fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2016/07/13/knicks-sign-maurice-ndour-guaranteed-contract

Report: Knicks sign Maurice Ndour to two-year guaranteed deal

The Knicks have signed Real Madrid forward Maurice Ndour to a two-year guaranteed deal, according to European basketball reporter David Pick.

Ndour, 24, last played for Real Madrid in Liga ACB, averaging 2.3 points and 1.8 rebounds in 9.6 minutes per game. He impressed the Knicks last year at Summer League in Las Vegas, scoring 23 points in a game against then-rookie Jahlil Okafor and the 76ers.

Following Summer League, Ndour signed a multi-year deal with the Mavericks, but was waived in October.

The signing of Ndour brings the Knicks to 14 players. He joins Joakim Noah, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn and Marshall Plumlee in the frontcourt.

On Tuesday, the team re-signed veteran guard Sasha Vujacic to a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum.

– Kenny Ducey

Two good signings this week. Never thought I would say that about Sasha returning, but for a year, and to help KP and the new rooks adjust to all the changes, its a smart move.

There is real balance. Its why I am very puzzled as some folks are saying this is an all in and PHil's plan totally changed and its all win now. NDour, Kuz, Willy, not sure if both Baker/Randle make the team, Plumlee... If you cant see a clear and concerted effort by this FO to continue to build towards the future WHILE fielding a team with the upside for a deep playoff run I just don't know what you are looking at.

Its because the starting roster is top heavy with older, frequently injured players now. Some of us here were happy to have the best frontcourt since Ewing/Oakley. As I pointed out before, even Mike Lupica who supported the Rose trade said it was a desperation move. Im glad there are some younger players in the pipeline, at the same time, I want to be sure that KP isn't surrounded by older, broken down players on bad deals when its time to re-up.

I keep hearing that Porzingis would never leave. I believe if we've learned anything from the Durant move, is anything can happen, especially with Dolan in charge. I dont want mgmt to get complacent about what the team will look like when its time for KP to make his decision. Those are legitimate concerns IMO considering this franchise's history under Dolan.

Have also made it clear that since Phil's sudden sense of urgency, I do like the moves he has made to fill out the roster.

I guess my retort is simple... do you still believe the bold? Because if you look at every move that followed the Rose deal it looks like the start of a calculated and well executed offseason. Phil hedged the health of Noah and Rose with Kuz, NDour, Willy and Plumlee... all prospects locked into 2 year deals. Then to ensure there is veteran depth Jennings, Lance and Sasha represent fantastic value in this market.

Hey, I didn't like the Rose deal either. But I did give it a wait and see. In the past that WAS the move. Now, that is just one thing that can go right. If that move fails there is upside to that as well. Big picture this was a hell of a job

Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player, looked like desperation to me. Rose could have been gotten next summer, who were we bidding against that we had to pull the trigger now?

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime. Was hoping for something more for a player who looked like an all star by the end of the season, on a great deal, and in his prime.

GustavBahler wrote:Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player...

Okay, you invited a comparison, Lopez and centers who recently signed $20m a year-ish contracts. Let's entertain that comparison further on the logical other side.

What recent trades for a player comparable to Lopez netted a first round pick or a better complimentary player?

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player...

Okay, you invited a comparison, Lopez and centers who recently signed $20m a year-ish contracts. Let's entertain that comparison further on the logical other side.

What recent trades for a player comparable to Lopez netted a first round pick or a better complimentary player?

We know that Mosgov got Denver two late #1s from the Cavs last year...is that "recent?"

Yup, that's fair.

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player...

Okay, you invited a comparison, Lopez and centers who recently signed $20m a year-ish contracts. Let's entertain that comparison further on the logical other side.

What recent trades for a player comparable to Lopez netted a first round pick or a better complimentary player?

Now that salaries are exploding, Lopez's bargain of a 12 million a year contract should have gotten us a better than just a second rounder. The part you left out of my quote was where I said that Phil should have gotten either a better draft pick a better player than Holiday. Wouldn't have traded Lopez for less especially since Rose could walk at the end of next season.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2016/07/13/knicks-sign-maurice-ndour-guaranteed-contract

Report: Knicks sign Maurice Ndour to two-year guaranteed deal

The Knicks have signed Real Madrid forward Maurice Ndour to a two-year guaranteed deal, according to European basketball reporter David Pick.

Ndour, 24, last played for Real Madrid in Liga ACB, averaging 2.3 points and 1.8 rebounds in 9.6 minutes per game. He impressed the Knicks last year at Summer League in Las Vegas, scoring 23 points in a game against then-rookie Jahlil Okafor and the 76ers.

Following Summer League, Ndour signed a multi-year deal with the Mavericks, but was waived in October.

The signing of Ndour brings the Knicks to 14 players. He joins Joakim Noah, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn and Marshall Plumlee in the frontcourt.

On Tuesday, the team re-signed veteran guard Sasha Vujacic to a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum.

– Kenny Ducey

Two good signings this week. Never thought I would say that about Sasha returning, but for a year, and to help KP and the new rooks adjust to all the changes, its a smart move.

There is real balance. Its why I am very puzzled as some folks are saying this is an all in and PHil's plan totally changed and its all win now. NDour, Kuz, Willy, not sure if both Baker/Randle make the team, Plumlee... If you cant see a clear and concerted effort by this FO to continue to build towards the future WHILE fielding a team with the upside for a deep playoff run I just don't know what you are looking at.

Its because the starting roster is top heavy with older, frequently injured players now. Some of us here were happy to have the best frontcourt since Ewing/Oakley. As I pointed out before, even Mike Lupica who supported the Rose trade said it was a desperation move. Im glad there are some younger players in the pipeline, at the same time, I want to be sure that KP isn't surrounded by older, broken down players on bad deals when its time to re-up.

I keep hearing that Porzingis would never leave. I believe if we've learned anything from the Durant move, is anything can happen, especially with Dolan in charge. I dont want mgmt to get complacent about what the team will look like when its time for KP to make his decision. Those are legitimate concerns IMO considering this franchise's history under Dolan.

Have also made it clear that since Phil's sudden sense of urgency, I do like the moves he has made to fill out the roster.

I guess my retort is simple... do you still believe the bold? Because if you look at every move that followed the Rose deal it looks like the start of a calculated and well executed offseason. Phil hedged the health of Noah and Rose with Kuz, NDour, Willy and Plumlee... all prospects locked into 2 year deals. Then to ensure there is veteran depth Jennings, Lance and Sasha represent fantastic value in this market.

Hey, I didn't like the Rose deal either. But I did give it a wait and see. In the past that WAS the move. Now, that is just one thing that can go right. If that move fails there is upside to that as well. Big picture this was a hell of a job

Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player, looked like desperation to me. Rose could have been gotten next summer, who were we bidding against that we had to pull the trigger now?

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime. Was hoping for something more for a player who looked like an all star by the end of the season, on a great deal, and in his prime.

Just remember a "Bird in the Hand". Waiting for Rose next summer sounds good if you have no intention of actually putting together a playoff team THIS summer. That move actually allowed for a better distribution of our limited cap space. That money got split up very well IMO.

GustavBahler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency.

Wait, what? Who? Huh? No. You're overrating Lopez.

GustavBahler wrote:

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime.

Also, if Rose looked improved next season, the idea that you could get him for Rolo and Grant would be laughable. It wouldn't happen. He bought low on DRose and sold high on Rolo. Grant is the only risk in the trade - if you believe he can be an all-star or something... which I do not see happening.

Okay, maybe thats too much. Lopez was still worth around 15 mill a year. I havent heard anyone say that his contract isnt a bargain at today's rates.

As far as next season, Rose would be a free agent, wouldnt need to trade for Rose. I have no problem with trading Lopez, I did have a problem with trading him in a package that was mostly an expiring contract.

Clearly the Knicks wanted to also clear the cap space too. I don't think characterizing the trade as reluctantly giving up Lopez and not getting enough is fair.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2016/07/13/knicks-sign-maurice-ndour-guaranteed-contract

Report: Knicks sign Maurice Ndour to two-year guaranteed deal

The Knicks have signed Real Madrid forward Maurice Ndour to a two-year guaranteed deal, according to European basketball reporter David Pick.

Ndour, 24, last played for Real Madrid in Liga ACB, averaging 2.3 points and 1.8 rebounds in 9.6 minutes per game. He impressed the Knicks last year at Summer League in Las Vegas, scoring 23 points in a game against then-rookie Jahlil Okafor and the 76ers.

Following Summer League, Ndour signed a multi-year deal with the Mavericks, but was waived in October.

The signing of Ndour brings the Knicks to 14 players. He joins Joakim Noah, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn and Marshall Plumlee in the frontcourt.

On Tuesday, the team re-signed veteran guard Sasha Vujacic to a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum.

– Kenny Ducey

Two good signings this week. Never thought I would say that about Sasha returning, but for a year, and to help KP and the new rooks adjust to all the changes, its a smart move.

There is real balance. Its why I am very puzzled as some folks are saying this is an all in and PHil's plan totally changed and its all win now. NDour, Kuz, Willy, not sure if both Baker/Randle make the team, Plumlee... If you cant see a clear and concerted effort by this FO to continue to build towards the future WHILE fielding a team with the upside for a deep playoff run I just don't know what you are looking at.

Its because the starting roster is top heavy with older, frequently injured players now. Some of us here were happy to have the best frontcourt since Ewing/Oakley. As I pointed out before, even Mike Lupica who supported the Rose trade said it was a desperation move. Im glad there are some younger players in the pipeline, at the same time, I want to be sure that KP isn't surrounded by older, broken down players on bad deals when its time to re-up.

I keep hearing that Porzingis would never leave. I believe if we've learned anything from the Durant move, is anything can happen, especially with Dolan in charge. I dont want mgmt to get complacent about what the team will look like when its time for KP to make his decision. Those are legitimate concerns IMO considering this franchise's history under Dolan.

Have also made it clear that since Phil's sudden sense of urgency, I do like the moves he has made to fill out the roster.

I guess my retort is simple... do you still believe the bold? Because if you look at every move that followed the Rose deal it looks like the start of a calculated and well executed offseason. Phil hedged the health of Noah and Rose with Kuz, NDour, Willy and Plumlee... all prospects locked into 2 year deals. Then to ensure there is veteran depth Jennings, Lance and Sasha represent fantastic value in this market.

Hey, I didn't like the Rose deal either. But I did give it a wait and see. In the past that WAS the move. Now, that is just one thing that can go right. If that move fails there is upside to that as well. Big picture this was a hell of a job

Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player, looked like desperation to me. Rose could have been gotten next summer, who were we bidding against that we had to pull the trigger now?

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime. Was hoping for something more for a player who looked like an all star by the end of the season, on a great deal, and in his prime.

I don't know man.. I think your lament in losing Lopez (a good player) is not in line with how well we did in a brutal FA market. Mike Conley got $150mm. He's the highest paid NBA player EVER. How were we going to upgrade PG for the coach? The reality is with Lopez as a centerpiece I suspect Rose was the best we could do, unless you saw something else on the market that would have been better? In 20/20 the Rose trade was excellent, and it was my least favorite offseason move! $150mm for Mike Conley!

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2016/07/13/knicks-sign-maurice-ndour-guaranteed-contract

Report: Knicks sign Maurice Ndour to two-year guaranteed deal

The Knicks have signed Real Madrid forward Maurice Ndour to a two-year guaranteed deal, according to European basketball reporter David Pick.

Ndour, 24, last played for Real Madrid in Liga ACB, averaging 2.3 points and 1.8 rebounds in 9.6 minutes per game. He impressed the Knicks last year at Summer League in Las Vegas, scoring 23 points in a game against then-rookie Jahlil Okafor and the 76ers.

Following Summer League, Ndour signed a multi-year deal with the Mavericks, but was waived in October.

The signing of Ndour brings the Knicks to 14 players. He joins Joakim Noah, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn and Marshall Plumlee in the frontcourt.

On Tuesday, the team re-signed veteran guard Sasha Vujacic to a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum.

– Kenny Ducey

Two good signings this week. Never thought I would say that about Sasha returning, but for a year, and to help KP and the new rooks adjust to all the changes, its a smart move.

There is real balance. Its why I am very puzzled as some folks are saying this is an all in and PHil's plan totally changed and its all win now. NDour, Kuz, Willy, not sure if both Baker/Randle make the team, Plumlee... If you cant see a clear and concerted effort by this FO to continue to build towards the future WHILE fielding a team with the upside for a deep playoff run I just don't know what you are looking at.

Its because the starting roster is top heavy with older, frequently injured players now. Some of us here were happy to have the best frontcourt since Ewing/Oakley. As I pointed out before, even Mike Lupica who supported the Rose trade said it was a desperation move. Im glad there are some younger players in the pipeline, at the same time, I want to be sure that KP isn't surrounded by older, broken down players on bad deals when its time to re-up.

I keep hearing that Porzingis would never leave. I believe if we've learned anything from the Durant move, is anything can happen, especially with Dolan in charge. I dont want mgmt to get complacent about what the team will look like when its time for KP to make his decision. Those are legitimate concerns IMO considering this franchise's history under Dolan.

Have also made it clear that since Phil's sudden sense of urgency, I do like the moves he has made to fill out the roster.

I guess my retort is simple... do you still believe the bold? Because if you look at every move that followed the Rose deal it looks like the start of a calculated and well executed offseason. Phil hedged the health of Noah and Rose with Kuz, NDour, Willy and Plumlee... all prospects locked into 2 year deals. Then to ensure there is veteran depth Jennings, Lance and Sasha represent fantastic value in this market.

Hey, I didn't like the Rose deal either. But I did give it a wait and see. In the past that WAS the move. Now, that is just one thing that can go right. If that move fails there is upside to that as well. Big picture this was a hell of a job

Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player, looked like desperation to me. Rose could have been gotten next summer, who were we bidding against that we had to pull the trigger now?

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime. Was hoping for something more for a player who looked like an all star by the end of the season, on a great deal, and in his prime.

there are two sides to that coin though... Thad Young went for a 20ish pick and they are similar. Lopez's best BB came when the Knicks were losing every game, and look at the what we saw with guards in this market. Bench players getting max contracts. Phil said part of the reason was the FA crop didn't make sense and he was a 100% right with that.

I don't know man.. I think your lament in losing Lopez (a good player) is not in line with how well we did in a brutal FA market. Mike Conley got $150mm. He's the highest paid NBA player EVER. How were we going to upgrade PG for the coach? The reality is with Lopez as a centerpiece I suspect Rose was the best we could do, unless you saw something else on the market that would have been better? In 20/20 the Rose trade was excellent, and it was my least favorite offseason move! $150mm for Mike Conley!

And I want to say that this has been mention over and over and over again, but the Rose trade lead to Lee and Noah.

Next year there are plenty of tier 1 PGs coming on the market, so even the prospect of losing Rose is fairly diminished by the prospect of having the table set by a follow up move, with all of the other benefits of the Rose trade still in place.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player...

Okay, you invited a comparison, Lopez and centers who recently signed $20m a year-ish contracts. Let's entertain that comparison further on the logical other side.

What recent trades for a player comparable to Lopez netted a first round pick or a better complimentary player?

Now that salaries are exploding, Lopez's bargain of a 12 million a year contract should have gotten us a better than just a second rounder. The part you left out of my quote was where I said that Phil should have gotten either a better draft pick a better player than Holiday. Wouldn't have traded Lopez for less especially since Rose could walk at the end of next season.

$13.5m, but nevertheless... what are you basing "should" (two of them) on?

Citable precedent, or arbitrary opinion?

I assumed the latter since you were making an empirical comparison to other player's free agent deals.

Im basing it entirely on what we got back, mostly a PG who cant stay on the floor, who has been a shell of the player he used to be for years now, and on an expiring contract. What happens if Rose walks? In the end we got a 2nd rounder and a 12th man for Lopez and Grant. Was never opposed to trading Lopez, just would have prefered someone younger, healthier, and under contract beyond next season

And if at 28 Rose returns to all star form? Than we got an all star player for spare parts and we got a 2nd rounder BACK. If Rose plays well enough for the Knicks to do advance and have a good run maybe the team is more attractive to an even bigger fish. I don't know, but the flexibility will be there. Its not a win win. We could end up wasting assets for a player that doesn't work out, but there has already been a positive domino effect because Lance, Lee and Kuz all had offers from other teams not only chose here but possibly for less money.

I agree, if Rose comes back, plays great, and stays healthy long term, it ends up being a great move.
If we sign him long term and it ends up being a repeat of his last 4 years, then we're screwed.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:http://www.si.com/nba/2016/07/13/knicks-sign-maurice-ndour-guaranteed-contract

Report: Knicks sign Maurice Ndour to two-year guaranteed deal

The Knicks have signed Real Madrid forward Maurice Ndour to a two-year guaranteed deal, according to European basketball reporter David Pick.

Ndour, 24, last played for Real Madrid in Liga ACB, averaging 2.3 points and 1.8 rebounds in 9.6 minutes per game. He impressed the Knicks last year at Summer League in Las Vegas, scoring 23 points in a game against then-rookie Jahlil Okafor and the 76ers.

Following Summer League, Ndour signed a multi-year deal with the Mavericks, but was waived in October.

The signing of Ndour brings the Knicks to 14 players. He joins Joakim Noah, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn and Marshall Plumlee in the frontcourt.

On Tuesday, the team re-signed veteran guard Sasha Vujacic to a one-year deal worth the veteran’s minimum.

– Kenny Ducey

Two good signings this week. Never thought I would say that about Sasha returning, but for a year, and to help KP and the new rooks adjust to all the changes, its a smart move.

There is real balance. Its why I am very puzzled as some folks are saying this is an all in and PHil's plan totally changed and its all win now. NDour, Kuz, Willy, not sure if both Baker/Randle make the team, Plumlee... If you cant see a clear and concerted effort by this FO to continue to build towards the future WHILE fielding a team with the upside for a deep playoff run I just don't know what you are looking at.

Its because the starting roster is top heavy with older, frequently injured players now. Some of us here were happy to have the best frontcourt since Ewing/Oakley. As I pointed out before, even Mike Lupica who supported the Rose trade said it was a desperation move. Im glad there are some younger players in the pipeline, at the same time, I want to be sure that KP isn't surrounded by older, broken down players on bad deals when its time to re-up.

I keep hearing that Porzingis would never leave. I believe if we've learned anything from the Durant move, is anything can happen, especially with Dolan in charge. I dont want mgmt to get complacent about what the team will look like when its time for KP to make his decision. Those are legitimate concerns IMO considering this franchise's history under Dolan.

Have also made it clear that since Phil's sudden sense of urgency, I do like the moves he has made to fill out the roster.

I guess my retort is simple... do you still believe the bold? Because if you look at every move that followed the Rose deal it looks like the start of a calculated and well executed offseason. Phil hedged the health of Noah and Rose with Kuz, NDour, Willy and Plumlee... all prospects locked into 2 year deals. Then to ensure there is veteran depth Jennings, Lance and Sasha represent fantastic value in this market.

Hey, I didn't like the Rose deal either. But I did give it a wait and see. In the past that WAS the move. Now, that is just one thing that can go right. If that move fails there is upside to that as well. Big picture this was a hell of a job

Players not as good as Lopez are getting around 20 million a year in free agency. Giving up Lopez without getting back a first round pick or a better complimentary player, looked like desperation to me. Rose could have been gotten next summer, who were we bidding against that we had to pull the trigger now?

As far as seing how healthy Rose was before signing him, Phil could have seen that on the Bulls' dime. Was hoping for something more for a player who looked like an all star by the end of the season, on a great deal, and in his prime.

Individual success a on a losing team diminishes a player's value, you weren't getting no 1st round from any team.

As far as ROSE, I'm sure Agents talk well before the season is done, and none of the top tier FA pg's were talking kicks. Rose for calderon is really a no brainer. He lasted 72 hrs in a bulls uniform..lol

If teams really do go by advanced stats they would know that Lopez has been for a while now ( except for that injury) an elite defender, offensive rebounder, and very efficient. He showed this season that he could put big numbers in a hurry. Good team or not, I believe Phil should have driven a harder bargain. Regardless, Phil has done a lot of roster shuffling, most of it I have agreed with.