the year honor would lead you to believe and got rid of him in his second season. He's now in year seven and is barely hanging on to stay in the league.

Wait, your the one questioning actual stats over the eye test and your asking how many games have I watched? Which btw way, I saw most. As I wanted Smith,Donavon and Monk in draft and wanted to follow their progress. Easy to do with league pass. And if you love basketball.

Then you go on to use to other important metrics. One, the metric of what fans feel on a fan forum.
Makes sense. Two, the TWO years we aaw it for ourselves. Think you know he had a half of season last year. One which he created more and set more guys up than we had seen in a long time. Probably would have had double the assists if anyone on the team could shoot. As for the other year? Do you mean the 20+ games of limited playing, after an injury, mom died and he got booed by loyal fans? Fair take.

Here is the question for you. And for everyome else that wants to put wanting to trade a 22 year old who has showed potential as a fair take. WHY? His huge salary? His old age? Why? Hmmm....

So you're saying you watched most of his Dallas games and came away impressed, but actual Dallas fans wanted him gone. If you say so.

You keep saying he's shown potential. Potential to be what? I high volume shooter who puts up numbers that doesn't affect winning? An athletic undersized two guard forced to play PG without the skills to do so? A highlight reel dunker with the potential to win a slam dunk championship?

I honestly don't really want the guy traded because it would make the KP trade even worse, his trade value is rock bottom right now. But what do you do with the guy? Keep him on the bench? Play him no matter how horrible he has been? Send him to the g-league? Keep playing him token minutes hoping he turns it around. Invent some injury and shut him down for the rest of the year? Keep leaning on a multitude of excuses why he hasn't set the league on fire. At least Frank has shown the potential to deliver plays that affect winning. Can you honestly say DSJ has shown that?

And I'm not a Frank fan before you play that card.

Again, you asked if I watched, I did. And yes, a first year 20 year old putting up those numbers back up my eye test. Your the one arguing that fan forum reactions are more important then stats? Again.
If you saw Knick games last year with Smith in the line-up, you saw that the narrative of him being a high volume shooter was proven to be something made up by Knick fan forum fans defending the Frank pick over Smith. Hope that's not your main source of information.

I totally agree that he is at his lowest value. My biggest argument. He is also has a cheap contract. And yes, I was a big KP fan and it would be tough to have that turn into a 2nd round hope pick. How he gets it back or what we can do to get him back. I don't know. Nor do I know if the Knicks are the place to do so. I was just arguing that any 22 year old who has shown the athletic ability and has put up 15/5 numbers should be given a chance to develop. That and the fact some fans won't admit the Frank vs Smith hypocrisy. Not saying that you are one of them. But there are a lot. My whole thing is to pick a plan and stick to it. If we were truly rebuilding, we should find a way to develop young players. Not spit them out after 20 games. We just shifted our plan this year for the 10th time in 10 years. But that's a whole different thread.

Well yes, the people who have a vested interest in his success who presumably wanted to see him succeed, their perception of his talent carries more weight than his stats. And god bless you if you have enough time to watch all the Knicks games and most of the Dallas, Utah, and Charlotte games to make an educated "eye test" assessment of their players.

The consensus from what I read on their message board was that the stats didn't accurately reflect his game and they were glad to see him gone. Evidently they weren't seeing what you apparently saw. And I'll admit, I can't say I saw "most of his games" his rookie year. I can say is looking at the stats my initial impression of Smith was "dang, I think we made a mistake not drafting him" until actually watching him play, which then led me to think "no thanks." I was open minded when we traded for him and hoped he would live up to his hype. He hasn't shown my much at any point of his career. He didn't impress me at NC State but of course he had the ACL recovery excuse. I think you're assessment is more wishful thinking than anything else. I really hope your patience with him is proven correct. I have zero faith that it will and we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what happens.

Also, it is possible to know early if a guy is not a player you want. Sometimes you're spot on (Michael Carter-Williams), sometimes you're proven wrong (Chauncey Billups). I'm betting Smith is not going to be anything special. I really hope I'm wrong. But it's not always a wrong decision to cut the cord early.

ALL of Knick games, yes. Most of Dallas games, yes. Also watched a lot of Melo in OKC. Utah, not so much, Charlotter, rarely.

As for the back and forth about how you value fan forum opinion, fair enough. Keep in mind if you checked ANY fan forum, you would have a hard time finding any positive posts about their players. Don't know how long you have been a fan but remember fans talking a lot of **** about Ewing, Houston etc etc. The list is long about forums posting negative things about their HOF players for what ever reason they can come up with. So not exactly a good measure when evaluating whether a player is any good. But like you said we will agree to disagree.

As for time needed to know when a player is good enough. NO. That's why good teams develop and give kids a reasonable time. In NYC its 20 games. You can keep saying MCW, but then I can respond to the long list of players that developed into very good NBA players, after short sighted teams gave up on them. We have a long list ourselves.

I would bet you can provide an even longer list of players who didn't look good early and proved to not be very good long term. That's the mistake I made with Mudiay, hoping he would be the exception (Billups) versus the more common and likely scenario (not being very good early and staying that way in spite of showing flashes). You're making the same mistake I made last year, hoping for the low percentage outcome instead of the likely outcome.

Welpee wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

When your defense of a player is to bring up another player, it’s telling and not in a good way

Posted stats to defend Smith. Mentioned Frank to back claim of hypocrisy when claiming a young 22 year old is shot.

Once again, for someone to say a 22 kid is a terrible NBA player, with those type of numbers, they must be biased. Saying a player with those type of numbers is "shot" is short sighted and a bunch of bull.

Sorry for the Frank fans that don't like him being used as an example. Could have used Mitch, RJ or Knox to show that young players have many things to work on but should not be given up on in their first three years.

Point was that preaching patience for other players with the excuse of age and need for development (Which I believe should be the case) but not having the same for Smith is hypocritical. The flack on Smith has other unfair narratives. Don't know why some are pretending they don't exist?

Pretty much everything you are saying is on point. Of all the under 23 and under players on our roster, Smith has shown just as much if not more promise than any of them. Our objective should be to un-tap the 22 yr old pg's potential and get him right. But instead, our impatient fanbase wants to ship him out.

One of my biggest problems with this franchise and some of our fanbase is the lack of patience and stability. Its the reason why we have had 6 coaches in 7 years, and why we boo a d 22 year old. However, we are quick to preach patience when its convent to our agenda or biases. Some are quick to preach patience when it comes to Frank, but Dennis is not afforded that same luxury. Anyone who frequents this board and doesn't see that there's a clear bias towards Frank by some of the posters here is either bias or not being truthful.

With that said, I think most of Dennis's issues are between the ears. I remember seeing Smith rocking a New York or Nowhere hat last year and seeing some of his interviews, it looked as though he was committed to being. The moment we signed Payton, rightly or wrongly, I think he felt as though we weren't as committed to him as he was committed to us. Add in the death of his stepmother, getting booed at home, hearing the crowd chant for the back-up QB, all had a toll on him.

As far as these reports are concerned, who knows if they are true or not. There is direct quote where Dennis says he wants to be here. You can call Dennis soft, or a snowflake, but also, make sure you call him a 22 year old.

I can be plenty patient.. just not with players who think they are entitled. Its toxic for the team. He didnt feel the team was committed to him? They arent. The team is committed to the team. All Dennis Smith accomplished on the floor was convince the FO that they needed veteran help and were right to do so. Im great with waiting on and working on 22 year olds... if they want to be here. Frank has been terrible but he shows flashes and has taken every demotion and bad game with an "I need to get better" attitude and he's getting better (slowly). Have we seen that from Smith? We havent *seen* anything but article saying he wants to be somewhere else.

The commitment is Knicks picked up his option. He's under contract. Thats the commitment. Its year 3 bro... up to you to start playing better basketball and showing something deserving of a commitment.

My god I wonder what DS was thinking watching Kadeem Allen come in and immediately have a good impact? Getting DS "fixed" would be great. The Knicks need talent and impact players. But if guys are going to cry about minutes or commitment when every time they are on the floor they are terrible what is the FO supposed to do?

The Knicks PG play is improving but still not great. This guy should be working getting healthy and getting back on the floor.

Mike still trying to prove that Frank was a better pick. So if the stats vs eye test argument don't make sense. And if the age consideration is only important for Frank. Then resort to pushing the false selfish narrative to make your point? Weak. Here are the two articles on Smith "entitlement"/ wanting a trade. One which does not even mention his name, just a bloggers assumption. Second where he directly answered the question. Once again, why the urgency to trade a 22 year old on a team friendly deal who has shown potential? Let me guess for the Knicks sake? Trade a major part of what we got for our Unicorn when his value is so low?

https://nypost.com/2019/12/28/knicks-dennis-smith-jr-responds-to-trade-rumors-as-frustrations-escalate/

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/a-few-knicks-players-reportedly-prefer-to-be-traded-marcus-morris-dennis-smith-jr-among-names-to-watch/

Well good! Maybe he doesn't want to be traded.

Now we can just focus on the abysmal basketball he's played since being a Knick. Based on the fact that he's played like a less athletic Mudiay I would say this guy has some physical issues. He's not an athlete basketball player right now plain and simple. That has him relying on... you can use your own eyes.

Mike, here's the thing about what you just said. I would buy that EXCEPT for the fact that when DSJ see a potential opportunity for a spectacular play, suddenly he's healthy. He feels good enough to try and posterize somebody on a dunk or catch somebody from behind on a fast break for a blocked shot. So when I see him do that, I throw the physical issue excuse out the window.

I haven’t seen the athleticism at all this year and I can’t think of a tremendously athletic play that he has been involved in. I think he was in a impromptu dunk contest in August against Devin Booker where he looked like he had regained his explosiveness but I haven’t seen anything since preseason started from him.

I remember two specific plays this season a few weeks ago, one when he exploded through the paint and tried to posterize a big waiting for him in the paint. The second play, there was a fast break and he attempted a playoff Lebron-like come from behind block. It was a rare opportunity to see DSJ bust his butt to attempt spectacular plays. When I saw that, in my opinion, the "not being healthy" excuse is off the table.

So your saying they are faking his current injury?

Welpee wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

When your defense of a player is to bring up another player, it’s telling and not in a good way

Posted stats to defend Smith. Mentioned Frank to back claim of hypocrisy when claiming a young 22 year old is shot.

Once again, for someone to say a 22 kid is a terrible NBA player, with those type of numbers, they must be biased. Saying a player with those type of numbers is "shot" is short sighted and a bunch of bull.

Sorry for the Frank fans that don't like him being used as an example. Could have used Mitch, RJ or Knox to show that young players have many things to work on but should not be given up on in their first three years.

Point was that preaching patience for other players with the excuse of age and need for development (Which I believe should be the case) but not having the same for Smith is hypocritical. The flack on Smith has other unfair narratives. Don't know why some are pretending they don't exist?

Pretty much everything you are saying is on point. Of all the under 23 and under players on our roster, Smith has shown just as much if not more promise than any of them. Our objective should be to un-tap the 22 yr old pg's potential and get him right. But instead, our impatient fanbase wants to ship him out.

One of my biggest problems with this franchise and some of our fanbase is the lack of patience and stability. Its the reason why we have had 6 coaches in 7 years, and why we boo a d 22 year old. However, we are quick to preach patience when its convent to our agenda or biases. Some are quick to preach patience when it comes to Frank, but Dennis is not afforded that same luxury. Anyone who frequents this board and doesn't see that there's a clear bias towards Frank by some of the posters here is either bias or not being truthful.

With that said, I think most of Dennis's issues are between the ears. I remember seeing Smith rocking a New York or Nowhere hat last year and seeing some of his interviews, it looked as though he was committed to being. The moment we signed Payton, rightly or wrongly, I think he felt as though we weren't as committed to him as he was committed to us. Add in the death of his stepmother, getting booed at home, hearing the crowd chant for the back-up QB, all had a toll on him.

As far as these reports are concerned, who knows if they are true or not. There is direct quote where Dennis says he wants to be here. You can call Dennis soft, or a snowflake, but also, make sure you call him a 22 year old.

I can be plenty patient.. just not with players who think they are entitled. Its toxic for the team. He didnt feel the team was committed to him? They arent. The team is committed to the team. All Dennis Smith accomplished on the floor was convince the FO that they needed veteran help and were right to do so. Im great with waiting on and working on 22 year olds... if they want to be here. Frank has been terrible but he shows flashes and has taken every demotion and bad game with an "I need to get better" attitude and he's getting better (slowly). Have we seen that from Smith? We havent *seen* anything but article saying he wants to be somewhere else.

The commitment is Knicks picked up his option. He's under contract. Thats the commitment. Its year 3 bro... up to you to start playing better basketball and showing something deserving of a commitment.

My god I wonder what DS was thinking watching Kadeem Allen come in and immediately have a good impact? Getting DS "fixed" would be great. The Knicks need talent and impact players. But if guys are going to cry about minutes or commitment when every time they are on the floor they are terrible what is the FO supposed to do?

The Knicks PG play is improving but still not great. This guy should be working getting healthy and getting back on the floor.

Mike still trying to prove that Frank was a better pick. So if the stats vs eye test argument don't make sense. And if the age consideration is only important for Frank. Then resort to pushing the false selfish narrative to make your point? Weak. Here are the two articles on Smith "entitlement"/ wanting a trade. One which does not even mention his name, just a bloggers assumption. Second where he directly answered the question. Once again, why the urgency to trade a 22 year old on a team friendly deal who has shown potential? Let me guess for the Knicks sake? Trade a major part of what we got for our Unicorn when his value is so low?

https://nypost.com/2019/12/28/knicks-dennis-smith-jr-responds-to-trade-rumors-as-frustrations-escalate/

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/a-few-knicks-players-reportedly-prefer-to-be-traded-marcus-morris-dennis-smith-jr-among-names-to-watch/

Well good! Maybe he doesn't want to be traded.

Now we can just focus on the abysmal basketball he's played since being a Knick. Based on the fact that he's played like a less athletic Mudiay I would say this guy has some physical issues. He's not an athlete basketball player right now plain and simple. That has him relying on... you can use your own eyes.

Mike, here's the thing about what you just said. I would buy that EXCEPT for the fact that when DSJ see a potential opportunity for a spectacular play, suddenly he's healthy. He feels good enough to try and posterize somebody on a dunk or catch somebody from behind on a fast break for a blocked shot. So when I see him do that, I throw the physical issue excuse out the window.

I haven’t seen the athleticism at all this year and I can’t think of a tremendously athletic play that he has been involved in. I think he was in a impromptu dunk contest in August against Devin Booker where he looked like he had regained his explosiveness but I haven’t seen anything since preseason started from him.

I remember two specific plays this season a few weeks ago, one when he exploded through the paint and tried to posterize a big waiting for him in the paint. The second play, there was a fast break and he attempted a playoff Lebron-like come from behind block. It was a rare opportunity to see DSJ bust his butt to attempt spectacular plays. When I saw that, in my opinion, the "not being healthy" excuse is off the table.

So your saying they are faking his current injury?

No. What I'm saying is people were excusing his lackadaisical play on the court to not being healthy. Those two plays showed me he was physically healthy. This was before the current injury that has him sitting out. Definitely not accusing anybody of faking an injury.

CrushAlot wrote:

Welpee wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

When your defense of a player is to bring up another player, it’s telling and not in a good way

Posted stats to defend Smith. Mentioned Frank to back claim of hypocrisy when claiming a young 22 year old is shot.

Once again, for someone to say a 22 kid is a terrible NBA player, with those type of numbers, they must be biased. Saying a player with those type of numbers is "shot" is short sighted and a bunch of bull.

Sorry for the Frank fans that don't like him being used as an example. Could have used Mitch, RJ or Knox to show that young players have many things to work on but should not be given up on in their first three years.

Point was that preaching patience for other players with the excuse of age and need for development (Which I believe should be the case) but not having the same for Smith is hypocritical. The flack on Smith has other unfair narratives. Don't know why some are pretending they don't exist?

Pretty much everything you are saying is on point. Of all the under 23 and under players on our roster, Smith has shown just as much if not more promise than any of them. Our objective should be to un-tap the 22 yr old pg's potential and get him right. But instead, our impatient fanbase wants to ship him out.

One of my biggest problems with this franchise and some of our fanbase is the lack of patience and stability. Its the reason why we have had 6 coaches in 7 years, and why we boo a d 22 year old. However, we are quick to preach patience when its convent to our agenda or biases. Some are quick to preach patience when it comes to Frank, but Dennis is not afforded that same luxury. Anyone who frequents this board and doesn't see that there's a clear bias towards Frank by some of the posters here is either bias or not being truthful.

With that said, I think most of Dennis's issues are between the ears. I remember seeing Smith rocking a New York or Nowhere hat last year and seeing some of his interviews, it looked as though he was committed to being. The moment we signed Payton, rightly or wrongly, I think he felt as though we weren't as committed to him as he was committed to us. Add in the death of his stepmother, getting booed at home, hearing the crowd chant for the back-up QB, all had a toll on him.

As far as these reports are concerned, who knows if they are true or not. There is direct quote where Dennis says he wants to be here. You can call Dennis soft, or a snowflake, but also, make sure you call him a 22 year old.

I can be plenty patient.. just not with players who think they are entitled. Its toxic for the team. He didnt feel the team was committed to him? They arent. The team is committed to the team. All Dennis Smith accomplished on the floor was convince the FO that they needed veteran help and were right to do so. Im great with waiting on and working on 22 year olds... if they want to be here. Frank has been terrible but he shows flashes and has taken every demotion and bad game with an "I need to get better" attitude and he's getting better (slowly). Have we seen that from Smith? We havent *seen* anything but article saying he wants to be somewhere else.

The commitment is Knicks picked up his option. He's under contract. Thats the commitment. Its year 3 bro... up to you to start playing better basketball and showing something deserving of a commitment.

My god I wonder what DS was thinking watching Kadeem Allen come in and immediately have a good impact? Getting DS "fixed" would be great. The Knicks need talent and impact players. But if guys are going to cry about minutes or commitment when every time they are on the floor they are terrible what is the FO supposed to do?

The Knicks PG play is improving but still not great. This guy should be working getting healthy and getting back on the floor.

Mike still trying to prove that Frank was a better pick. So if the stats vs eye test argument don't make sense. And if the age consideration is only important for Frank. Then resort to pushing the false selfish narrative to make your point? Weak. Here are the two articles on Smith "entitlement"/ wanting a trade. One which does not even mention his name, just a bloggers assumption. Second where he directly answered the question. Once again, why the urgency to trade a 22 year old on a team friendly deal who has shown potential? Let me guess for the Knicks sake? Trade a major part of what we got for our Unicorn when his value is so low?

https://nypost.com/2019/12/28/knicks-dennis-smith-jr-responds-to-trade-rumors-as-frustrations-escalate/

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/a-few-knicks-players-reportedly-prefer-to-be-traded-marcus-morris-dennis-smith-jr-among-names-to-watch/

Well good! Maybe he doesn't want to be traded.

Now we can just focus on the abysmal basketball he's played since being a Knick. Based on the fact that he's played like a less athletic Mudiay I would say this guy has some physical issues. He's not an athlete basketball player right now plain and simple. That has him relying on... you can use your own eyes.

Mike, here's the thing about what you just said. I would buy that EXCEPT for the fact that when DSJ see a potential opportunity for a spectacular play, suddenly he's healthy. He feels good enough to try and posterize somebody on a dunk or catch somebody from behind on a fast break for a blocked shot. So when I see him do that, I throw the physical issue excuse out the window.

I haven’t seen the athleticism at all this year and I can’t think of a tremendously athletic play that he has been involved in. I think he was in a impromptu dunk contest in August against Devin Booker where he looked like he had regained his explosiveness but I haven’t seen anything since preseason started from him.

I remember two specific plays this season a few weeks ago, one when he exploded through the paint and tried to posterize a big waiting for him in the paint. The second play, there was a fast break and he attempted a playoff Lebron-like come from behind block. It was a rare opportunity to see DSJ bust his butt to attempt spectacular plays. When I saw that, in my opinion, the "not being healthy" excuse is off the table.

So your saying they are faking his current injury?

No. What I'm saying is people were excusing his lackadaisical play on the court to not being healthy. Those two plays showed me he was physically healthy. This was before the current injury that has him sitting out. Definitely not accusing anybody of faking an injury.

I have seen the opposite. I remember him laying it up when he was ahead on the break and in the past would have done a highlight dunk. His game is characterized by his elite athleticism. You used to see it anytime he played. It hasn't been there this year and I don't think it is because he apathetic. He can have a poor attitude and be hurt. Also, sometimes when you are hurt you still says f@ck it and try to do something you could do if you weren't hurt.