ChuckBuck wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Trade him and use the 23 mil per year cap money wisely. I chose option A even though it's way too early to know that either of those players are ones to build a franchise around.

we had 27 million this yr, and the improvement is lousy, KP is shooting 41% on the season and is head south of his development. Once the full scouting report was out, just like LIN, its been a struggle for him.

And if you don't know for certain how it will turned out, what sense would it make to trade surety for uncertainty

See bold

See Dolan

LOL!
We did add Rolo. So it's not impossible for FA money to be spent well but we have had a low success rate with FAs (and draft picks and trades) under Dolan.

I see, so with our cap space we are going to sign pure bargains and values. And with our draft picks we are going to hit on multiple franchise players.

With this ownership and management? I doubt it but it's not going to get any worse than the sub .300 winning percentage since Melo signed the largest basketball contract in the world (at the time). They're going to need new people or at least new methods for making decisions.

Philly has had no big contracts and multiple upon multiple lotto picks over the years. And they have less then .300% win %

There aren't many teams in the league that have a team full of bargain contracts and franchise picks they landed in the draft. Because it's freaking hard.

All plans are great if you execute and or get lucky.

I never said we need to avoid big contracts. I just wouldn't have given the largest contract on the planet to Melo.

You should know the circumstances that came with that though. Which has been gone over plenty of times.

Resigning Melo was a mistake simple and plain. If anything we should've done a sign and trade like what we did with David Lee before we signed Amare, if we were afraid of Melo walking without compensation.

Just a dumb management decision by Phil, and now we're forced to do a half ass rebuild "Are we doing playoffs or not?" Instead doing a proper rebuild youth movement with tons of cap space.

Resigning was the 1st mistake, compounding it with the NTC was a true death blow for our team's flexibilty and near future prospects of getting decent return for Melo.

Yet after we resigned Melo we still were able to land KP, still had cap space last off season, and still have cap space going into this off season because the cap raised 20mil which was expected. There haven't been any FAs that we missed out on due to Melo's contract. But let me guess, if we had the extra 23mil this past off season then we would have landed Butler and Leonard. Or value players like Crowder would bypass a playoff team like Celtics to come to our completely bare team.

But which free agents will sign with 31 year Melo? That's the loaded question. (Hint, No one good)

Should've rebuilt proper and get a bunch of younger hungry free agents and aim big for the 2017 draft lottery to pair with KP. Instead we're fake competing and ruining our draft spot to like the teens or worst to salvage Melo's "prime".

Brah, is there anything else you can add to make your argument "Simple amd Plain" because all I see is you having a hard on for Melo. Just let the hate go brah.

Ussually mistakes:
Don't lead team in points, rebounds and assists.
Arent just deemed mistakes because they command a Max. Or Davis wpuld be a mistake because NO doesn't win? Brook Lopez?, etc etc long list of max contracts on losing squads.
If we just let him walk during contract year, how would we be? And don't say we could of picked up franchise changing players with rhat cap space, as there were none rhat were coming. Specially without him.
With the new TV money coming in, Melo's deal will prove to be decent in terms of money. Have you seen what some of these short carreer players are slatted to make?
But your right, with Melo money we could of picked up someone like Gallinari and Afflalo.

Btw. Jeremy Lin the reason you hate Melo? You guys still dating?

You need to pickup cornerstones in the draft, not free agency. We have KP, so that's 1, we need another. If we're semi-competitive this year, we're pretty much blowing our shot at getting our 2nd stud in the 2017 draft.

Free agency is great to add that final piece for a title run like an Aldridge or Love. You need to build from within first and add younger role players along the way that might pan out, not this bullshyt we're doing now.

Agree with you on many points. However, a team playing Melo is definately a better shot at a cornerstone than a low percentage chance of a draft pick. Specially in the upcoming draft. IMO.
Not for trading Melo in a year he is at lowest value with knee issues. Not to mention he deserves credit for finally coming around in terms of his improved all around play. Besides Not a fan of blaming Melo/star player for the many other holes on your team. Just won't get us anywhere. Focus should be on real issues. Back court. Consistent three point shooters. Stronger bench. KP continued improvement. And a coach with experience and a system the players will respect and want to play for.

I do think we both want the same things for the Knicks. Just different road maps.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:There was one other reason Melo was signed that has been largely ignored here, and thats signing Melo to keep people in the seats. Sure some of it had to do with what Melo brought to the table, but a lot of it had to do with not knowing that they would get a top 5 pick in KP, and that KP had superstar potential. The decision to tank and go for the first pick came after Melo reupped. As far as Jackson was concerned he had to have at least one star in NY while he does his rebuild. Otherwise it would have taken longer to get back to relevance, and the Knicks would have trouble drawing crowds which Dolan would not have liked.

I get the logic, makes sense, if it had been a 4 year deal (even with a NTC) I would have been happier to see Melo come back. If he develops a serious injury we would be on the hook for 5 years with limited trade options. Thats why I would be pleased with a trade that brought us a package of younger player(s) and picks.

bingo! cash cow syndrome.

We would only have limited options when it pertains to trading Melo, but not the rest of the team. This off season if we strike out on free agency, would be the only time I could see trading Melo as a realistic opportunity. Acting like we could have traded Melo for any assets before then is just blowing smoke. Letting Melo walk comes with just as much down side. It does allow you to dream more though.

don't agree there.

By the time he was a free agent and held all the cards, phil was screwed and melo owned him.

I would assume (because I still have some respect for phil) that he knows that it was a mistake not to trade him before he became a FA. Of course it was a mistake to not trade him. Now his value is crumbling by the minute even though he is playing a much smarter brand of basketball.

I would say that if I was the GM and I was hired after the trade deadline, I probably would have resigned him. Melo would have owned me and handcuffed me. Can't just let an asset like that walk.

Melo would have to okay any deal. He had an expiring contract.

he may have if phil said that he was rebuilding.

Its possible though Melo doesn't seem to be opposed to rebuilding at the moment. At the same time Melo wouldn't need to ask to be traded. Just let his contract expire. Sign a 2 yr deal with a contender and then reup again under the higher cap.

then he loses a year and 30 million. melo don't do losing 30 million

He would probably make that up or more by reupping during the cap explosion.

only if he signed a 1 or 2 year. At (post) year 4 his value and leverage is gone.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Trade him and use the 23 mil per year cap money wisely. I chose option A even though it's way too early to know that either of those players are ones to build a franchise around.

we had 27 million this yr, and the improvement is lousy, KP is shooting 41% on the season and is head south of his development. Once the full scouting report was out, just like LIN, its been a struggle for him.

And if you don't know for certain how it will turned out, what sense would it make to trade surety for uncertainty

See bold

See Dolan

LOL!
We did add Rolo. So it's not impossible for FA money to be spent well but we have had a low success rate with FAs (and draft picks and trades) under Dolan.

I see, so with our cap space we are going to sign pure bargains and values. And with our draft picks we are going to hit on multiple franchise players.

With this ownership and management? I doubt it but it's not going to get any worse than the sub .300 winning percentage since Melo signed the largest basketball contract in the world (at the time). They're going to need new people or at least new methods for making decisions.

Philly has had no big contracts and multiple upon multiple lotto picks over the years. And they have less then .300% win %

There aren't many teams in the league that have a team full of bargain contracts and franchise picks they landed in the draft. Because it's freaking hard.

All plans are great if you execute and or get lucky.

I never said we need to avoid big contracts. I just wouldn't have given the largest contract on the planet to Melo.

You should know the circumstances that came with that though. Which has been gone over plenty of times.

I've listed below all of the circumstances that would cause me to give out a bad contract:

I mean that's kind of easy to say on a message board. You try and make it seem like Carmelo's contract has prevented the Knicks from having any flexibility which hasn't been the case.

It's taken up space that could have been better used. I think there's strong evidence that Melo's production does not match his contract. And the problem is that you don't want players to simply match their contracts (which he doesn't even do). Average production per dollar spent is what a .500 team does. The top teams have most of their salary spent on players whose production exceeds their contracts. We actually have the 17th highest payroll and 22nd best record. So we're getting below average return on money spent. That's not just Melo. Almost every player on the roster is producing below their contract. He's just the biggest symptom of a problem that pertains to the entire roster.
To be clear, I didn't want to lose Melo for nothing either. It should have never gotten to the point of his free agency. Back when Melo was winning player of the month awards, I was saying it was time to sell high and trade him.

This would mean more if the Knicks were capped out beyond belief with a bunch of unmovable players and no wiggle room to improve the roster which isn't the case. Just because hypothetically money could maybe be spent on higher returns if they were available doesn't mean it would happen. You have to compete for FAs with other teams. You could hypothetically end up having to overpay or continue with stop gap players waiting for that value to come all the same rather then actually building a team.

A smart team spends every penny well. You can't just designate a large portion of the team salary (like Melo's 23 mil per) and say we're going to get poor return out of that portion but we'll use the other part of the cap space well. If a player is not going to outproduce his contract, then you have to find better ways to use the money. That could mean 3 guys signed at 8 mil who give you 10 mil each in production. It doesn't have to be big names.

There's no point in discussing what "would happen" under Dolan. Then as might as well just list all the ways we can think of to construct a .400 team. The point is to discuss what should happen.

You act as if the Knicks just threw 124mil at Carmelo. They did so because it was there most logical option to take. You either sign him to 5yr 124mil NTC. Or he signs with the Bulls as there would be no reason for Melo to resign with the Knicks and no reason for Bulls to trade for Melo if they know the Knicks aren't willing to use the only card they have.

You claimed when we first resigned him that this would force Phil to go after a Monroe and be capped out with Melo and Monroe locked into mediocrity and no cap flexibility. Also stated we would never be able to land a blue chip prospect. Yet we do have cap flexibility and we do have a blue chip prospect.

I understand the principals that you want to hold on to. But its not black and white.

I claimed we'd be forced to go after Monroe? I don't remember that by any means. I never make guarantees about what player a GM will target. I can't imagine I said that. If Melo went to the Bulls and we lose him for nothing, that's a worse case scenario that should have been avoided but it's still fine. I'd rather have the $124 mil in cap space than have Melo at that price. His production doesn't warrant it. I'd be willing to bet that spending that money well on players other than Melo would not have led to an outcome worse than our 44 and 104 record since his signing!

I'm pretty sure you did but whatever. If we did win more then we wouldn't have KP and you would probably be claiming that we weren't real contenders and are missing out on blue chip prospects. And again you are assuming that we would be able to spend money well on players like that. Yea hypothetically if we did have an extra 23mil last off season and we signed a bunch of sleepers who broke out and outproduced there contracts then of course we would great. The odds of that happening though are aren't as great.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Trade him and use the 23 mil per year cap money wisely. I chose option A even though it's way too early to know that either of those players are ones to build a franchise around.

we had 27 million this yr, and the improvement is lousy, KP is shooting 41% on the season and is head south of his development. Once the full scouting report was out, just like LIN, its been a struggle for him.

And if you don't know for certain how it will turned out, what sense would it make to trade surety for uncertainty

See bold

See Dolan

LOL!
We did add Rolo. So it's not impossible for FA money to be spent well but we have had a low success rate with FAs (and draft picks and trades) under Dolan.

I see, so with our cap space we are going to sign pure bargains and values. And with our draft picks we are going to hit on multiple franchise players.

With this ownership and management? I doubt it but it's not going to get any worse than the sub .300 winning percentage since Melo signed the largest basketball contract in the world (at the time). They're going to need new people or at least new methods for making decisions.

Philly has had no big contracts and multiple upon multiple lotto picks over the years. And they have less then .300% win %

There aren't many teams in the league that have a team full of bargain contracts and franchise picks they landed in the draft. Because it's freaking hard.

All plans are great if you execute and or get lucky.

I never said we need to avoid big contracts. I just wouldn't have given the largest contract on the planet to Melo.

You should know the circumstances that came with that though. Which has been gone over plenty of times.

I've listed below all of the circumstances that would cause me to give out a bad contract:

I mean that's kind of easy to say on a message board. You try and make it seem like Carmelo's contract has prevented the Knicks from having any flexibility which hasn't been the case.

It's taken up space that could have been better used. I think there's strong evidence that Melo's production does not match his contract. And the problem is that you don't want players to simply match their contracts (which he doesn't even do). Average production per dollar spent is what a .500 team does. The top teams have most of their salary spent on players whose production exceeds their contracts. We actually have the 17th highest payroll and 22nd best record. So we're getting below average return on money spent. That's not just Melo. Almost every player on the roster is producing below their contract. He's just the biggest symptom of a problem that pertains to the entire roster.
To be clear, I didn't want to lose Melo for nothing either. It should have never gotten to the point of his free agency. Back when Melo was winning player of the month awards, I was saying it was time to sell high and trade him.

This would mean more if the Knicks were capped out beyond belief with a bunch of unmovable players and no wiggle room to improve the roster which isn't the case. Just because hypothetically money could maybe be spent on higher returns if they were available doesn't mean it would happen. You have to compete for FAs with other teams. You could hypothetically end up having to overpay or continue with stop gap players waiting for that value to come all the same rather then actually building a team.

A smart team spends every penny well. You can't just designate a large portion of the team salary (like Melo's 23 mil per) and say we're going to get poor return out of that portion but we'll use the other part of the cap space well. If a player is not going to outproduce his contract, then you have to find better ways to use the money. That could mean 3 guys signed at 8 mil who give you 10 mil each in production. It doesn't have to be big names.

There's no point in discussing what "would happen" under Dolan. Then as might as well just list all the ways we can think of to construct a .400 team. The point is to discuss what should happen.

You act as if the Knicks just threw 124mil at Carmelo. They did so because it was there most logical option to take. You either sign him to 5yr 124mil NTC. Or he signs with the Bulls as there would be no reason for Melo to resign with the Knicks and no reason for Bulls to trade for Melo if they know the Knicks aren't willing to use the only card they have.

You claimed when we first resigned him that this would force Phil to go after a Monroe and be capped out with Melo and Monroe locked into mediocrity and no cap flexibility. Also stated we would never be able to land a blue chip prospect. Yet we do have cap flexibility and we do have a blue chip prospect.

I understand the principals that you want to hold on to. But its not black and white.

I claimed we'd be forced to go after Monroe? I don't remember that by any means. I never make guarantees about what player a GM will target. I can't imagine I said that. If Melo went to the Bulls and we lose him for nothing, that's a worse case scenario that should have been avoided but it's still fine. I'd rather have the $124 mil in cap space than have Melo at that price. His production doesn't warrant it. I'd be willing to bet that spending that money well on players other than Melo would not have led to an outcome worse than our 44 and 104 record since his signing!

I'm pretty sure you did but whatever. If we did win more then we wouldn't have KP and you would probably be claiming that we weren't real contenders and are missing out on blue chip prospects. And again you are assuming that we would be able to spend money well on players like that. Yea hypothetically if we did have an extra 23mil last off season and we signed a bunch of sleepers who broke out and outproduced there contracts then of course we would great. The odds of that happening though are aren't as great.

So we re-signed Melo in order to tank?! Seriously, if the goal was to tank, we should have finished with the worst record and likely gotten Towns (or had a great trade down from pick 1 if you still wanted KP). If the plan was to win, we should have gotten better use out of that 124 mil in cap space. We didn't do either plan right. I'm not simply saying hypothetically it's possible to spend that 23 mil per year better. I'm saying the average GM gets more out of every 23 mil spent. I think if you look at all the metrics (how many million do you have to spend to get an additional win share, for example), we are getting below average return out of that 124 mil. If we had spent that 124 mil elsewhere and simply gotten average return, I think we would have done better than 44-104 since the signing. (Or we could have just left the cap room open, tanked, and likely gotten Towns.)

I don't think having cap space equals the ability to sign quality players. Look at the nets a few years back and in the past in general. Guys won't sign there. They had a ton of space when LBJ was a free agent and they came away with Travis Outlaw for their troubles. Some of that horrendous record is because Melo was injured. Some of it is because Phil cleaned house, sending out Felton, Tyson, Shump and JR for pennies on the dollar. Some of it was on inept coacching. Pinning the knicks problems on one signing is taking a pretty narrow view of what happened over that period of time.

Cap space is definitely the ability to sign quality players. That doesn't mean that they will be big name players on large contracts, though.
I definitely never pinned the poor record entirely on Melo. He is merely the biggest symptom of a problem that permeates our entire roster: poor return on investment.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Trade him and use the 23 mil per year cap money wisely. I chose option A even though it's way too early to know that either of those players are ones to build a franchise around.

we had 27 million this yr, and the improvement is lousy, KP is shooting 41% on the season and is head south of his development. Once the full scouting report was out, just like LIN, its been a struggle for him.

And if you don't know for certain how it will turned out, what sense would it make to trade surety for uncertainty

See bold

See Dolan

LOL!
We did add Rolo. So it's not impossible for FA money to be spent well but we have had a low success rate with FAs (and draft picks and trades) under Dolan.

I see, so with our cap space we are going to sign pure bargains and values. And with our draft picks we are going to hit on multiple franchise players.

With this ownership and management? I doubt it but it's not going to get any worse than the sub .300 winning percentage since Melo signed the largest basketball contract in the world (at the time). They're going to need new people or at least new methods for making decisions.

Philly has had no big contracts and multiple upon multiple lotto picks over the years. And they have less then .300% win %

There aren't many teams in the league that have a team full of bargain contracts and franchise picks they landed in the draft. Because it's freaking hard.

All plans are great if you execute and or get lucky.

I never said we need to avoid big contracts. I just wouldn't have given the largest contract on the planet to Melo.

You should know the circumstances that came with that though. Which has been gone over plenty of times.

I've listed below all of the circumstances that would cause me to give out a bad contract:

I mean that's kind of easy to say on a message board. You try and make it seem like Carmelo's contract has prevented the Knicks from having any flexibility which hasn't been the case.

It's taken up space that could have been better used. I think there's strong evidence that Melo's production does not match his contract. And the problem is that you don't want players to simply match their contracts (which he doesn't even do). Average production per dollar spent is what a .500 team does. The top teams have most of their salary spent on players whose production exceeds their contracts. We actually have the 17th highest payroll and 22nd best record. So we're getting below average return on money spent. That's not just Melo. Almost every player on the roster is producing below their contract. He's just the biggest symptom of a problem that pertains to the entire roster.
To be clear, I didn't want to lose Melo for nothing either. It should have never gotten to the point of his free agency. Back when Melo was winning player of the month awards, I was saying it was time to sell high and trade him.

This would mean more if the Knicks were capped out beyond belief with a bunch of unmovable players and no wiggle room to improve the roster which isn't the case. Just because hypothetically money could maybe be spent on higher returns if they were available doesn't mean it would happen. You have to compete for FAs with other teams. You could hypothetically end up having to overpay or continue with stop gap players waiting for that value to come all the same rather then actually building a team.

A smart team spends every penny well. You can't just designate a large portion of the team salary (like Melo's 23 mil per) and say we're going to get poor return out of that portion but we'll use the other part of the cap space well. If a player is not going to outproduce his contract, then you have to find better ways to use the money. That could mean 3 guys signed at 8 mil who give you 10 mil each in production. It doesn't have to be big names.

There's no point in discussing what "would happen" under Dolan. Then as might as well just list all the ways we can think of to construct a .400 team. The point is to discuss what should happen.

You act as if the Knicks just threw 124mil at Carmelo. They did so because it was there most logical option to take. You either sign him to 5yr 124mil NTC. Or he signs with the Bulls as there would be no reason for Melo to resign with the Knicks and no reason for Bulls to trade for Melo if they know the Knicks aren't willing to use the only card they have.

You claimed when we first resigned him that this would force Phil to go after a Monroe and be capped out with Melo and Monroe locked into mediocrity and no cap flexibility. Also stated we would never be able to land a blue chip prospect. Yet we do have cap flexibility and we do have a blue chip prospect.

I understand the principals that you want to hold on to. But its not black and white.

I claimed we'd be forced to go after Monroe? I don't remember that by any means. I never make guarantees about what player a GM will target. I can't imagine I said that. If Melo went to the Bulls and we lose him for nothing, that's a worse case scenario that should have been avoided but it's still fine. I'd rather have the $124 mil in cap space than have Melo at that price. His production doesn't warrant it. I'd be willing to bet that spending that money well on players other than Melo would not have led to an outcome worse than our 44 and 104 record since his signing!

I'm pretty sure you did but whatever. If we did win more then we wouldn't have KP and you would probably be claiming that we weren't real contenders and are missing out on blue chip prospects. And again you are assuming that we would be able to spend money well on players like that. Yea hypothetically if we did have an extra 23mil last off season and we signed a bunch of sleepers who broke out and outproduced there contracts then of course we would great. The odds of that happening though are aren't as great.

So we re-signed Melo in order to tank?! Seriously, if the goal was to tank, we should have finished with the worst record and likely gotten Towns (or had a great trade down from pick 1 if you still wanted KP). If the plan was to win, we should have gotten better use out of that 124 mil in cap space. We didn't do either plan right. I'm not simply saying hypothetically it's possible to spend that 23 mil per year better. I'm saying the average GM gets more out of every 23 mil spent. I think if you look at all the metrics (how many million do you have to spend to get an additional win share, for example), we are getting below average return out of that 124 mil. If we had spent that 124 mil elsewhere and simply gotten average return, I think we would have done better than 44-104 since the signing. (Or we could have just left the cap room open, tanked, and likely gotten Towns.)

When we resigned Melo we were over the cap with or without resigning him. We wouldnt have been able to make any use of that cap space for the first yr of his contract. The impact of his contract towards our flexibility(in terms of extra money to spend) is really 4yrs 100mil with a player option which if he excersized to get one more contract with us or another team would equate to 3 yrs 75 mil. Then there is the fact that with the rising salary cap. The 124mil contract isn't the same type of cap hit. Carroll currently is making more money per yr right now then most franchise players were making in the 80s and 90s that's sports.

Phil was with the Knicks for a partial season which we didnt run the tri. He gave the team the opportunity to see how they would perform in the triangle. Then adapted after it didnt work out and tanked.

Cap space isn't usually the formula for value anyway. Draft picks are what create value deals. As you are able to resign them usually before they hit prime. But you guys take that as depending only on draft picks. Which if it works out great but if it don't then not so great. And thats not the way to go.

Golden State overpaid for David Lee and he didn't match the value of his contract due to health reasons and probably win shares either. GSW added Curry without tanking, Klay without tanking, Green without tanking, Barnes without tanking. They attempted to make playoffs and made moves for Lee and Bogut. Failed and ended up with lotto picks out side of the top 5. Greens production flat out eliminated the lack of value from Lees and contract. Not to mention Bogut as well.

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:Next year Melo will not be a Knick. He has his foot out the door.

What makes you say this. I haven't seen any indication that this is the case. If anything he's sounding like he's very much looking to stay the course.

I'm saying this because it is going to happen Melo will be playing for the Clippers next year he will get the same brand recognition as in NY and Lala is going to be very ok with it. As they already have roots in LA.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Trade him and use the 23 mil per year cap money wisely. I chose option A even though it's way too early to know that either of those players are ones to build a franchise around.

we had 27 million this yr, and the improvement is lousy, KP is shooting 41% on the season and is head south of his development. Once the full scouting report was out, just like LIN, its been a struggle for him.

And if you don't know for certain how it will turned out, what sense would it make to trade surety for uncertainty

See bold

See Dolan

LOL!
We did add Rolo. So it's not impossible for FA money to be spent well but we have had a low success rate with FAs (and draft picks and trades) under Dolan.

I see, so with our cap space we are going to sign pure bargains and values. And with our draft picks we are going to hit on multiple franchise players.

With this ownership and management? I doubt it but it's not going to get any worse than the sub .300 winning percentage since Melo signed the largest basketball contract in the world (at the time). They're going to need new people or at least new methods for making decisions.

Philly has had no big contracts and multiple upon multiple lotto picks over the years. And they have less then .300% win %

There aren't many teams in the league that have a team full of bargain contracts and franchise picks they landed in the draft. Because it's freaking hard.

All plans are great if you execute and or get lucky.

I never said we need to avoid big contracts. I just wouldn't have given the largest contract on the planet to Melo.

You should know the circumstances that came with that though. Which has been gone over plenty of times.

I've listed below all of the circumstances that would cause me to give out a bad contract:

I mean that's kind of easy to say on a message board. You try and make it seem like Carmelo's contract has prevented the Knicks from having any flexibility which hasn't been the case.

It's taken up space that could have been better used. I think there's strong evidence that Melo's production does not match his contract. And the problem is that you don't want players to simply match their contracts (which he doesn't even do). Average production per dollar spent is what a .500 team does. The top teams have most of their salary spent on players whose production exceeds their contracts. We actually have the 17th highest payroll and 22nd best record. So we're getting below average return on money spent. That's not just Melo. Almost every player on the roster is producing below their contract. He's just the biggest symptom of a problem that pertains to the entire roster.
To be clear, I didn't want to lose Melo for nothing either. It should have never gotten to the point of his free agency. Back when Melo was winning player of the month awards, I was saying it was time to sell high and trade him.

This would mean more if the Knicks were capped out beyond belief with a bunch of unmovable players and no wiggle room to improve the roster which isn't the case. Just because hypothetically money could maybe be spent on higher returns if they were available doesn't mean it would happen. You have to compete for FAs with other teams. You could hypothetically end up having to overpay or continue with stop gap players waiting for that value to come all the same rather then actually building a team.

A smart team spends every penny well. You can't just designate a large portion of the team salary (like Melo's 23 mil per) and say we're going to get poor return out of that portion but we'll use the other part of the cap space well. If a player is not going to outproduce his contract, then you have to find better ways to use the money. That could mean 3 guys signed at 8 mil who give you 10 mil each in production. It doesn't have to be big names.

There's no point in discussing what "would happen" under Dolan. Then as might as well just list all the ways we can think of to construct a .400 team. The point is to discuss what should happen.

You act as if the Knicks just threw 124mil at Carmelo. They did so because it was there most logical option to take. You either sign him to 5yr 124mil NTC. Or he signs with the Bulls as there would be no reason for Melo to resign with the Knicks and no reason for Bulls to trade for Melo if they know the Knicks aren't willing to use the only card they have.

You claimed when we first resigned him that this would force Phil to go after a Monroe and be capped out with Melo and Monroe locked into mediocrity and no cap flexibility. Also stated we would never be able to land a blue chip prospect. Yet we do have cap flexibility and we do have a blue chip prospect.

I understand the principals that you want to hold on to. But its not black and white.

I claimed we'd be forced to go after Monroe? I don't remember that by any means. I never make guarantees about what player a GM will target. I can't imagine I said that. If Melo went to the Bulls and we lose him for nothing, that's a worse case scenario that should have been avoided but it's still fine. I'd rather have the $124 mil in cap space than have Melo at that price. His production doesn't warrant it. I'd be willing to bet that spending that money well on players other than Melo would not have led to an outcome worse than our 44 and 104 record since his signing!

I'm pretty sure you did but whatever. If we did win more then we wouldn't have KP and you would probably be claiming that we weren't real contenders and are missing out on blue chip prospects. And again you are assuming that we would be able to spend money well on players like that. Yea hypothetically if we did have an extra 23mil last off season and we signed a bunch of sleepers who broke out and outproduced there contracts then of course we would great. The odds of that happening though are aren't as great.

So we re-signed Melo in order to tank?! Seriously, if the goal was to tank, we should have finished with the worst record and likely gotten Towns (or had a great trade down from pick 1 if you still wanted KP). If the plan was to win, we should have gotten better use out of that 124 mil in cap space. We didn't do either plan right. I'm not simply saying hypothetically it's possible to spend that 23 mil per year better. I'm saying the average GM gets more out of every 23 mil spent. I think if you look at all the metrics (how many million do you have to spend to get an additional win share, for example), we are getting below average return out of that 124 mil. If we had spent that 124 mil elsewhere and simply gotten average return, I think we would have done better than 44-104 since the signing. (Or we could have just left the cap room open, tanked, and likely gotten Towns.)

When we resigned Melo we were over the cap with or without resigning him. We wouldnt have been able to make any use of that cap space for the first yr of his contract. The impact of his contract towards our flexibility(in terms of extra money to spend) is really 4yrs 100mil with a player option which if he excersized to get one more contract with us or another team would equate to 3 yrs 75 mil. Then there is the fact that with the rising salary cap. The 124mil contract isn't the same type of cap hit. Carroll currently is making more money per yr right now then most franchise players were making in the 80s and 90s that's sports.

Phil was with the Knicks for a partial season which we didnt run the tri. He gave the team the opportunity to see how they would perform in the triangle. Then adapted after it didnt work out and tanked.

Cap space isn't usually the formula for value anyway. Draft picks are what create value deals. As you are able to resign them usually before they hit prime. But you guys take that as depending only on draft picks. Which if it works out great but if it don't then not so great. And thats not the way to go.

Golden State overpaid for David Lee and he didn't match the value of his contract due to health reasons and probably win shares either. GSW added Curry without tanking, Klay without tanking, Green without tanking, Barnes without tanking. They attempted to make playoffs and made moves for Lee and Bogut. Failed and ended up with lotto picks out side of the top 5. Greens production flat out eliminated the lack of value from Lees and contract. Not to mention Bogut as well.

sorry to jump in fellas but...sendclosk!

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it's hard to really say what we would get for Melo IF he wanted to leave, which he doesn't seem to want to do at all. He's talking about recruiting players to come here so I really don't see any hope of him waiving his NTC. Melo is talking about adding a PG like Rondo. He's making it clear he sees the problem as predominantly a backcourt issue. Him not waiving his NTC makes any trade discussion moot. All we can do is shop wisely in the FA Market and continue to find and develop our young prospects.

The smarter thing to do would be to tank HARD for 2017 lottery pick, continue to develop KP, don't spend any of the cap room this year, and save it for 2017 hoping the trifecta happens:

1)KP on the verge of All Star status
2)Top 5 Lottery pick with a stud to play along side KP
3)One of the top 3 free agents in 2017 decides to take the NY plunge.

Really, whether Melo stays or goes is irrelevant if the goal is sustained winning for the Knicks. Though a Melo trade bringing back picks would be infinitely more advantageous in speeding up the 5 to 6 year process to maybe a 4 or 5 year plan.