newyorker4ever wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:If O Quinn and Kanter leave, it's fine. Without KP this is another tank year anyway. Let the kids play! Kornet, Robinson should get plenty of time and we are paying oah 18 mill anyway. He'll want to showcase himself for free agency, so it would seem to work out.

KP is schedule to play about 50 to 60 games, right around his average.

KP has no schedule at all from the team on how many games he will play next year.

True, but still, i really don't see KP ever playing more than 65 games, especially(even if he's a 100% healthy) with that condition he has.

Markji wrote:

Fishmike
I actually like Kanter, just not at the price or value he thinks he's worth. Yes... the Lopez money is about right. Zero defense. Zero passing. He crashes the boards, he gets buckets and he gets exploited on defense.

Sorry Fish, but I guess you didn't look at the clip I posted just above your comment. Give it a look and see that the net negative wasn't at all due to Kanter.
See him pass to wide-open Knicks and they miss the shot. See the hustle. See the positioning he takes. See how he moves to protect the paint. Etc.

1 clip does not make an argument. I can't believe we are at that point.

Markji wrote:I'm putting this up not to show statistics but to show Kanter's hustle:

He sprints up court to get in position;
Kanter then sprints back to get in position for defense;
then Kanter sprints upcourt to get in position for offense.

Then his supposedly bad defense. Really. Watch him sprint to get into position and keep pushing the opposing center (sometimes Dwight Howard) out of the paint and out of position.

I think people are just regurgitating comments about his defense and not watching his games. He is not perfect and he, like every NBA player gets beaten. But Kanter is a tough player and plays hard. And he is worth the $18 million if he opts in.

The debate is resigning him, and assuming he wants a similar salary giving him another 4 years at $18-$25mm is about the dumbest thing they could do.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Markji wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

reub wrote:

Welpee wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Welpee wrote:Questions:

1) Can Kanter get a long term deal at over $18M from any other team.
2) Can the Knicks convince Kanter that they need to see another year from him under a new coach before committing long term?

I wouldn't give Kanter a long term deal right now before seeing him perform under Fizdale. If they have to let him walk, as much as a like Kanter, we have to do what we have to do. I understand Kanter's (and KOQ's) position but it's just not in the best interest of the Knicks right now.

1) Given the current marketplace, No.

My best guess is his current value/approximation is 4/32 or 2/16, the second year being a team option or a player option depending on the pathway to possibly starting.

2) I don't see this issue as relevant to his situation. Kanter is outside his prime developmental window. He's "young" in real life terms, in NBA terms, he's a sunk cost.

The issue isn't Kanter's continued development, rather his fit in whatever system Fizdale runs.

Kanter is going to opt in, rain threes and increase his market value. Wait and see.

You say that likes it's far fetched or something. He's obviously been putting in plenty of practice at shooting 3's which he's been posting all the videos of and is something Fiz lets and tells his big men do, although i do think there's a chance he opts out, i still don't see him doing it and it's a contract year so he's gonna kill it next year. I really don't care either way if he opts in or out cause it's not gonna hurt us next season either way.

Unfortunately, it is far fetched.

Shooting with no one guarding you in an open gym, when you are well rested, and not getting beat up all game, not having to travel on back to backs, not nursing some nagging in season injury/pain, that's a different story from NBA game speed. Even shooting in some light scrimmages or non NBA games are not the same thing.

Here's the other issue. To be effective as a three point shooter, you actually also need the skill set to move without the ball. You don't need to go Joe Dumars on anyone, but you need to at least be league average in that department. Kanter is low IQ black hole with the ball in his hands. What he does now is run towards the basket, get the ball, and never give it up, and attack the cup. That's it. Out on the perimeter, he actually has to read the defense enough to help himself find good shots. He'll also have to put the ball on the floor. He'll also have to pass the ball at times because not every look ends up a clean look at the basket from long range.

Jason Kidd wasn't a super horrible transition from a horrible shooter to an OK one. He had a good handle. He could move without the ball. He could read the floor. He could make the pass when needed. He knew when to shoot and when to pass. Kanter is just gonna chuck it. He's a black hole now, he'll be a black hole forever. You stage him on the perimeter, he's gonna just get it and chuck it. He's going to make Corey Maggette look like John Stockon.

He's outside his prime developmental window. There's no long term progression to indicate a league average three point shot is coming. It doesn't just flip like a light switch. It's a multiple season progression.

It might be good to check stats before jumping to conclusions.
Kanter took a total of only 2 shots all year from 3 pt last year because those were his instructions from the head coach. He followed the instructions. In past years he has taken a few more 3 pt shots with a big variance from 13% to 75% on .2 shots per game to .8 shots per game.

When you say "He's outside his prime developmental window. There's no long term progression to indicate a league average three point shot is coming. It doesn't just flip like a light switch. It's a multiple season progression." that is just totally wrong. You didn't check Fizdale's last 2 coaching positions and how he developed the big men.

Miami - Chris Bosh - taking less than 1 3pt shot a game and less than 30% to in his last 3 years took 2.8; 3.8; 4.2 3pt shots making 34%; 38%; 37%. Taking many more shots than earlier years and a big improvement in %age.

Memphis - Marc Gasol - an even bigger improvement. Went from taking .1 or .2 3pt shots per game with 16% made to 3.6 and 4.4 3pt shots per game. hitting 36%.

So where do you come up with Kanter can't change and learn a 3 pt shot. In practice he is already doing great. He will transition that into his game.

I don't understand the hate for Kanter by some people. He is not a rim protector but he is a monster inside. Scoring; rebounding. And a great teammate. See Frank vs LeBron. I definitely want him back. He's probably the best center, and definitely the toughest center we have had since.....yes since then.

And last year he wasn't as bad as advertised on the defensive end. No, he wasn't great but he wasn't as big a liability as a lot of us feared. Now I assume this is where somebody posts some advance stat that is suppose to the be final word on any argument in spite of what you actually witnessed on the court.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK21.HTM
Look at KAnter's opposing FG%

Centers who play vs. Kanter light it up. Every night.

Kanter scores 27.8ppg with an EFG% of .593 per 48mins (thats good)
Opponents score 22.7 with an EFG% of .611 per 48mins (thats abysmal)

Effective FG% Allowed
54.0% (on court)
50.5% (off court)

Pretty much every metric, eye test, stat, game log, message forum and genie in a bottle all point to Kanter's defense being as horrible as advertised.

Guys like Greg Monroe have better opposing FG%s. Kanter's D is among the worst of any player getting minutes in the league

Check out his defensive numbers in the paint vs. the perimeter. Respectable in the paint, not so respectable on the perimeter.

which when it comes to defense means nothing...

I actually like Kanter. I think he can really help next year and even without KP I would not be surprised if the Knicks shock a lot of people. I think we have some pieces that can come together and play good basketball, maybe even a playoff berth in the weak east. Or we could win 18 games which would be fine... but I think we are better and Kanter is a big reason why. He's great on the glass, and he's a scorer.

The problem is as you mentioned.. if Kanter has to guard a player with a jumpshot he's the worst defensive player in the league. $18mm for next year is fine. I am moving on though and not offering him a long term deal. I like him as a 20mpg role player. But that's a $10mm a year guy, not the $20-$25mm a year he wants and expects. I think its that simple and means ba-bye after this deal is up, opt in or not.

Interior defense means nothing, got it. You and Martin keep peddling this crapola that Kanter is worth what we were paying Lopez 4 years ago. For one of the best post player/rebounders in the league. You sure Kanter would only take around 25 mill a year? Not possible that number is somewhere in between?

you keep peddling the crapola that Kanter is one of the best players in the league. Kanter's interior defense doesnt matter when you dont need to go there to exploit him. Harping on Kanter's interior defense is like talking about farts in the wind. Zero impact defensively on games and opposing centers have bloated EFF%

This is why Kanter lost his job to Steve Adams.

Paying a center who doesnt protect the rim and cant defend his position big money might be the dumbest thing I have heard Knick fans hope for... but every day is a new day.

BS. I never once said Kanter was one of the best overall players in the league, I have been very specific about his skill set. Kanter does protect the rim, check the numbers.

Doesnt make a lot of blocks, but he knows how to stay in front of his man in the post, and contest the shot. Adams is a better all round defender than Kanter.

OKC didnt want to give up Kanter, but they were desperate for Melo. You think they want that trade back? Not wanting Kanter is one thing, saying he's worth what a big was getting on the low end, years ago, with a different cap, is silly.

Paying Kanter around what he makes now considering the cap will be going up again, isnt overpaying.

We dont have a starting center yet. We might have one in Robinson, in a couple of seasons, maybe sooner. In the meantime having Kanter start until Robinson is ready, is a good way to smooth the transition. We arent contending for a few years.

Wont teach him to be a star defender from the perimeter, but Kanter can teach post moves, positioning, rebounding. Then Kanter can move to the bench, and be instant offense off the bench when the Knicks are hopefully ready to make some waves.

Yes.. please. Lets resign Kanter. Who needs cap space for Kyrie Irving or other players that will actually get the team better. When our cap is packed with guys like THJ and Kanter and may the parades begin.

Show me the numbers where Kanter protects the rim. I must have blinked. Every stat I have found shows the Knicks immediately improve defensively the minute Enes walks off the court.

Kanter is a nice stop gap pick up in a trade for a player we needed gone. Resigning him to what he's getting now would be a solid step in ensuring we stay mediocre but the chest pounding would be fun when we almost win, like during his great Phili performance.

I actually like Kanter, just not at the price or value he thinks he's worth. Yes... the Lopez money is about right. Zero defense. Zero passing. He crashes the boards, he gets buckets and he gets exploited on defense.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2763508-metrics-101-exposing-nbas-worst-defenders-at-each-position#slide5

Class of the Position: Joel Embiid, Philadelphia 76ers (7.54); Rudy Gobert, Utah Jazz (7.24); Al Horford, Boston Celtics (6.11); David West, Golden State Warriors (7.98)

Dishonorable Mentions: Cristiano Felicio, Chicago Bulls (minus-3.62); Kevin Love, Cleveland Cavaliers (minus-3.15); Enes Kanter, New York Knicks (minus-3.18); Greg Monroe, Boston Celtics (minus-2.99)

Showed you the inflated #s opposing centers have vs. Kanter
Showed you the Knicks improved defense when Kanter is off the floor
There is another metric above

We can do this all day.. if you are arguing Kanter's value you are on the wrong side of reality. Have at it...

Right, you want to explode the cap for someone who probably has the knees of a 40 year old by now, after all his surgeries.

You can find very good players in these numbers with the same differential. Doesnt mean they should be paid at bargain basement prices either.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=FGA_LT_06&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/

Markji wrote:I'm putting this up not to show statistics but to show Kanter's hustle:

He sprints up court to get in position;
Kanter then sprints back to get in position for defense;
then Kanter sprints upcourt to get in position for offense.

Then his supposedly bad defense. Really. Watch him sprint to get into position and keep pushing the opposing center (sometimes Dwight Howard) out of the paint and out of position.

I think people are just regurgitating comments about his defense and not watching his games. He is not perfect and he, like every NBA player gets beaten. But Kanter is a tough player and plays hard. And he is worth the $18 million if he opts in.

You'll never get through to certain people about this. To those people if a player doesn't play great defense then that means they play zero defense which is just ridiculous but......Knicks fans..............................

fishmike wrote:

Markji wrote:I'm putting this up not to show statistics but to show Kanter's hustle:

He sprints up court to get in position;
Kanter then sprints back to get in position for defense;
then Kanter sprints upcourt to get in position for offense.

Then his supposedly bad defense. Really. Watch him sprint to get into position and keep pushing the opposing center (sometimes Dwight Howard) out of the paint and out of position.

I think people are just regurgitating comments about his defense and not watching his games. He is not perfect and he, like every NBA player gets beaten. But Kanter is a tough player and plays hard. And he is worth the $18 million if he opts in.

I watched the game all year. Kanter is fun. He plays hard. He gets into it. Opting in for $18mm? Sure... he's a stop gap.

The debate is resigning him, and assuming he wants a similar salary giving him another 4 years at $18-$25mm is about the dumbest thing they could do.

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

reub wrote:Kanter tweeted something with In and Out in it.

Does that mean we're working on signing and trading him?

The Wizards traded Gortat and don't seem to have a center except for Mahinmi. What if we signed Kanter and then traded him to Washington for Mahinmi and Kelly Oubre? What do you guys think of that trade?

That would be a very good deal for NY. Oubre is a nice young player, and would fit in to the under 25 plan Mahinmi is solid backup type C.

I think you would still need a starting C and PF until KP come back. Can Noah do the job at C? For how long? Can Robinson even play in the NBA yet? This could be a very big issue this year.

Markji wrote:

martin wrote:

Markji wrote:

martin wrote:

Markji wrote:

Fishmike
I actually like Kanter, just not at the price or value he thinks he's worth. Yes... the Lopez money is about right. Zero defense. Zero passing. He crashes the boards, he gets buckets and he gets exploited on defense.

Sorry Fish, but I guess you didn't look at the clip I posted just above your comment. Give it a look and see that the net negative wasn't at all due to Kanter.
See him pass to wide-open Knicks and they miss the shot. See the hustle. See the positioning he takes. See how he moves to protect the paint. Etc.

1 clip does not make an argument. I can't believe we are at that point. We are not at this point.

Yes, I said that. The clip shows the hustle, not the stats. It's not highlights. Its a game.
Fish said "zero passing" - well Kanter passed 2x but the knicks missed their wide open shots. That's not zero passing. That is a made-up comment - fake news.
Fish said zero defense - Kanter is playing very good defense. Especially against D Howard. And switching men. That again is not zero defense.

What I am and have been saying - you and others use hyperbole and extremes to describe Kanter as being bad and they just don't hold up.

You thought Fish LITERALLY meant that Kanter didn't once in the whole year pass the ball or more like he's pretty much a black hole? Literally never had 1 defensive play or on the whole was a bad defensive player.

Really man, this is kind of a stupid way to make a point.

And if you want to debase yourself and use the phrase Fake News, have at it, but it's played and meaningless

OK Martin....It's becoming too personal so I will stop posting on this thread. The above clip was an analysis of Kanter's play not a highlights clip. I don't think you or Fish even bothered to watch it.
My comment above this one - I'll agree with Fish on not offering Kanter a big extension. I hope Kanter opts in for this year and we sign Kyrie next year.

I gotta agree with this. martin, your house your rules... but this really seems to get you hot for some reason

Gudris wrote:Kanter is opting in

There's no way he won't- if he stays he gets the front court to himself and can really showcase himself for next year. Plus if he can demonstrate he's developed a 3pt shot, it adds to his value. Plus there's no money or market for him this offseason and he likes New York.

Latest article:

New York Knicks center Enes Kanter is leaning heavily toward exercising his $18.6 million player option for 2018-19, sources told ESPN on Thursday.

Kanter will continue to survey the market until his Friday deadline, sources told ESPN, but barring an unforeseen significant change in the market, he will opt in.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23935333/enes-kanter-leaning-staying-new-york-knicks-player-option