CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

I don't know it but the Butler comment certainly implies that Hoiberg wasn't taking on the role of an authority figure. What did you base your, 'I am sure Hoiberg tried his azz off'comment on?

because Hoiberg hates those stupid shots. But you are probably right to base it all off that jimmy b comment.

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

I don't know it but the Butler comment certainly implies that Hoiberg wasn't taking on the role of an authority figure. What did you base your, 'I am sure Hoiberg tried his azz off'comment on?

because Hoiberg hates those stupid shots. But you are probably right to base it all off that jimmy b comment.

I could make assumptions but I think quotes from someone involved in the situation carry more weight. It certainly wasnt a smooth transition from Thibs to Hoiberg.

no ... thats grasping and Butler said nothing about Hoiberg not being vocal about Rose taking inefficient shots.

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

I don't know it but the Butler comment certainly implies that Hoiberg wasn't taking on the role of an authority figure. What did you base your, 'I am sure Hoiberg tried his azz off'comment on?

because Hoiberg hates those stupid shots. But you are probably right to base it all off that jimmy b comment.

I could make assumptions but I think quotes from someone involved in the situation carry more weight. It certainly wasnt a smooth transition from Thibs to Hoiberg.

no ... thats grasping and Butler said nothing about Hoiberg not being vocal about Rose taking inefficient shots.

He said, 'when guys aren't doing what they are supposed to do you gotta get on guys'. Either Rose was supposed to be taking those shots or Butler felt that Hoiberg needed to handle the situation. Either way nothing there to back the assumption that Hoiberg busted his azz to get Rose to stop taking the shots.

btw, reinsdorf said today that they needed to trade rose to get a REAL starting center ... Noah was just not cutting it. I GUESS REINSDORF KNOWS BEING AN INSIDER ... lmao

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Have to look at it this way with regards to Rose.

Last year we had Jose or Gallo or Grant bringing up the ball and trying to attack a defense.
Now it's going to be Rose.

No matter what level Rose was once at and how far away he may be from that peak level, I think it's safe to say his skill level and ability to just drive past defenses gives us a constant dribble penetration threat, one that we just did not have at all last year.

From my perspective it's not about Rose needing to play like a MVP. It's about Rose playing like a 15 points a night, 5 dimes a night 3rd option point guard. Someone that balances our team a bit more, seeming as that our top 2 scorers are forwards in Melo and Porzingis. Having a guard that could do what Rose can was vital for Melo/KP. Our best attacking/creating guard last year was Afflalo, and I fully believe that Rose should be an upgrade over them.

agreed for the most part. he shouldn't try to play like the mvp-- he didn't deserve it anyway but that's nba marketing for you-- since he is ineffective if not terrible unless on two days' rest. better for him to limit his game to pushing the ball on breaks-- the knicks were among the worst if not the absolute worst in that category. where i differ with you is and in the half-court: he really needs to be more selective on when to drive since he has lost athleticism and will not be able to finish like people fantasize he still can. i foresee opponents' strategizing very simply for him by simply funneling him to the shotblockers. he also needs to cut down on these bad, difficult, trick shots... shots like the floater/teardrops, the fadeaway bankers from the left side, etc. etc. etc.

bottom line: if he ends up with a usage rate of above 25% while taking more than 14 shots a game, that will be a recipe for underachievement.

You keep saying that Rose has lost athleticism and can't finish but I don't believe that Rose will have trouble scoring at the rim. Rose compared with the other Top players in Points scored off Drives Per Game looks to be at an elite level.

Player	          Team	GP  W  L  MIN	DRIVES	FGM FGA	 FG%   FTM FTA FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS PASS% AST  AST%  TO	 TO%  PF  PF%
DeMar DeRozan     TOR	77  52 25 35.9	11.6	2.9 5.8	 50.6  2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7  74.4  3.7  31.4  0.9  8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40 35 35.7	9.8	2.7 5.5	 48.2  2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8  79.4  2.4  24.3  0.8  7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Isaiah Thomas     BOS	81  47 34 32.2	11.7	2.6 5.8	 45.4  2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6  65.2  3.8  32.7  1.0  8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43 36 30.7	10.6	3.0 6.1	 49.0  1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5  70.0  2.9  27.3  0.9  8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
James Harden      HOU	82  41 41 38.1	9.4	2.1 4.3	 49.6  2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2  76.6  2.5  26.5  0.9  9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55 25 34.4	10.1	2.4 4.8	 50.7  2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1  70.7  3.2  31.5  1.1  11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
LeBron James      CLE	76  56 20 35.6	9.2	2.6 4.8	 54.5  1.8 2.3 78.0 7.1  76.9  2.6  28.7  0.6  6.1   0.5 5.7  1.6 17.7
Jrue Holiday      NOP	65  27 38 28.2	9.8	2.7 5.3	 50.4  1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9  71.0  3.0  30.7  0.8  8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32 34 31.8	8.9	2.8 5.5	 51.0  1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1  23.3  0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37 16 31.5	8.9	2.7 5.3	 50.7  1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5  72.3  2.5  28.3  0.6  7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47 32 28.5	11.1	2.4 5.2	 45.7  1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4  57.5  4.0  36.3  0.9  8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS&dir=1

The only thing Rose needs to do is hit his teammates off penetration. This is something he's talked about wanting to do. So IMO I don't really see an issue here from Rose's standpoint. The other things that Rose has to increase are his 3pt shooting and getting to the line a bit more. Scoring off Drives was not a problem for Rose even in a down year.

Your idea that teams will simply Funnel Rose to Shotblockers sounds a bit strange given that Rose has been playing long enough that teams have tried all kinds of things and haven't been able to stop him. Why do you think you've figured out something no coach has been able to think off?

from 0-2 feet he shot 51%
from 3-9 feet he shot 42%
from 10-15 feet he shot 48%
from 16-3p feet he shot 41%

he should limit his shooting to either at the rim and 10-15 feet or midrange (which coincidentally is prime pick and roll range.) he also needs to get to the line more and be a better passer by not leaving his feet every time. by not leaving his feet he will be able to make better passes.

My point still stands. Rose was an elite player on drives to the rim. We didn't have that last year. I'm pretty sure Hornacek will talk to Rose about getting rid of the Long 2's and rather to take more 3's.

Just remember that this was a season marred by his early struggles after the Orbital Surgery. So the final numbers are skewed by the poor early performance. This is why I don't think we should base everything off last year's numbers as if that is the player we're likely to see next season. He should be better. More importantly this roster is fairly balanced and under Hornacek they should be a more aggressive and potent offensive team. It should be fun to watch.

I am sure that Hoiberg tried his azz off to get rose to not take stupid shots.

Also, 51% is horrible from 0-2 feet.

“I believe in the guys in this locker room, yeah, but I also believe that we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times,” Jimmy Butler said after scoring just 12 points on 4-for-11 shooting one night after he played 56 minutes against the Pistons. “I know Fred is a laidback guy and I respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you gotta get on guys, myself included. You gotta do what you’re supposed to do when you’re out there playing basketball.

“We weren’t doing what were supposed to be doing, what we wrote on that board before the game. Nobody spoke up. I did, but probably not enough times. I think he has to hold everybody accountable, from the No. 1 player, all the way down. Everyone has to do their job.”

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-calls-out-fred-hoiberg-following-bulls-loss

So you think that Hoiberg just was not strong enough with him and therefore he continued his stupid shot selection but Hornacek will get to him?

No. You said Hoiberg tried his azz off. I don't think he did.

how do you know that? from that butler comment?

Ok ... how about before hoiberg?

I don't know it but the Butler comment certainly implies that Hoiberg wasn't taking on the role of an authority figure. What did you base your, 'I am sure Hoiberg tried his azz off'comment on?

because Hoiberg hates those stupid shots. But you are probably right to base it all off that jimmy b comment.

I could make assumptions but I think quotes from someone involved in the situation carry more weight. It certainly wasnt a smooth transition from Thibs to Hoiberg.

no ... thats grasping and Butler said nothing about Hoiberg not being vocal about Rose taking inefficient shots.

He said, 'when guys aren't doing what they are supposed to do you gotta get on guys'. Either Rose was supposed to be taking those shots or Butler felt that Hoiberg needed to handle the situation. Either way nothing there to back the assumption that Hoiberg busted his azz to get Rose to stop taking the shots.

btw, reinsdorf said today that they needed to trade rose to get a REAL starting center ... Noah was just not cutting it. I GUESS REINSDORF KNOWS BEING AN INSIDER ... lmao

What does that have to do with the discussion? It doesn't change what Butler said or how Hoiberg handled the team. On a side note, thought you were a big Noah fan.

I am. A huge fan. What the heck is that relevance?

R. Jefferson 14:18 4-6 0-1 0-0 +7 0 1 1 0 1 3 3 0 1 8
M. Dellavedova 03:28 0-2 0-2 0-0 -5 0 0 0 0 3 0 2 0 1 0
I. Shumpert 25:41 2-4 0-1 0-0 +6 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 2 0 4
M. Williams 03:23 0-0 0-0 0-0 -3 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
T. Mozgov

HofstraBBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have been very much a proponent of the fact that the trajectory of Rose's game was trending up over the course of last season. He clearly was hampered by the effects of his Orbital Surgery but you could see he was getting his game back. IMO that is the Rose we're most likely to see rather than the one he started off the season as. This article does a great job of showing how Rose progressed over the season. There are graphs you should see in the original article.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2016/04/02/analytics-art-derrick-rose-bouncing-back-to-form-despite-bulls-meltdown/

He’s already played the most games in a season since 2010-11 this year, and staying healthy has allowed Rose to knock off years of rust. While he struggled throughout the first half of the season, he’s mostly shined since the All-Star break. In fact, his stats since All-Star Weekend are actually somewhat comparable to his MVP season.

After averaging 21.9 points, 6.0 assists and 5.6 rebounds throughout February, Rose has continued to play well via efficiency through March. In the “Shooting” tab within the visualization, you can see Rose was particularly dead-on from beyond the arc. He drained 40.5 percent of his attempts from distance in 15 games — significantly better than his career mark of just 30.4 percent from three-point territory.

That marksmanship from distance is unheard of for Rose, who has always been more of a slasher who uses his pure athletic talents to get to the bucket and score. But he’s reinvented himself of late by scoring with efficiency from inside and outside the arc.

Rose shot 40+ % from three for a decent stretch in feb and beginning of march. Do you think that this was possibly an anomaly or is his 30% career from 3 an anomaly? Pro's are not buying the Rose koolaid and want to see him prove it on the court this season. They are betting against him and they are not stupid.

Can he prove everyone wrong and the Rose for that stretch was the real Rose? That would be nice but I am not holding my breath.

What would be an acceptable line for Rose this year? in your opinion .

A WS48 of .100+ playing 30+ minutes a night. If he does that then he at least should not be benched.

And though there is no good metric for defense but instead of being from the worst in the league, let him be in the bottom 40% of guards.

Oh and one more thing ... this rape case has to go away.