nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Great coach's have great players.
Riles, Pop, Auerback all were excel with LONG careers as coach, and even as Execs.
Maybe pHil never gets it done, he was bought here to turn the franchise around.
After three years some of you can't fathom anything but what is in front of you.
Knicks with melo treaded water, three seasons, only one of our own draft picks.
Had to clean the mess up. Its taking longer. Future uncertain, panic stricken few fans who are in a tizz over the truth.

Some of you wanted the truth, and you can't handle it. Teams sucks. Melo holds the Ball, KP is not ready, a few bad trades, and again, sell the team and bring in some conceptual young guy that will do what again?

Enjoy the weather, watch a playoff game, go for a walk, and stop trying to find some conceptual truth in connecting the dots that somehow Phil is going away.

he is not.

Great executives bring in great players. They bring in coaches they believe in and try to get them players that fit what the coach is trying to do. They help to bring a stability to an organization and create a culture. Phil isn't the coach. He has brought in one great player when his team accidentally tanked. Phil hasn't believed in his coaches enough to not meddle and undermine them. There hasn't been a consistent coach or voice in the locker room. He has had four coaches and turned over the majority of the roster every year. There is no stability and no culture for the Knicks. Phil has been really bad at his job as an executive.

this is certainly the ugly phase. Not many teams going through something like this are going to talking about how all the positives adding up from all the losing.

As a Knick fan I have no loyalty to Melo. He has been about Melo first and foremost and above all else. He is certainly responsible for the only blip of good basketball played here (the always mentioned and coveted 54 win season).

The rest of the time? Melo quit on coaches. Melo put himself over team constantly. Probably Melo's best teammates he's had here were Lin and Tyson, two guys who walked away not exactly enamored with Melo.

Yup.. Melo is an NBA buddy. Everyone loves him. Everyone respects Melo. Players union loves him. He's been paid $200mm in the NBA. He's advanced in the playoffs twice. Everyone loves him until it comes time to sign a contract and play with him. Then the loves moves from Chris Paul and Lebron to the Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee types of league.

Of course much of the team is backing Melo, and of course a switch back to the triangle is going to look bad and not be well recieved. Also if the players can point to the front office and their issues it removes responsibility. Thats is normal in ANY work environment. If you are in sales and your management team sucks and your numbers suck you are going to say "how can I perform like this?"

That is the way the world turns.

I love all the posts "I cant wait to see how the Phil supporters... bla bla bla spin this."

There is no spin. Nothing Phil has done here has worked out, except drafting a couple good players. So does letting him stay equate support? Is that how Phil love is quantified? Whether its a deserving title or not Melo is an NBA star and he's been knocked by his own organization. Melo is going to seek allies. Just like your office mates, you talk to them move than anyone. IF you are popular and networked you will have opportunities to spin things, leak things, gain support, play politics...

Those things would be fine, but this relationship isnt worth salvaging. Melo doesnt defend, doesnt pass and to boot isnt the scorer he once was. The days of him being the main cog on an annual playoff team are long gone. He is a supporting player, but he acts like THE player.

Phil has phucked up left and right, but I want to see what this thing looks like without this personality to manage. Maybe its 2 more years of fumbling and if so Phil get canned, the next GM resigns the talent and we move forward. If after 5 years Phil did nothing but lose enough to build us up a core of good players I can live with that. I think we and Phil can do much better and *hope* we do, but its not happening with a diva here to that puts his brand first and to boot doesnt produce on the court.

Crzy mentioned Chris Paul and why doesnt he get knocked for failing in the playoffs. Did you see the game he had in the game 1 loss? The guy performs regardless. I think Phil is looking at the right kind of players. Melo hasnt worked and that cant be navigated until he moves on. Too big a mistake. It just needs to be cut clean. If you read all this and you walk away with "fish loves Phil" you need to stop posting on message forums

It being time for Melo to go doesn't mean Phil did a good job with Melo or anything else. And again the guy who supposedly learned back in the 80s that "leopards don't change their spots" is the guy who not only signed Melo but gave him a NTC which may still make him impossible to move this summer. Okay, so it's time to move on from Melo - you really trust Phil as the guy to do it?

Also, I've never been able to get around this part. You say Melo is about Melo, only cares about himself not the team.

What would you call Phil caring about the triangle more than winning a championship? That's what he's here for. He doesn't have some abstract notion of "caring about the team" that fans love to bring up - this is a billion dollar business by the way, not fantasy land - but Phil has made clear he puts winning WITH the triangle over winning. How is he not a selfish, me-first ego guy. I think he is. I'm sorta mystified you guys can't see it.

What is wrong with having a system you know inside and out? A system you had success with over decades and with different players. That is his base and how he wants the team to play but he's also been open to the changes Jeff has made. The notion that Jeff isn't doing what he wants is false. Just watch the game videos and most of what the Knicks are doing isn't old school Triangle.

I defy anyone to prove Jeff isn't being allowed to coach and use his own ideas. Jeff seems to have agreed that the Triangle fundamentals were needed to help the team have some structure but Phil does approve of Jeff's schemes on Early Motion Offense. They seem to be working well together.

My god. You're posting this in a thread that started with a report that Phil demanded a return to the Triangle, and I quote, "A system the coaches don't want to run and the players don't want to play."

Your proof Jeff isn't being allowed to coach and use his own ideas comes from the NBA's preeminent reporter and it is in the first post of this thread.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Great coach's have great players.
Riles, Pop, Auerback all were excel with LONG careers as coach, and even as Execs.
Maybe pHil never gets it done, he was bought here to turn the franchise around.
After three years some of you can't fathom anything but what is in front of you.
Knicks with melo treaded water, three seasons, only one of our own draft picks.
Had to clean the mess up. Its taking longer. Future uncertain, panic stricken few fans who are in a tizz over the truth.

Some of you wanted the truth, and you can't handle it. Teams sucks. Melo holds the Ball, KP is not ready, a few bad trades, and again, sell the team and bring in some conceptual young guy that will do what again?

Enjoy the weather, watch a playoff game, go for a walk, and stop trying to find some conceptual truth in connecting the dots that somehow Phil is going away.

he is not.

Great executives bring in great players. They bring in coaches they believe in and try to get them players that fit what the coach is trying to do. They help to bring a stability to an organization and create a culture. Phil isn't the coach. He has brought in one great player when his team accidentally tanked. Phil hasn't believed in his coaches enough to not meddle and undermine them. There hasn't been a consistent coach or voice in the locker room. He has had four coaches and turned over the majority of the roster every year. There is no stability and no culture for the Knicks. Phil has been really bad at his job as an executive.

this is certainly the ugly phase. Not many teams going through something like this are going to talking about how all the positives adding up from all the losing.

As a Knick fan I have no loyalty to Melo. He has been about Melo first and foremost and above all else. He is certainly responsible for the only blip of good basketball played here (the always mentioned and coveted 54 win season).

The rest of the time? Melo quit on coaches. Melo put himself over team constantly. Probably Melo's best teammates he's had here were Lin and Tyson, two guys who walked away not exactly enamored with Melo.

Yup.. Melo is an NBA buddy. Everyone loves him. Everyone respects Melo. Players union loves him. He's been paid $200mm in the NBA. He's advanced in the playoffs twice. Everyone loves him until it comes time to sign a contract and play with him. Then the loves moves from Chris Paul and Lebron to the Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee types of league.

Of course much of the team is backing Melo, and of course a switch back to the triangle is going to look bad and not be well recieved. Also if the players can point to the front office and their issues it removes responsibility. Thats is normal in ANY work environment. If you are in sales and your management team sucks and your numbers suck you are going to say "how can I perform like this?"

That is the way the world turns.

I love all the posts "I cant wait to see how the Phil supporters... bla bla bla spin this."

There is no spin. Nothing Phil has done here has worked out, except drafting a couple good players. So does letting him stay equate support? Is that how Phil love is quantified? Whether its a deserving title or not Melo is an NBA star and he's been knocked by his own organization. Melo is going to seek allies. Just like your office mates, you talk to them move than anyone. IF you are popular and networked you will have opportunities to spin things, leak things, gain support, play politics...

Those things would be fine, but this relationship isnt worth salvaging. Melo doesnt defend, doesnt pass and to boot isnt the scorer he once was. The days of him being the main cog on an annual playoff team are long gone. He is a supporting player, but he acts like THE player.

Phil has phucked up left and right, but I want to see what this thing looks like without this personality to manage. Maybe its 2 more years of fumbling and if so Phil get canned, the next GM resigns the talent and we move forward. If after 5 years Phil did nothing but lose enough to build us up a core of good players I can live with that. I think we and Phil can do much better and *hope* we do, but its not happening with a diva here to that puts his brand first and to boot doesnt produce on the court.

Crzy mentioned Chris Paul and why doesnt he get knocked for failing in the playoffs. Did you see the game he had in the game 1 loss? The guy performs regardless. I think Phil is looking at the right kind of players. Melo hasnt worked and that cant be navigated until he moves on. Too big a mistake. It just needs to be cut clean. If you read all this and you walk away with "fish loves Phil" you need to stop posting on message forums

It being time for Melo to go doesn't mean Phil did a good job with Melo or anything else. And again the guy who supposedly learned back in the 80s that "leopards don't change their spots" is the guy who not only signed Melo but gave him a NTC which may still make him impossible to move this summer. Okay, so it's time to move on from Melo - you really trust Phil as the guy to do it?

Also, I've never been able to get around this part. You say Melo is about Melo, only cares about himself not the team.

What would you call Phil caring about the triangle more than winning a championship? That's what he's here for. He doesn't have some abstract notion of "caring about the team" that fans love to bring up - this is a billion dollar business by the way, not fantasy land - but Phil has made clear he puts winning WITH the triangle over winning. How is he not a selfish, me-first ego guy. I think he is. I'm sorta mystified you guys can't see it.

This is very simple. Phil knows one way to win in the league and that is playing system basketball. His belief is that the system combined with talent is the key to long term and high level success. Talent without the system isnt enough, and yes, the system must come first because if the talent doesnt fit its doesnt make sense to have on the roster. So while all you WANT to hear is Phil saying its all about the triangle before team, winning, etc.. the triangle IS those things.

Yes, Phil is an ego maniac. He had to sell his system to Micheal Jordan. He had to get two guys who hated each other player TOGETHER in his system in Shaq/Kobe. It takes a huge ego to impress your will on those situations and win. So yes... the triangle or any system that promotes defense, passing and team play is going to come first, because without that you got nothing.

Do I trust Phil? No. I dont trust any exec in the MSG environment. I do think Phil has the right ideas, but his implementation of those ideas has been very poor. Sound plan, poor execution.

Moving forward? Trusting Phil isnt the right word, but we have an exec with 2 years left. He's coached teams to 11 titles so he knows what is needed to win. He now gets to put his next team together with Dolan "staying out of it" and assuming he can trade Melo no players on the roster with agendas or juice cards bigger than than the team. I am very curious how that plays out. Trust Phil? No... but its time for the draft and FA so hope is eternal.

People read more hands on and they hear meddling and undermining. Its Phil's challenge to use his wealth of knowledge about the game to aid the Knicks without doing those things. He's had 3 years to figure out where he's most needed. I am willing to see what that translates too. If the KNicks cant turn this around Phil wont be back. Hopefully he doesnt do anything stupid to try for a win now splash, but I dont think he will. I think he would rather suck for 5 years, stick to his "type" of players and move along after 5 years. Smug? Ego? Oh you bet... if the Knicks started to take off post-Phil with the guys he drafted can you see a "your welcome" tweet from him?

crzymdups wrote:Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era.

I still don't get this statement. Please substantiate. I literally don't understand what it means that this system is for another era.

What makes this hold water? What is your understanding of the Triangle system such that it is outdated and by extension will not work?

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Great coach's have great players.
Riles, Pop, Auerback all were excel with LONG careers as coach, and even as Execs.
Maybe pHil never gets it done, he was bought here to turn the franchise around.
After three years some of you can't fathom anything but what is in front of you.
Knicks with melo treaded water, three seasons, only one of our own draft picks.
Had to clean the mess up. Its taking longer. Future uncertain, panic stricken few fans who are in a tizz over the truth.

Some of you wanted the truth, and you can't handle it. Teams sucks. Melo holds the Ball, KP is not ready, a few bad trades, and again, sell the team and bring in some conceptual young guy that will do what again?

Enjoy the weather, watch a playoff game, go for a walk, and stop trying to find some conceptual truth in connecting the dots that somehow Phil is going away.

he is not.

Great executives bring in great players. They bring in coaches they believe in and try to get them players that fit what the coach is trying to do. They help to bring a stability to an organization and create a culture. Phil isn't the coach. He has brought in one great player when his team accidentally tanked. Phil hasn't believed in his coaches enough to not meddle and undermine them. There hasn't been a consistent coach or voice in the locker room. He has had four coaches and turned over the majority of the roster every year. There is no stability and no culture for the Knicks. Phil has been really bad at his job as an executive.

this is certainly the ugly phase. Not many teams going through something like this are going to talking about how all the positives adding up from all the losing.

As a Knick fan I have no loyalty to Melo. He has been about Melo first and foremost and above all else. He is certainly responsible for the only blip of good basketball played here (the always mentioned and coveted 54 win season).

The rest of the time? Melo quit on coaches. Melo put himself over team constantly. Probably Melo's best teammates he's had here were Lin and Tyson, two guys who walked away not exactly enamored with Melo.

Yup.. Melo is an NBA buddy. Everyone loves him. Everyone respects Melo. Players union loves him. He's been paid $200mm in the NBA. He's advanced in the playoffs twice. Everyone loves him until it comes time to sign a contract and play with him. Then the loves moves from Chris Paul and Lebron to the Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee types of league.

Of course much of the team is backing Melo, and of course a switch back to the triangle is going to look bad and not be well recieved. Also if the players can point to the front office and their issues it removes responsibility. Thats is normal in ANY work environment. If you are in sales and your management team sucks and your numbers suck you are going to say "how can I perform like this?"

That is the way the world turns.

I love all the posts "I cant wait to see how the Phil supporters... bla bla bla spin this."

There is no spin. Nothing Phil has done here has worked out, except drafting a couple good players. So does letting him stay equate support? Is that how Phil love is quantified? Whether its a deserving title or not Melo is an NBA star and he's been knocked by his own organization. Melo is going to seek allies. Just like your office mates, you talk to them move than anyone. IF you are popular and networked you will have opportunities to spin things, leak things, gain support, play politics...

Those things would be fine, but this relationship isnt worth salvaging. Melo doesnt defend, doesnt pass and to boot isnt the scorer he once was. The days of him being the main cog on an annual playoff team are long gone. He is a supporting player, but he acts like THE player.

Phil has phucked up left and right, but I want to see what this thing looks like without this personality to manage. Maybe its 2 more years of fumbling and if so Phil get canned, the next GM resigns the talent and we move forward. If after 5 years Phil did nothing but lose enough to build us up a core of good players I can live with that. I think we and Phil can do much better and *hope* we do, but its not happening with a diva here to that puts his brand first and to boot doesnt produce on the court.

Crzy mentioned Chris Paul and why doesnt he get knocked for failing in the playoffs. Did you see the game he had in the game 1 loss? The guy performs regardless. I think Phil is looking at the right kind of players. Melo hasnt worked and that cant be navigated until he moves on. Too big a mistake. It just needs to be cut clean. If you read all this and you walk away with "fish loves Phil" you need to stop posting on message forums

It being time for Melo to go doesn't mean Phil did a good job with Melo or anything else. And again the guy who supposedly learned back in the 80s that "leopards don't change their spots" is the guy who not only signed Melo but gave him a NTC which may still make him impossible to move this summer. Okay, so it's time to move on from Melo - you really trust Phil as the guy to do it?

Also, I've never been able to get around this part. You say Melo is about Melo, only cares about himself not the team.

What would you call Phil caring about the triangle more than winning a championship? That's what he's here for. He doesn't have some abstract notion of "caring about the team" that fans love to bring up - this is a billion dollar business by the way, not fantasy land - but Phil has made clear he puts winning WITH the triangle over winning. How is he not a selfish, me-first ego guy. I think he is. I'm sorta mystified you guys can't see it.

What is wrong with having a system you know inside and out? A system you had success with over decades and with different players. That is his base and how he wants the team to play but he's also been open to the changes Jeff has made. The notion that Jeff isn't doing what he wants is false. Just watch the game videos and most of what the Knicks are doing isn't old school Triangle.

I defy anyone to prove Jeff isn't being allowed to coach and use his own ideas. Jeff seems to have agreed that the Triangle fundamentals were needed to help the team have some structure but Phil does approve of Jeff's schemes on Early Motion Offense. They seem to be working well together.

My god. You're posting this in a thread that started with a report that Phil demanded a return to the Triangle, and I quote, "A system the coaches don't want to run and the players don't want to play."

Your proof Jeff isn't being allowed to coach and use his own ideas comes from the NBA's preeminent reporter and it is in the first post of this thread.

Later in the season the team really got the hang of what Jeff's blended offense is. Phil was approving of that style of play which if you were watching the games was not PURE Triangle. Now if you can break down something that would indicate Jeff was running PURE Triangle i'd like to see it cuz I know what I was watching.

Here is a complete game highlights video from after the move to add more work on Triangle. You watch and try to count the number of Side Triangle looks they ran. Pay attention to the Majority of the scoring and how they did it and see if that looks like Pure Triangle to you.

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era.

I still don't get this statement. Please substantiate. I literally don't understand what it means that this system is for another era.

What makes this hold water? What is your understanding of the Triangle system such that it is outdated and by extension will not work?

Because it involves very specific spacing that does not account for a three point line, because it was invented before the three point line existed. You act like I'm making this up, but Woj called the system archaic. It also involves very specific personnel to be on the floor for "floor balance" - that was also invented for a different era. What makes it hold water is the way the rest of the league plays.

You just posted fluff. Nothing, Nada.

Give me facts and not just what you think is or should be happening. Here is 3pt attempts per 100 possessions and how they rank. It's obvious that the Triangle, as compared to the rest of the league, was a leader in shooting 3pointers as a portion of their offense. I've posted this before:

Phil's Lakers teams shot a larger portion of 3pt shots than most teams in the league at the time.
2006-07: 5th http://on.nba.com/2kNttQw
2007-08: 7th http://on.nba.com/2maGyoi
2008-09: 15th http://on.nba.com/2maIf51
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2kNlZwW
2010-11: 12th http://on.nba.com/2kNnJ9l

Pop's team over the past 3 seasons has shot a diminishing portion of 3pt shots than the rest of the league. This past year they are 25th. DOES HE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ANALYTICS OR MODERN BASKETBALL IS?!?!?!?!
2013-14: 15th http://on.nba.com/2lgsvJT
2014-15: 15th http://on.nba.com/2kNm8kb
2015-16: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kNuXKu
2016-17: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kzInG4

You can start here:
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/#!?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per100Possessions

So the other part of advanced/modern stats tell us that Points in the Paint SHOULD be another emphasis with team offenses, right:

2014-15: http://on.nba.com/2jnZ0Iy SA #11th, GS #14, CLE #25
2015-16: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #16th, GS #25, CLE #23
2016-17: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #27th, GS #21, CLE #29

Lakers:
2006-07: 14th http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru
2007-08: 14th http://on.nba.com/2nH79s2
2008-09: 3rd http://on.nba.com/2ptNKd3
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2pu865Z

Let me know what your gut is telling you.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Great coach's have great players.
Riles, Pop, Auerback all were excel with LONG careers as coach, and even as Execs.
Maybe pHil never gets it done, he was bought here to turn the franchise around.
After three years some of you can't fathom anything but what is in front of you.
Knicks with melo treaded water, three seasons, only one of our own draft picks.
Had to clean the mess up. Its taking longer. Future uncertain, panic stricken few fans who are in a tizz over the truth.

Some of you wanted the truth, and you can't handle it. Teams sucks. Melo holds the Ball, KP is not ready, a few bad trades, and again, sell the team and bring in some conceptual young guy that will do what again?

Enjoy the weather, watch a playoff game, go for a walk, and stop trying to find some conceptual truth in connecting the dots that somehow Phil is going away.

he is not.

Great executives bring in great players. They bring in coaches they believe in and try to get them players that fit what the coach is trying to do. They help to bring a stability to an organization and create a culture. Phil isn't the coach. He has brought in one great player when his team accidentally tanked. Phil hasn't believed in his coaches enough to not meddle and undermine them. There hasn't been a consistent coach or voice in the locker room. He has had four coaches and turned over the majority of the roster every year. There is no stability and no culture for the Knicks. Phil has been really bad at his job as an executive.

this is certainly the ugly phase. Not many teams going through something like this are going to talking about how all the positives adding up from all the losing.

As a Knick fan I have no loyalty to Melo. He has been about Melo first and foremost and above all else. He is certainly responsible for the only blip of good basketball played here (the always mentioned and coveted 54 win season).

The rest of the time? Melo quit on coaches. Melo put himself over team constantly. Probably Melo's best teammates he's had here were Lin and Tyson, two guys who walked away not exactly enamored with Melo.

Yup.. Melo is an NBA buddy. Everyone loves him. Everyone respects Melo. Players union loves him. He's been paid $200mm in the NBA. He's advanced in the playoffs twice. Everyone loves him until it comes time to sign a contract and play with him. Then the loves moves from Chris Paul and Lebron to the Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee types of league.

Of course much of the team is backing Melo, and of course a switch back to the triangle is going to look bad and not be well recieved. Also if the players can point to the front office and their issues it removes responsibility. Thats is normal in ANY work environment. If you are in sales and your management team sucks and your numbers suck you are going to say "how can I perform like this?"

That is the way the world turns.

I love all the posts "I cant wait to see how the Phil supporters... bla bla bla spin this."

There is no spin. Nothing Phil has done here has worked out, except drafting a couple good players. So does letting him stay equate support? Is that how Phil love is quantified? Whether its a deserving title or not Melo is an NBA star and he's been knocked by his own organization. Melo is going to seek allies. Just like your office mates, you talk to them move than anyone. IF you are popular and networked you will have opportunities to spin things, leak things, gain support, play politics...

Those things would be fine, but this relationship isnt worth salvaging. Melo doesnt defend, doesnt pass and to boot isnt the scorer he once was. The days of him being the main cog on an annual playoff team are long gone. He is a supporting player, but he acts like THE player.

Phil has phucked up left and right, but I want to see what this thing looks like without this personality to manage. Maybe its 2 more years of fumbling and if so Phil get canned, the next GM resigns the talent and we move forward. If after 5 years Phil did nothing but lose enough to build us up a core of good players I can live with that. I think we and Phil can do much better and *hope* we do, but its not happening with a diva here to that puts his brand first and to boot doesnt produce on the court.

Crzy mentioned Chris Paul and why doesnt he get knocked for failing in the playoffs. Did you see the game he had in the game 1 loss? The guy performs regardless. I think Phil is looking at the right kind of players. Melo hasnt worked and that cant be navigated until he moves on. Too big a mistake. It just needs to be cut clean. If you read all this and you walk away with "fish loves Phil" you need to stop posting on message forums

It being time for Melo to go doesn't mean Phil did a good job with Melo or anything else. And again the guy who supposedly learned back in the 80s that "leopards don't change their spots" is the guy who not only signed Melo but gave him a NTC which may still make him impossible to move this summer. Okay, so it's time to move on from Melo - you really trust Phil as the guy to do it?

Also, I've never been able to get around this part. You say Melo is about Melo, only cares about himself not the team.

What would you call Phil caring about the triangle more than winning a championship? That's what he's here for. He doesn't have some abstract notion of "caring about the team" that fans love to bring up - this is a billion dollar business by the way, not fantasy land - but Phil has made clear he puts winning WITH the triangle over winning. How is he not a selfish, me-first ego guy. I think he is. I'm sorta mystified you guys can't see it.

well your mystfied because you cant see the forest through the trees here. Phil won 11 rings. Phil has won more titles than anyone in the NBA. He did so with a few different casts and teams playing variations of the same system. The key being system because the Bulls triangle and Lakers was not the same. Heck it wasnt the same with Rodman vs. the others who could shoot.

This is very simple. Phil knows one way to win in the league and that is playing system basketball. His belief is that the system combined with talent is the key to long term and high level success. Talent without the system isnt enough, and yes, the system must come first because if the talent doesnt fit its doesnt make sense to have on the roster. So while all you WANT to hear is Phil saying its all about the triangle before team, winning, etc.. the triangle IS those things.

Yes, Phil is an ego maniac. He had to sell his system to Micheal Jordan. He had to get two guys who hated each other player TOGETHER in his system in Shaq/Kobe. It takes a huge ego to impress your will on those situations and win. So yes... the triangle or any system that promotes defense, passing and team play is going to come first, because without that you got nothing.

Do I trust Phil? No. I dont trust any exec in the MSG environment. I do think Phil has the right ideas, but his implementation of those ideas has been very poor. Sound plan, poor execution.

Moving forward? Trusting Phil isnt the right word, but we have an exec with 2 years left. He's coached teams to 11 titles so he knows what is needed to win. He now gets to put his next team together with Dolan "staying out of it" and assuming he can trade Melo no players on the roster with agendas or juice cards bigger than than the team. I am very curious how that plays out. Trust Phil? No... but its time for the draft and FA so hope is eternal.

People read more hands on and they hear meddling and undermining. Its Phil's challenge to use his wealth of knowledge about the game to aid the Knicks without doing those things. He's had 3 years to figure out where he's most needed. I am willing to see what that translates too. If the KNicks cant turn this around Phil wont be back. Hopefully he doesnt do anything stupid to try for a win now splash, but I dont think he will. I think he would rather suck for 5 years, stick to his "type" of players and move along after 5 years. Smug? Ego? Oh you bet... if the Knicks started to take off post-Phil with the guys he drafted can you see a "your welcome" tweet from him?

But the system never came first in Phil's previous situations. He inherited veteran teams that already had two top ten players in place and took them to the next level. The Bulls made the conference finals right before Phil took over. The Lakers didn't but they had Rambis coaching and people around the league thought they underachieved and Kobe was still coming into his own. Shaq was by far the most dominant player in the league.

Phil has never built a team. Jerry west built those Lakers. Jerry Krause built those Bulls. Sure he suggested some role players to supplement the foundation - and that's basically all he's been able to do in New York. Except our foundation is busted. Melo is not enough of a foundation on his own. KP is not ready to be the foundation.

He's doing something he's never done before, at 70+ in years and in a league that has changed massively over the past five years. Evidence? The league as a whole shoots twice as many threes as it did the last time Phil coached in 2010. He still calls it a "cheap shot." He's wrong. This year we had a point guard average a triple double for the first time in the modern era. The rules have evolved, the game has evolved.

Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era. And you know why he came here? Because there were already whispers that the Triangle was overrated as the reason those superstar laden Bulls and Lakers teams won. And Phil came here deadset on proving the triangle was the reason they won. I have no interest in this old man's quest for personal vindication. I could run through the list of decisions he's made that were more about the triangle than the Knicks winning. But you already know what they are.

You're right about one thing - in two years his contract is up. What then? You really think the Knicks will be home to the triangle in perpetuity? I don't. So we're wasting the next two years of KP's development, teaching him a system he won't use again. And it's gotten to the point where KP is so frustrated he won't even speak to Phil. Seem like a good sign? Doesn't seem that way to me.

Phil admitted he has no expectation of winning here in his last two years. It is obvious that he only cares about proving the triangle works. I can't believe you dudes are on board for this narcissist's ego trip. Fuck Phil. I'm done with his quest for personal validation. I want the Knicks to be good. There's a lot of evidence that the triangle will have nothing to do with that.

Phil has said he doesnt expect to compete for a title while here because as you mentioned he knows and understands the value of continuity and having that core of players together that he was able to inherit. Thats the hard part isnt it?

Your focus on the triangle is just your brain picking something to focus on now that you have decided to hate Phil and want him gone. I get it. Phil has not been good. Give me any losing team in the NBA and you can pick apart the failings, the systems, etc. But all these posts... are you having both ends of the conversation.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Great coach's have great players.
Riles, Pop, Auerback all were excel with LONG careers as coach, and even as Execs.
Maybe pHil never gets it done, he was bought here to turn the franchise around.
After three years some of you can't fathom anything but what is in front of you.
Knicks with melo treaded water, three seasons, only one of our own draft picks.
Had to clean the mess up. Its taking longer. Future uncertain, panic stricken few fans who are in a tizz over the truth.

Some of you wanted the truth, and you can't handle it. Teams sucks. Melo holds the Ball, KP is not ready, a few bad trades, and again, sell the team and bring in some conceptual young guy that will do what again?

Enjoy the weather, watch a playoff game, go for a walk, and stop trying to find some conceptual truth in connecting the dots that somehow Phil is going away.

he is not.

Great executives bring in great players. They bring in coaches they believe in and try to get them players that fit what the coach is trying to do. They help to bring a stability to an organization and create a culture. Phil isn't the coach. He has brought in one great player when his team accidentally tanked. Phil hasn't believed in his coaches enough to not meddle and undermine them. There hasn't been a consistent coach or voice in the locker room. He has had four coaches and turned over the majority of the roster every year. There is no stability and no culture for the Knicks. Phil has been really bad at his job as an executive.

this is certainly the ugly phase. Not many teams going through something like this are going to talking about how all the positives adding up from all the losing.

As a Knick fan I have no loyalty to Melo. He has been about Melo first and foremost and above all else. He is certainly responsible for the only blip of good basketball played here (the always mentioned and coveted 54 win season).

The rest of the time? Melo quit on coaches. Melo put himself over team constantly. Probably Melo's best teammates he's had here were Lin and Tyson, two guys who walked away not exactly enamored with Melo.

Yup.. Melo is an NBA buddy. Everyone loves him. Everyone respects Melo. Players union loves him. He's been paid $200mm in the NBA. He's advanced in the playoffs twice. Everyone loves him until it comes time to sign a contract and play with him. Then the loves moves from Chris Paul and Lebron to the Robin Lopez and Courtney Lee types of league.

Of course much of the team is backing Melo, and of course a switch back to the triangle is going to look bad and not be well recieved. Also if the players can point to the front office and their issues it removes responsibility. Thats is normal in ANY work environment. If you are in sales and your management team sucks and your numbers suck you are going to say "how can I perform like this?"

That is the way the world turns.

I love all the posts "I cant wait to see how the Phil supporters... bla bla bla spin this."

There is no spin. Nothing Phil has done here has worked out, except drafting a couple good players. So does letting him stay equate support? Is that how Phil love is quantified? Whether its a deserving title or not Melo is an NBA star and he's been knocked by his own organization. Melo is going to seek allies. Just like your office mates, you talk to them move than anyone. IF you are popular and networked you will have opportunities to spin things, leak things, gain support, play politics...

Those things would be fine, but this relationship isnt worth salvaging. Melo doesnt defend, doesnt pass and to boot isnt the scorer he once was. The days of him being the main cog on an annual playoff team are long gone. He is a supporting player, but he acts like THE player.

Phil has phucked up left and right, but I want to see what this thing looks like without this personality to manage. Maybe its 2 more years of fumbling and if so Phil get canned, the next GM resigns the talent and we move forward. If after 5 years Phil did nothing but lose enough to build us up a core of good players I can live with that. I think we and Phil can do much better and *hope* we do, but its not happening with a diva here to that puts his brand first and to boot doesnt produce on the court.

Crzy mentioned Chris Paul and why doesnt he get knocked for failing in the playoffs. Did you see the game he had in the game 1 loss? The guy performs regardless. I think Phil is looking at the right kind of players. Melo hasnt worked and that cant be navigated until he moves on. Too big a mistake. It just needs to be cut clean. If you read all this and you walk away with "fish loves Phil" you need to stop posting on message forums

It being time for Melo to go doesn't mean Phil did a good job with Melo or anything else. And again the guy who supposedly learned back in the 80s that "leopards don't change their spots" is the guy who not only signed Melo but gave him a NTC which may still make him impossible to move this summer. Okay, so it's time to move on from Melo - you really trust Phil as the guy to do it?

Also, I've never been able to get around this part. You say Melo is about Melo, only cares about himself not the team.

What would you call Phil caring about the triangle more than winning a championship? That's what he's here for. He doesn't have some abstract notion of "caring about the team" that fans love to bring up - this is a billion dollar business by the way, not fantasy land - but Phil has made clear he puts winning WITH the triangle over winning. How is he not a selfish, me-first ego guy. I think he is. I'm sorta mystified you guys can't see it.

well your mystfied because you cant see the forest through the trees here. Phil won 11 rings. Phil has won more titles than anyone in the NBA. He did so with a few different casts and teams playing variations of the same system. The key being system because the Bulls triangle and Lakers was not the same. Heck it wasnt the same with Rodman vs. the others who could shoot.

This is very simple. Phil knows one way to win in the league and that is playing system basketball. His belief is that the system combined with talent is the key to long term and high level success. Talent without the system isnt enough, and yes, the system must come first because if the talent doesnt fit its doesnt make sense to have on the roster. So while all you WANT to hear is Phil saying its all about the triangle before team, winning, etc.. the triangle IS those things.

Yes, Phil is an ego maniac. He had to sell his system to Micheal Jordan. He had to get two guys who hated each other player TOGETHER in his system in Shaq/Kobe. It takes a huge ego to impress your will on those situations and win. So yes... the triangle or any system that promotes defense, passing and team play is going to come first, because without that you got nothing.

Do I trust Phil? No. I dont trust any exec in the MSG environment. I do think Phil has the right ideas, but his implementation of those ideas has been very poor. Sound plan, poor execution.

Moving forward? Trusting Phil isnt the right word, but we have an exec with 2 years left. He's coached teams to 11 titles so he knows what is needed to win. He now gets to put his next team together with Dolan "staying out of it" and assuming he can trade Melo no players on the roster with agendas or juice cards bigger than than the team. I am very curious how that plays out. Trust Phil? No... but its time for the draft and FA so hope is eternal.

People read more hands on and they hear meddling and undermining. Its Phil's challenge to use his wealth of knowledge about the game to aid the Knicks without doing those things. He's had 3 years to figure out where he's most needed. I am willing to see what that translates too. If the KNicks cant turn this around Phil wont be back. Hopefully he doesnt do anything stupid to try for a win now splash, but I dont think he will. I think he would rather suck for 5 years, stick to his "type" of players and move along after 5 years. Smug? Ego? Oh you bet... if the Knicks started to take off post-Phil with the guys he drafted can you see a "your welcome" tweet from him?

But the system never came first in Phil's previous situations. He inherited veteran teams that already had two top ten players in place and took them to the next level. The Bulls made the conference finals right before Phil took over. The Lakers didn't but they had Rambis coaching and people around the league thought they underachieved and Kobe was still coming into his own. Shaq was by far the most dominant player in the league.

Phil has never built a team. Jerry west built those Lakers. Jerry Krause built those Bulls. Sure he suggested some role players to supplement the foundation - and that's basically all he's been able to do in New York. Except our foundation is busted. Melo is not enough of a foundation on his own. KP is not ready to be the foundation.

He's doing something he's never done before, at 70+ in years and in a league that has changed massively over the past five years. Evidence? The league as a whole shoots twice as many threes as it did the last time Phil coached in 2010. He still calls it a "cheap shot." He's wrong. This year we had a point guard average a triple double for the first time in the modern era. The rules have evolved, the game has evolved.

Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era. And you know why he came here? Because there were already whispers that the Triangle was overrated as the reason those superstar laden Bulls and Lakers teams won. And Phil came here deadset on proving the triangle was the reason they won. I have no interest in this old man's quest for personal vindication. I could run through the list of decisions he's made that were more about the triangle than the Knicks winning. But you already know what they are.

You're right about one thing - in two years his contract is up. What then? You really think the Knicks will be home to the triangle in perpetuity? I don't. So we're wasting the next two years of KP's development, teaching him a system he won't use again. And it's gotten to the point where KP is so frustrated he won't even speak to Phil. Seem like a good sign? Doesn't seem that way to me.

Phil admitted he has no expectation of winning here in his last two years. It is obvious that he only cares about proving the triangle works. I can't believe you dudes are on board for this narcissist's ego trip. Fuck Phil. I'm done with his quest for personal validation. I want the Knicks to be good. There's a lot of evidence that the triangle will have nothing to do with that.

No there isnt. Lots of evidence is in 13 years prior to Phil the Knicks have averaged 33 wins a season. Rudderless and direction free. It has always been about players, stars and glitz first. Wins and team are not as important.

Phil has said he doesnt expect to compete for a title while here because as you mentioned he knows and understands the value of continuity and having that core of players together that he was able to inherit. Thats the hard part isnt it?

Your focus on the triangle is just your brain picking something to focus on now that you have decided to hate Phil and want him gone. I get it. Phil has not been good. Give me any losing team in the NBA and you can pick apart the failings, the systems, etc. But all these posts... are you having both ends of the conversation.

My god, dude. You act like I'm inventing this. I'm not Woj. I didn't write the article in this thread that says the entire team hates the triangle. That says the coaching staff is mass confusion. I feel like I'm arguing with my uncle who voted for Trump at this point. Facts are facts. Woj reported some. If you need to ignore them to enjoy your Knicks fandom, that's up to you. I'm really not interested in a conversation about how Woj didn't get guys to go on the record either. Believe what you need to believe to get through the day.

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era.

I still don't get this statement. Please substantiate. I literally don't understand what it means that this system is for another era.

What makes this hold water? What is your understanding of the Triangle system such that it is outdated and by extension will not work?

Because it involves very specific spacing that does not account for a three point line, because it was invented before the three point line existed. You act like I'm making this up, but Woj called the system archaic. It also involves very specific personnel to be on the floor for "floor balance" - that was also invented for a different era. What makes it hold water is the way the rest of the league plays.

You just posted fluff. Nothing, Nada.

Give me facts and not just what you think is or should be happening. Here is 3pt attempts per 100 possessions and how they rank. It's obvious that the Triangle, as compared to the rest of the league, was a leader in shooting 3pointers as a portion of their offense. I've posted this before:

Phil's Lakers teams shot a larger portion of 3pt shots than most teams in the league at the time.
2006-07: 5th http://on.nba.com/2kNttQw
2007-08: 7th http://on.nba.com/2maGyoi
2008-09: 15th http://on.nba.com/2maIf51
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2kNlZwW
2010-11: 12th http://on.nba.com/2kNnJ9l

Pop's team over the past 3 seasons has shot a diminishing portion of 3pt shots than the rest of the league. This past year they are 25th. DOES HE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ANALYTICS OR MODERN BASKETBALL IS?!?!?!?!
2013-14: 15th http://on.nba.com/2lgsvJT
2014-15: 15th http://on.nba.com/2kNm8kb
2015-16: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kNuXKu
2016-17: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kzInG4

You can start here:
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/#!?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per100Possessions

So the other part of advanced/modern stats tell us that Points in the Paint SHOULD be another emphasis with team offenses, right:

2014-15: http://on.nba.com/2jnZ0Iy SA #11th, GS #14, CLE #25
2015-16: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #16th, GS #25, CLE #23
2016-17: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #27th, GS #21, CLE #29

Lakers:
2006-07: 14th http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru
2007-08: 14th http://on.nba.com/2nH79s2
2008-09: 3rd http://on.nba.com/2ptNKd3
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2pu865Z

Let me know what your gut is telling you.

My gut is telling me we already had this exact conversation, Martin. And I looked up the numbers and refuted what you posted then. I'm not gonna do it again.

I missed it. Post it again. Cause I don't see it.

It's not in this thread. In this thread is a highly damning article which you are ignoring. I don't care about what Phil did as coach of some of the greatest players of all time. I care what he's doing to the Knicks, which is utter chaos that is destroying the team.

If you want to spew out fluff, have at it.

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Phil is stuck trying to validate a system designed for another era.

I still don't get this statement. Please substantiate. I literally don't understand what it means that this system is for another era.

What makes this hold water? What is your understanding of the Triangle system such that it is outdated and by extension will not work?

Because it involves very specific spacing that does not account for a three point line, because it was invented before the three point line existed. You act like I'm making this up, but Woj called the system archaic. It also involves very specific personnel to be on the floor for "floor balance" - that was also invented for a different era. What makes it hold water is the way the rest of the league plays.

You just posted fluff. Nothing, Nada.

Give me facts and not just what you think is or should be happening. Here is 3pt attempts per 100 possessions and how they rank. It's obvious that the Triangle, as compared to the rest of the league, was a leader in shooting 3pointers as a portion of their offense. I've posted this before:

Phil's Lakers teams shot a larger portion of 3pt shots than most teams in the league at the time.
2006-07: 5th http://on.nba.com/2kNttQw
2007-08: 7th http://on.nba.com/2maGyoi
2008-09: 15th http://on.nba.com/2maIf51
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2kNlZwW
2010-11: 12th http://on.nba.com/2kNnJ9l

Pop's team over the past 3 seasons has shot a diminishing portion of 3pt shots than the rest of the league. This past year they are 25th. DOES HE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ANALYTICS OR MODERN BASKETBALL IS?!?!?!?!
2013-14: 15th http://on.nba.com/2lgsvJT
2014-15: 15th http://on.nba.com/2kNm8kb
2015-16: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kNuXKu
2016-17: 25th http://on.nba.com/2kzInG4

You can start here:
http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/#!?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per100Possessions

So the other part of advanced/modern stats tell us that Points in the Paint SHOULD be another emphasis with team offenses, right:

2014-15: http://on.nba.com/2jnZ0Iy SA #11th, GS #14, CLE #25
2015-16: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #16th, GS #25, CLE #23
2016-17: http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru SA #27th, GS #21, CLE #29

Lakers:
2006-07: 14th http://on.nba.com/2pu3Jru
2007-08: 14th http://on.nba.com/2nH79s2
2008-09: 3rd http://on.nba.com/2ptNKd3
2009-10: 11th http://on.nba.com/2pu865Z

Let me know what your gut is telling you.

My gut is telling me we already had this exact conversation, Martin. And I looked up the numbers and refuted what you posted then. I'm not gonna do it again.

I missed it. Post it again. Cause I don't see it.

It's not in this thread. In this thread is a highly damning article which you are ignoring. I don't care about what Phil did as coach of some of the greatest players of all time. I care what he's doing to the Knicks, which is utter chaos that is destroying the team.

If you want to spew out fluff, have at it.

so you have absolutely no defense of Phil the executive? Didn't think so.