gunsnewing wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Monroe will put up his 16/11 type numbers with nice passing, sub-par D and minimal shot blocking.

I could make a case that I'd rather have him than Lopez, but I wasn't exactly shattered when we didn't get him.

We also have KOQ and Lopez for almost the same amount of $$ that Monroe cost...no doubt we have a better team because of this situation than we would have had with just Monroe.

You know what Walt, having said my peace just now, that's a good way of looking at it. Lopez + KOQ vs. just Monroe might very well turn out to be a wash, maybe we even make out better here in the long run. That's a good way of looking at it I guess -- it'd be nice to put KOQ in a position where we can get a little more out of him, though. I know KP playing well affects O'Quinn's PT but still, gotta find a way to get more out of him somehow, maybe at the expense of Lopez. KP/O'quinn is a tandem we might want to see a little more of..

My main criticism of Lopez that I didn't really know, not having seen him play regularly before we picked him up--he's giving effort but is it me or does he look extraordinarily SLOW out there? Everything he does is SLOW--his pursuit of rebounds, his holding the ball on offense (granted this may not be his fault though--guys need to cut more and get themselves open--and Lopez isn't really turning it over here, so that's good) and his offensive moves are not only awkward but it takes him FOREVER to get his shots off. That's what will continue to hold this guy back imo--he's just slow reacting to everything around him it seems.

He's slow, prodding & lumbering. Shouldn't be a surprise to us. We've been watching his twin brother play down the dial for the past what 8yrs? And Brook is the talented brother. Again I'd have no issue with what Lopez brings if we paid him $8-9mil which is extremely generous for a role player/borderline starter as opposed to $14mil. Did anyone other than the Knicks show any interest in signing him? I never heard anything only Monroe and Deandre. It is what it is just got to hope he has more games like yesterday than ineffective duds

newyorker4ever wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Monroe will put up his 16/11 type numbers with nice passing, sub-par D and minimal shot blocking.

I could make a case that I'd rather have him than Lopez, but I wasn't exactly shattered when we didn't get him.

We also have KOQ and Lopez for almost the same amount of $$ that Monroe cost...no doubt we have a better team because of this situation than we would have had with just Monroe.

You know what Walt, having said my peace just now, that's a good way of looking at it. Lopez + KOQ vs. just Monroe might very well turn out to be a wash, maybe we even make out better here in the long run. That's a good way of looking at it I guess -- it'd be nice to put KOQ in a position where we can get a little more out of him, though. I know KP playing well affects O'Quinn's PT but still, gotta find a way to get more out of him somehow, maybe at the expense of Lopez. KP/O'quinn is a tandem we might want to see a little more of..

My main criticism of Lopez that I didn't really know, not having seen him play regularly before we picked him up--he's giving effort but is it me or does he look extraordinarily SLOW out there? Everything he does is SLOW--his pursuit of rebounds, his holding the ball on offense (granted this may not be his fault though--guys need to cut more and get themselves open--and Lopez isn't really turning it over here, so that's good) and his offensive moves are not only awkward but it takes him FOREVER to get his shots off. That's what will continue to hold this guy back imo--he's just slow reacting to everything around him it seems.

He's slow, prodding & lumbering. Shouldn't be a surprise to us. We've been watching his twin brother play down the dial for the past what 8yrs? And Brook is the talented brother. Again I'd have no issue with what Lopez brings if we paid him $8-9mil which is extremely generous for a role player/borderline starter as opposed to $14mil. Did anyone other than the Knicks show any interest in signing him? I never heard anything only Monroe and Deandre. It is what it is just got to hope he has more games like yesterday than ineffective duds

Nope, nobody else wanted a legit 7 foot center that is one of the better defensive centers in the league. Hahahahaha Geesh where do you guys come from?

Who?

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Not trying to rip Lopez--dude is what he is, man. He's a pretty heady player who's trying out there and I respect the effort...but the fact of the matter is Greg Monroe is a better player than Robin Lopez. Lopez is a slight step up from Cole Aldrich (and that's debatable). Greg Monroe is a legit offensive presence on the interior and I think he's a better rebounder than Lopez too. Lopez isn't capable of 15/10 minimum (maybe closer to 20/10 if given enough shot-attempts and mins.) like Monroe is. And what was Monroe's reduced max again? $16mm a season, somewhere around there right? Man, for the $2.5-3mm more a year we could've gotten a much better player. Oh well. If Monroe truly didn't want to play here, OK, nothing we can do about that but if we really didn't offer this man the max (again, a reduced max) and we never bothered to tell him why and our thinking on the matter (did we plan on using the money to get another good player like an Afflalo or D-Will--at least that's a good reason) then Phil's nuts. Simple as that. I know the Knicks have said they offered the max and his agent said so but part of me still feels like we may not have. I dunno--it was the 1st thing reported and where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

weak post man! You completely ignored every part of the game other than offense.

Monroe is an horrendous defender.

Did you watch the game yesterday?

Weak my ass. You're weak!! And yes I did watch the game yesterday!! Lopez was good yesterday. I actually gave him credit for his effort and being fairly heady out there so far.. Have you watched Robin Lopez play all season though? Monroe play for the Pistons? Monroe the handful of games so far for the Bucks?? Greg Monroe > Robin Lopez. Case closed...And you know what, pal -- offense is a critical part of the game. If you don't put the ball in the hole more than your opponent, you don't win. You're damn right I'm concerned about the offense esp. during this whole swoon we've been in the past few games. Lopez stepped up yesterday and so did Galloway and we BARELY squeaked out a win on our home floor. We played terribly again yesterday overall.

You replied to mreinman and didn't mention anything about Monroe's defense... again.

Smh..Ok, Marty. This one's for you, sire, since you love being snarky with me all the time when you do choose to engage me for whatever reason:

(1) I'll say it again with complete conviction -- ability-wise, to me, there's not that much difference between Cole Aldrich and Robin Lopez. I said it, I said it again and I stand by it. Certainly not a $12.5mm difference/year in salary or whatever the hell it is. How is that a joke?!? What's Lopez that much better at than Cole? Tell me! To me, they're very similar -- both the same age, about the same size, Cole might be even quicker (not say too much though--they're both not know for their quickness), about equal shot-blocking presence (something Cole was known for and excelled at in college--I might even take Cole here), similar offense players (both aren't great, both look slightly awkward on the offense end), both are even good FT shooters surprisingly. The similarities are uncanny, more than I originally though in fact. Robin Lopez has gotten a legit chance to play in the NBA, Cole Aldrich really hasn't. That's the main difference I can see. Give Cole Aldrich 27 mins a game--I bet he could put up 10 and 5 with a block a game (he's never gotten anything close to that. Let me ask you--when he got extra burn here, did he play well? We had posts upon posts here talking about how he should be playing more, esp. his 1st yr here)..If you see it differently, cool. Let's talk about it w/o getting snide with each other, OK? That crap I can do without.. This is how I see it and that's not mimicking anyone else's ideas mind you (there's your joke)--those are my thoughts 100%, just like everything I choose to share on this board.

(2) Do you honestly think I don't fully understand that Greg Monroe's not some great defender? Come on, man. Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest. Some players, you look to get different things out of--for this dude Monroe, it's interior scoring and rebounding, and you know what--he's pretty damn good in both areas (borderline all-star level in both areas), better than anything Robin Lopez excels at.. Again, my opinion, but I'll personally take that to the bank. I'm intrigued by GM's offense, the impact he can have on a game offensively. If other people don't care about points, great, good for them. I want a few reliable offensive players on this team that we can turn to for some points. If you don't have that, you're dead in the water. That's what I think about with Greg Monroe, not the fact that he's not some great defender, OK? I mean you're taking me to task again on something so there it is soup to nuts so there's no confusion. Now Walt brings up good food for thought basically saying, "well, it's really Lopez + KOQ vs. Monroe." OK, I'll go along with that. But you can also say how 'bout Greg Monroe/Cole Aldrich vs. Lopez/O'Quinn, right? I'll take Monroe and Cole in that comparison.

And I choose not to respond to reinman any further because he was rude and discourteous, a few times now, and I just don't have time for that **** anymore from the few bad eggs in the carton around here.

I apologize for coming across as rude, I just felt that you and some other posters sometimes choose to ignore the core of the argument.

I for one was a huge Cole fan and created the Cole appreciation thread. I loved what I saw and was really pissed at Woody for not giving him more time in a crappy season where he was one of the only positives.

That being said, having seen him a lot more, he does way to many wild and crazy things during games to trust him out there. Can he learn? I hope he can but to compare him at this point to Lopez who has already proven to be a very valuable player on both ends of the court is IMHO irresponsible. There is a reason why Cole is still floating around.

There were some things that I saw him do that got me really excited. I am just not sure if he can/will ever put it together.

As far as Monroe, he is killing it on offense but is a TERRIBLE defender. Detroit seems to be doing really well without him. Lets see how Milwaukee does with him.

I think that it is always fair to revisit draft pick ideas, predictions etc ... to see how right or wrong we were. You throw out a lot of names out there of guys that you think that we should take flyers on. How is your long term track record with your predictions?

Also, lots of posters seem to mimic Briggs' ideas even if they make zero sense. Briggs says lets trade Nate Walters for Shump asap and then there are 10 threads about this .... sorry if I lumped you in with that group. Perhaps I was wrong about that.

I like where you are with Cole but for me, he has a ton to prove before we put him anywhere near lopez. We are also not sure about diminished returns with him as well as his performance on a top team.

gunsnewing wrote:Yea but we saw what happens when you increase Coles mins last year or any fringe NBA player for that matter. If Coke could give his team 25 good mins against starters his team would give him those minutes. Earl Barron looked great too in garbage time minutes give him 25mins and they are exposed

Fair enough. Those are valid points to bring up. One thing you mentioned earlier that I agree with 100% -- let's hope Robin has a lot more games like he did yesterday against the Lakers than some of these other games where he's been pretty ineffective.

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Not trying to rip Lopez--dude is what he is, man. He's a pretty heady player who's trying out there and I respect the effort...but the fact of the matter is Greg Monroe is a better player than Robin Lopez. Lopez is a slight step up from Cole Aldrich (and that's debatable). Greg Monroe is a legit offensive presence on the interior and I think he's a better rebounder than Lopez too. Lopez isn't capable of 15/10 minimum (maybe closer to 20/10 if given enough shot-attempts and mins.) like Monroe is. And what was Monroe's reduced max again? $16mm a season, somewhere around there right? Man, for the $2.5-3mm more a year we could've gotten a much better player. Oh well. If Monroe truly didn't want to play here, OK, nothing we can do about that but if we really didn't offer this man the max (again, a reduced max) and we never bothered to tell him why and our thinking on the matter (did we plan on using the money to get another good player like an Afflalo or D-Will--at least that's a good reason) then Phil's nuts. Simple as that. I know the Knicks have said they offered the max and his agent said so but part of me still feels like we may not have. I dunno--it was the 1st thing reported and where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

weak post man! You completely ignored every part of the game other than offense.

Monroe is an horrendous defender.

Did you watch the game yesterday?

Weak my ass. You're weak!! And yes I did watch the game yesterday!! Lopez was good yesterday. I actually gave him credit for his effort and being fairly heady out there so far.. Have you watched Robin Lopez play all season though? Monroe play for the Pistons? Monroe the handful of games so far for the Bucks?? Greg Monroe > Robin Lopez. Case closed...And you know what, pal -- offense is a critical part of the game. If you don't put the ball in the hole more than your opponent, you don't win. You're damn right I'm concerned about the offense esp. during this whole swoon we've been in the past few games. Lopez stepped up yesterday and so did Galloway and we BARELY squeaked out a win on our home floor. We played terribly again yesterday overall.

You replied to mreinman and didn't mention anything about Monroe's defense... again.

Smh..Ok, Marty. This one's for you, sire, since you love being snarky with me all the time when you do choose to engage me for whatever reason:

(1) I'll say it again with complete conviction -- ability-wise, to me, there's not that much difference between Cole Aldrich and Robin Lopez. I said it, I said it again and I stand by it. Certainly not a $12.5mm difference/year in salary or whatever the hell it is. How is that a joke?!? What's Lopez that much better at than Cole? Tell me! To me, they're very similar -- both the same age, about the same size, Cole might be even quicker (not say too much though--they're both not know for their quickness), about equal shot-blocking presence (something Cole was known for and excelled at in college--I might even take Cole here), similar offense players (both aren't great, both look slightly awkward on the offense end), both are even good FT shooters surprisingly. The similarities are uncanny, more than I originally though in fact. Robin Lopez has gotten a legit chance to play in the NBA, Cole Aldrich really hasn't. That's the main difference I can see. Give Cole Aldrich 27 mins a game--I bet he could put up 10 and 5 with a block a game (he's never gotten anything close to that. Let me ask you--when he got extra burn here, did he play well? We had posts upon posts here talking about how he should be playing more, esp. his 1st yr here)..If you see it differently, cool. Let's talk about it with getting snide with each other. This is how I see it and that's not mimicking anyone else's ideas mind you (there's your joke)--those are my thoughts 100%, just like everything I choose to share on this board.

The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison, otherwise Cole wouldn't be cut, signed, and minimalized to 14th man, 3rd string backup. I've never seen a player with a negative PER, he's got it this year so far.

Finestrg wrote:(2) Do you honestly think I don't fully understand that Greg Monroe's not some great defender? Come on, man. Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest. Some players, you look to get different things out of--for this dude Monroe, it's interior scoring and rebounding, and you know what--he's pretty damn good in both areas (borderline all-star level in both areas), better than anything Robin Lopez excels at.. Again, my opinion, but I'll personally take that to the bank. I'm intrigued by GM's offense, the impact he can have on a game offensively. If other people don't care about points, great, good for them. I want a few reliable offensive players on this team that we can turn to for some points. If you don't have that, you're dead in the water. That's what I think about with Greg Monroe, not the fact that he's not some great defender, OK? I mean you're taking me to task again on something so there it is soup to nuts so there's no confusion. Now Walt brings up good food for thought basically saying, "well, it's really Lopez + KOQ vs. Monroe." OK, I'll go along with that. But you can also say how 'bout Greg Monroe/Cole Aldrich vs. Lopez/O'Quinn, right?

And I choose not to respond to reinman any further because he was rude and discourteous, a few times now, and I just don't have time for that **** anymore from the few bad eggs in the carton around here.

Substitute the word "Defense" for "Offense" and "Rolo" for "Monroe" and you can almost make the same argument as above.

I've never seen someone only want to care about one side of the court, that's a crazy argument.

Seriously, I don't think mreinman or I were trying to be snarky or rude or whatever.

Who the heck is saying I only care about one side of the court?? I never said that. I thought we were talking about a player comparison between two specific players, Greg Monroe vs. Robin Lopez?? Stop putting words in my mouth, Ok? When did I ever talk about minimizing defense? I've advocating adding plenty of defensive-minded players in the past. Recent past in fact -- Jordan Bachynski, Jeff Withey in the middle, Thanasis Antetokounmpo out on the wing...And no, imo, you CAN'T make the same argument. My point was that Greg Monroe's key strengths outweigh Robin Lopez's strengths. I thought I made that clear. Fact of the matter is I've made my position crystal clear--you're arguing just to argue..Again, I'd rather have GM's almost all-star level interior scoring and rebounding over what Robin Lopez brings to the table (and no offense to Lopez btw--he's a Knick, plays for my team. I'm not trying to give him a hard time. Just being objective). And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

And seriously, ah yeah, you were both rude. It's always been esp. surprising coming from you, the moderator, but whatever. It is what it is. That's Ok, it's what I expect from you now..."Weak post," "mimicking of others ideas" (that's a hot one, wow), "that's a joke"...Just not the way I choose to talk to people unless provoked.

When you were talking about Monroe you were certainly only talking about one side of the court. No getting around that. Your words: "Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest." I took that to mean you only care about one side of the court with Monroe.

And you have lost all respect from me comparing anyone to Cole or thinking that Cole is a viable NBA player. That's just a silly argument.

Finestrg wrote:And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

And I don't understand what you are saying any more. My words were: "The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison" and you followed that up by mixing in Monroe but using the name Lopez.

Finestrg wrote:Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

yeah. 2 games. 3.2 minutes per game. That's how awful Doc Rivers thinks of Cole. And pretty much EVERY OTHER NBA COACH he has had outside of a 17 winning team that didn't have anyone else to play.

babyKnicks wrote:yes, cole was a bit bunk when he got more minutes...we rooted like heck for him and similar to Jorts, he was someone we just wanted to love, but seeing how Kristaps is, you realize that some people have it and some people just don't.

With respect to lopez, he's slowly showing more and more that he's a legit defensive minded, screen setting, capable scoring center...posting quiet/ugly double doubles that, looking at salaries thrown around the league for less talent, is earning his money big time.

After 7 games against playoff teams, i'm happy with 3-4 and missing affalo.

Monroe is better than lopez, but not better for the knicks for the money.

Plus as others have expressed, Phil got better value for the money and was able to get more than one player for the cost of just Monroe. It's one thing to pay a premium for an elite defender and rebounder like DeAndre Jordan but Phil likely felt he could do better than to spend big on Monroe. Phil really was more concerned with the defensive end of the floor so in the end RoLo made a lot of sense.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Not trying to rip Lopez--dude is what he is, man. He's a pretty heady player who's trying out there and I respect the effort...but the fact of the matter is Greg Monroe is a better player than Robin Lopez. Lopez is a slight step up from Cole Aldrich (and that's debatable). Greg Monroe is a legit offensive presence on the interior and I think he's a better rebounder than Lopez too. Lopez isn't capable of 15/10 minimum (maybe closer to 20/10 if given enough shot-attempts and mins.) like Monroe is. And what was Monroe's reduced max again? $16mm a season, somewhere around there right? Man, for the $2.5-3mm more a year we could've gotten a much better player. Oh well. If Monroe truly didn't want to play here, OK, nothing we can do about that but if we really didn't offer this man the max (again, a reduced max) and we never bothered to tell him why and our thinking on the matter (did we plan on using the money to get another good player like an Afflalo or D-Will--at least that's a good reason) then Phil's nuts. Simple as that. I know the Knicks have said they offered the max and his agent said so but part of me still feels like we may not have. I dunno--it was the 1st thing reported and where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

weak post man! You completely ignored every part of the game other than offense.

Monroe is an horrendous defender.

Did you watch the game yesterday?

Weak my ass. You're weak!! And yes I did watch the game yesterday!! Lopez was good yesterday. I actually gave him credit for his effort and being fairly heady out there so far.. Have you watched Robin Lopez play all season though? Monroe play for the Pistons? Monroe the handful of games so far for the Bucks?? Greg Monroe > Robin Lopez. Case closed...And you know what, pal -- offense is a critical part of the game. If you don't put the ball in the hole more than your opponent, you don't win. You're damn right I'm concerned about the offense esp. during this whole swoon we've been in the past few games. Lopez stepped up yesterday and so did Galloway and we BARELY squeaked out a win on our home floor. We played terribly again yesterday overall.

You replied to mreinman and didn't mention anything about Monroe's defense... again.

Smh..Ok, Marty. This one's for you, sire, since you love being snarky with me all the time when you do choose to engage me for whatever reason:

(1) I'll say it again with complete conviction -- ability-wise, to me, there's not that much difference between Cole Aldrich and Robin Lopez. I said it, I said it again and I stand by it. Certainly not a $12.5mm difference/year in salary or whatever the hell it is. How is that a joke?!? What's Lopez that much better at than Cole? Tell me! To me, they're very similar -- both the same age, about the same size, Cole might be even quicker (not say too much though--they're both not know for their quickness), about equal shot-blocking presence (something Cole was known for and excelled at in college--I might even take Cole here), similar offense players (both aren't great, both look slightly awkward on the offense end), both are even good FT shooters surprisingly. The similarities are uncanny, more than I originally though in fact. Robin Lopez has gotten a legit chance to play in the NBA, Cole Aldrich really hasn't. That's the main difference I can see. Give Cole Aldrich 27 mins a game--I bet he could put up 10 and 5 with a block a game (he's never gotten anything close to that. Let me ask you--when he got extra burn here, did he play well? We had posts upon posts here talking about how he should be playing more, esp. his 1st yr here)..If you see it differently, cool. Let's talk about it with getting snide with each other. This is how I see it and that's not mimicking anyone else's ideas mind you (there's your joke)--those are my thoughts 100%, just like everything I choose to share on this board.

The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison, otherwise Cole wouldn't be cut, signed, and minimalized to 14th man, 3rd string backup. I've never seen a player with a negative PER, he's got it this year so far.

Finestrg wrote:(2) Do you honestly think I don't fully understand that Greg Monroe's not some great defender? Come on, man. Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest. Some players, you look to get different things out of--for this dude Monroe, it's interior scoring and rebounding, and you know what--he's pretty damn good in both areas (borderline all-star level in both areas), better than anything Robin Lopez excels at.. Again, my opinion, but I'll personally take that to the bank. I'm intrigued by GM's offense, the impact he can have on a game offensively. If other people don't care about points, great, good for them. I want a few reliable offensive players on this team that we can turn to for some points. If you don't have that, you're dead in the water. That's what I think about with Greg Monroe, not the fact that he's not some great defender, OK? I mean you're taking me to task again on something so there it is soup to nuts so there's no confusion. Now Walt brings up good food for thought basically saying, "well, it's really Lopez + KOQ vs. Monroe." OK, I'll go along with that. But you can also say how 'bout Greg Monroe/Cole Aldrich vs. Lopez/O'Quinn, right?

And I choose not to respond to reinman any further because he was rude and discourteous, a few times now, and I just don't have time for that **** anymore from the few bad eggs in the carton around here.

Substitute the word "Defense" for "Offense" and "Rolo" for "Monroe" and you can almost make the same argument as above.

I've never seen someone only want to care about one side of the court, that's a crazy argument.

Seriously, I don't think mreinman or I were trying to be snarky or rude or whatever.

Who the heck is saying I only care about one side of the court?? I never said that. I thought we were talking about a player comparison between two specific players, Greg Monroe vs. Robin Lopez?? Stop putting words in my mouth, Ok? When did I ever talk about minimizing defense? I've advocating adding plenty of defensive-minded players in the past. Recent past in fact -- Jordan Bachynski, Jeff Withey in the middle, Thanasis Antetokounmpo out on the wing...And no, imo, you CAN'T make the same argument. My point was that Greg Monroe's key strengths outweigh Robin Lopez's strengths. I thought I made that clear. Fact of the matter is I've made my position crystal clear--you're arguing just to argue..Again, I'd rather have GM's almost all-star level interior scoring and rebounding over what Robin Lopez brings to the table (and no offense to Lopez btw--he's a Knick, plays for my team. I'm not trying to give him a hard time. Just being objective). And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

And seriously, ah yeah, you were both rude. It's always been esp. surprising coming from you, the moderator, but whatever. It is what it is. That's Ok, it's what I expect from you now..."Weak post," "mimicking of others ideas" (that's a hot one, wow), "that's a joke"...Just not the way I choose to talk to people unless provoked.

When you were talking about Monroe you were certainly only talking about one side of the court. No getting around that. Your words: "Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest." I took that to mean you only care about one side of the court with Monroe.

And you have lost all respect from me comparing anyone to Cole or thinking that Cole is a viable NBA player. That's just a silly argument.

Finestrg wrote:And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

And I don't understand what you are saying any more. My words were: "The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison" and you followed that up by mixing in Monroe but using the name Lopez.

Finestrg wrote:Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

yeah. 2 games. 3.2 minutes per game. That's how awful Doc Rivers thinks of Cole. And pretty much EVERY OTHER NBA COACH he has had outside of a 17 winning team that didn't have anyone else to play.

You know what, Martin--I could care less that you lost respect for me. That's first of all. All my respect for you went out the window years ago when you first starting talking to me like an idiot. You have never shown me any courtesy or professionalism since I've been posting here. Nothing but hostility whenever you address me. I laugh, it's comical. I think you lose sight of the fact that you're talking to grown men here, men with families of their own. Maybe you don't fit in that category but you better believe I do. Furthermore your fugazy moderation of this board leaves a lot to be desired if you ask me. Love your BS style of scolding some people, so rudely, for utter nonsense but not others for much worse stuff and then adding to the unprofessionalism yourself, like in this case. That's just typical you, bro. I know enough what to expect by now. You love to give it to me about my ideas but what have you ever really contributed on this board, honestly? And you're a guy with a lot to say...I haven't seen you contribute anything unique or discussion-worthy since I've been posting here, only smug comments about others' ideas or to pick a side in some heated debate that's going on (way to stay neutral and moderate--yeah!!). I know if I'm curious enough about the discussion and want clarification on something someone said, I'll ask. I won't be rude and start throwing around insults. I'll leave that for guys like you.

Regarding the "entirety of the NBA..." comment -- I said Lopez got the max by the Bucks but obviously meant Monroe. Sue me for my mistake. You knew what I meant, gimmie a break...I used your quote against you to goof on you in the same way you originally used it on me as if to say, 'ha, well multiple teams in the NBA thought highly enough of Greg Monroe to offer him a max deal--the Knicks and the Bucks, even if you didn't Martin.' GM got and received a max contract. Robin Lopez didn't (and I'd argue he got way too much from the Knicks). There's a reason for that.

As for my position on this player comparison, I'll try and spell it out for you once again since you're having such difficulty understand it. When I said "frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest" regarding Greg Monroe (and this is Greg Monroe-specific btw), I'm talking about his offense and rebounding which is borderline all-star quality. Fact. I'm not talking about his defense which I'm fully aware is suspect. Another fact: there's not one aspect of RoLo's game that's at an all-star level. That's my argument in a nutshell. Ok? I didn't lose you again, did I? Got me now? There are certain players in the league, even some star level players, that are incomplete players yet can still have considerable impact. Monroe is one of them. Z-Bo in Memphis is another. Carmelo Anthony is another... My contention is if you put the right defensive-minded role players around guys like these (along with some other guys that can score too--these guys can't all do it themselves--more on this in a sec.), they can be successful. I mean with Melo, that's the plan. Another contention of mine is you need good offensive players in this league to win with. It's imperative imo. You just can't have a subpar offense and expect to win. If you don't outscore your opponent, you won't win. Please don't mistake that for me saying you don't need to play defense and acquire/utilize defensive-minded players. I never said that and don't think that, obviously.

Regarding Cole Aldrich -- I don't care what you think of him, what Doc Rivers thinks of him or how Doc is using him. I'm talking about what I think this player, a guy I've followed since college, is capable of deep down if ever given a significant PT increase and he ever got his act together fully (this part is on him). I believe something close to 10/5/1 wouldn't be out of the question if he saw his minutes ever increased into the mid to upper 20s. Now there are variables -- (1) he hasn't played that much on a steady basis since college (save for games and small stretches here and there where he has show signs), (2) he would need to get himself back in top shape and sharpen his skills to where they were at one point (both have seen to have fallen off since his days at Kansas). I personally think one of the reasons he looked subpar last year with the increased mins. was because he was out of shape. I remember talking about that on the board in fact both the first yr. he was here and last yr. I really hope for his sake that he hasn't given up on himself, resigning to settle for a bit role. He's capable of more. There's millions of dollars here for the talking--look what Lopez got from the Knicks...Can't let anyone tell you how good you are or tell you what your limit is. That's gotta come from him and him alone. I know this -- the Cole Aldrich I remember at Kansas was a better player than Robin Lopez, hands down. (3) Lastly, it's about fit, like we've seen with quite a few players (Alexey Shved immediately comes to mind). He would have to fit on a team that wants him and foresees a bigger role for him. That's obviously not with the LA Clippers but I guess a job is a job for now...Hard to go on what we saw last year with the Knicks. He looked bad, worse than the first year we had him, mainly because imo, last year's team and environment was cancerous, maybe even toxic for all we really know (remember that play at the Garden where Quincy Acy committed a hard unnecessary flagrant foul on someone and Cole just walked the other way? That one play really epitomized last season's struggles). Last year's team was lost at sea and I think the experience took a lot of wind out of everyone's sails. Should that have happened, esp. to a young player trying to hang on and build a name for himself in this league? Of course not. Nevertheless, I think it did. Guys were just playing out the season last yr after awhile. The year before when we were much better as a team under Woodson, I thought Cole performed much better. This dude had good moments in a Knick uniform--just going off memory he had that good game @ Boston, a great game at home against Toronto and Jonas Valanciunas and he had a great summer league before last season where he rebounded the ball like a demon. I hope Cole hasn't gotten complacent & given up on himself. He's capable of more than what he's shown recently.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

babyKnicks wrote:yes, cole was a bit bunk when he got more minutes...we rooted like heck for him and similar to Jorts, he was someone we just wanted to love, but seeing how Kristaps is, you realize that some people have it and some people just don't.

With respect to lopez, he's slowly showing more and more that he's a legit defensive minded, screen setting, capable scoring center...posting quiet/ugly double doubles that, looking at salaries thrown around the league for less talent, is earning his money big time.

After 7 games against playoff teams, i'm happy with 3-4 and missing affalo.

Monroe is better than lopez, but not better for the knicks for the money.

Plus as others have expressed, Phil got better value for the money and was able to get more than one player for the cost of just Monroe. It's one thing to pay a premium for an elite defender and rebounder like DeAndre Jordan but Phil likely felt he could do better than to spend big on Monroe. Phil really was more concerned with the defensive end of the floor so in the end RoLo made a lot of sense.

did they offer monroe a contract? Thought they wanted to.

It seems to me that they NEVER offered a Max contract to Monroe. Could they have offered something less? Of course! There were so many holes to fill why not see if you could get Monroe to come for your price rather than the Max?

sorry I meant DJ not monroe.

foosballnick wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Not trying to rip Lopez--dude is what he is, man. He's a pretty heady player who's trying out there and I respect the effort...but the fact of the matter is Greg Monroe is a better player than Robin Lopez. Lopez is a slight step up from Cole Aldrich (and that's debatable). Greg Monroe is a legit offensive presence on the interior and I think he's a better rebounder than Lopez too. Lopez isn't capable of 15/10 minimum (maybe closer to 20/10 if given enough shot-attempts and mins.) like Monroe is. And what was Monroe's reduced max again? $16mm a season, somewhere around there right? Man, for the $2.5-3mm more a year we could've gotten a much better player. Oh well. If Monroe truly didn't want to play here, OK, nothing we can do about that but if we really didn't offer this man the max (again, a reduced max) and we never bothered to tell him why and our thinking on the matter (did we plan on using the money to get another good player like an Afflalo or D-Will--at least that's a good reason) then Phil's nuts. Simple as that. I know the Knicks have said they offered the max and his agent said so but part of me still feels like we may not have. I dunno--it was the 1st thing reported and where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

weak post man! You completely ignored every part of the game other than offense.

Monroe is an horrendous defender.

Did you watch the game yesterday?

Weak my ass. You're weak!! And yes I did watch the game yesterday!! Lopez was good yesterday. I actually gave him credit for his effort and being fairly heady out there so far.. Have you watched Robin Lopez play all season though? Monroe play for the Pistons? Monroe the handful of games so far for the Bucks?? Greg Monroe > Robin Lopez. Case closed...And you know what, pal -- offense is a critical part of the game. If you don't put the ball in the hole more than your opponent, you don't win. You're damn right I'm concerned about the offense esp. during this whole swoon we've been in the past few games. Lopez stepped up yesterday and so did Galloway and we BARELY squeaked out a win on our home floor. We played terribly again yesterday overall.

You replied to mreinman and didn't mention anything about Monroe's defense... again.

Smh..Ok, Marty. This one's for you, sire, since you love being snarky with me all the time when you do choose to engage me for whatever reason:

(1) I'll say it again with complete conviction -- ability-wise, to me, there's not that much difference between Cole Aldrich and Robin Lopez. I said it, I said it again and I stand by it. Certainly not a $12.5mm difference/year in salary or whatever the hell it is. How is that a joke?!? What's Lopez that much better at than Cole? Tell me! To me, they're very similar -- both the same age, about the same size, Cole might be even quicker (not say too much though--they're both not know for their quickness), about equal shot-blocking presence (something Cole was known for and excelled at in college--I might even take Cole here), similar offense players (both aren't great, both look slightly awkward on the offense end), both are even good FT shooters surprisingly. The similarities are uncanny, more than I originally though in fact. Robin Lopez has gotten a legit chance to play in the NBA, Cole Aldrich really hasn't. That's the main difference I can see. Give Cole Aldrich 27 mins a game--I bet he could put up 10 and 5 with a block a game (he's never gotten anything close to that. Let me ask you--when he got extra burn here, did he play well? We had posts upon posts here talking about how he should be playing more, esp. his 1st yr here)..If you see it differently, cool. Let's talk about it with getting snide with each other. This is how I see it and that's not mimicking anyone else's ideas mind you (there's your joke)--those are my thoughts 100%, just like everything I choose to share on this board.

The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison, otherwise Cole wouldn't be cut, signed, and minimalized to 14th man, 3rd string backup. I've never seen a player with a negative PER, he's got it this year so far.

Finestrg wrote:(2) Do you honestly think I don't fully understand that Greg Monroe's not some great defender? Come on, man. Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest. Some players, you look to get different things out of--for this dude Monroe, it's interior scoring and rebounding, and you know what--he's pretty damn good in both areas (borderline all-star level in both areas), better than anything Robin Lopez excels at.. Again, my opinion, but I'll personally take that to the bank. I'm intrigued by GM's offense, the impact he can have on a game offensively. If other people don't care about points, great, good for them. I want a few reliable offensive players on this team that we can turn to for some points. If you don't have that, you're dead in the water. That's what I think about with Greg Monroe, not the fact that he's not some great defender, OK? I mean you're taking me to task again on something so there it is soup to nuts so there's no confusion. Now Walt brings up good food for thought basically saying, "well, it's really Lopez + KOQ vs. Monroe." OK, I'll go along with that. But you can also say how 'bout Greg Monroe/Cole Aldrich vs. Lopez/O'Quinn, right?

And I choose not to respond to reinman any further because he was rude and discourteous, a few times now, and I just don't have time for that **** anymore from the few bad eggs in the carton around here.

Substitute the word "Defense" for "Offense" and "Rolo" for "Monroe" and you can almost make the same argument as above.

I've never seen someone only want to care about one side of the court, that's a crazy argument.

Seriously, I don't think mreinman or I were trying to be snarky or rude or whatever.

Who the heck is saying I only care about one side of the court?? I never said that. I thought we were talking about a player comparison between two specific players, Greg Monroe vs. Robin Lopez?? Stop putting words in my mouth, Ok? When did I ever talk about minimizing defense? I've advocating adding plenty of defensive-minded players in the past. Recent past in fact -- Jordan Bachynski, Jeff Withey in the middle, Thanasis Antetokounmpo out on the wing...And no, imo, you CAN'T make the same argument. My point was that Greg Monroe's key strengths outweigh Robin Lopez's strengths. I thought I made that clear. Fact of the matter is I've made my position crystal clear--you're arguing just to argue..Again, I'd rather have GM's almost all-star level interior scoring and rebounding over what Robin Lopez brings to the table (and no offense to Lopez btw--he's a Knick, plays for my team. I'm not trying to give him a hard time. Just being objective). And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

And seriously, ah yeah, you were both rude. It's always been esp. surprising coming from you, the moderator, but whatever. It is what it is. That's Ok, it's what I expect from you now..."Weak post," "mimicking of others ideas" (that's a hot one, wow), "that's a joke"...Just not the way I choose to talk to people unless provoked.

When you were talking about Monroe you were certainly only talking about one side of the court. No getting around that. Your words: "Frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest." I took that to mean you only care about one side of the court with Monroe.

And you have lost all respect from me comparing anyone to Cole or thinking that Cole is a viable NBA player. That's just a silly argument.

Finestrg wrote:And I guess "the entirety of the NBA" agrees with that statement -- Lopez was reportedly offered the max by the Knicks and was offered and eventually given the max by the Bucks (and my guess--if he had a higher max ceiling, some team would've went even higher than the $16mm a year or whatever he got). Lopez wasn't given a max contract and I'd be willing to bet we overpaid by a good margin just to get him so we wouldn't have had to come away from FA completely empty-handed.

And I don't understand what you are saying any more. My words were: "The entirety of the NBA disagrees with you on the Cole-Rolo comparison" and you followed that up by mixing in Monroe but using the name Lopez.

Finestrg wrote:Cole with a negative PER this year? Huh?? What are you basing that on? The 3.2 mins per game he's getting?? Don't just rely on pure statistics to make your argument. What do your eyes and gut tell you about a Cole/Robin Lopez comparison?

yeah. 2 games. 3.2 minutes per game. That's how awful Doc Rivers thinks of Cole. And pretty much EVERY OTHER NBA COACH he has had outside of a 17 winning team that didn't have anyone else to play.

You know what, Martin--I could care less that you lost respect for me. That's first of all. All my respect for you went out the window years ago when you first starting talking to me like an idiot. You have never shown me any courtesy or professionalism since I've been posting here. Nothing but hostility whenever you address me. I laugh, it's comical. I think you lose sight of the fact that you're talking to grown men here, men with families of their own. Maybe you don't fit in that category but you better believe I do. Furthermore your fugazy moderation of this board leaves a lot to be desired if you ask me. Love your BS style of scolding some people, so rudely, for utter nonsense but not others for much worse stuff and then adding to the unprofessionalism yourself, like in this case. That's just typical you, bro. I know enough what to expect by now. You love to give it to me about my ideas but what have you ever really contributed on this board, honestly? And you're a guy with a lot to say...I haven't seen you contribute anything unique or discussion-worthy since I've been posting here, only smug comments about others' ideas or to pick a side in some heated debate that's going on (way to stay neutral and moderate--yeah!!). I know if I'm curious enough about the discussion and want clarification on something someone said, I'll ask. I won't be rude and start throwing around insults. I'll leave that for guys like you.

Regarding the "entirety of the NBA..." comment -- I said Lopez got the max by the Bucks but obviously meant Monroe. Sue me for my mistake. You knew what I meant, gimmie a break...I used your quote against you to goof on you in the same way you originally used it on me as if to say, 'ha, well multiple teams in the NBA thought highly enough of Greg Monroe to offer him a max deal--the Knicks and the Bucks, even if you didn't Martin.' GM got and received a max contract. Robin Lopez didn't (and I'd argue he got way too much from the Knicks). There's a reason for that.

As for my position on this player comparison, I'll try and spell it out for you once again since you're having such difficulty understand it. When I said "frankly, I don't care too much about it, to be perfectly honest" regarding Greg Monroe (and this is Greg Monroe-specific btw), I'm talking about his offense and rebounding which is borderline all-star quality. Fact. I'm not talking about his defense which I'm fully aware is suspect. Another fact: there's not one aspect of RoLo's game that's at an all-star level. That's my argument in a nutshell. Ok? I didn't lose you again, did I? Got me now? There are certain players in the league, even some star level players, that are incomplete players yet can still have considerable impact. Monroe is one of them. Z-Bo in Memphis is another. Carmelo Anthony is another... My contention is if you put the right defensive-minded role players around guys like these (along with some other guys that can score too--these guys can't all do it themselves--more on this in a sec.), they can be successful. I mean with Melo, that's the plan. Another contention of mine is you need good offensive players in this league to win with. It's imperative imo. You just can't have a subpar offense and expect to win. If you don't outscore your opponent, you won't win. Please don't mistake that for me saying you don't need to play defense and acquire/utilize defensive-minded players. I never said that and don't think that, obviously.

Regarding Cole Aldrich -- I don't care what you think of him, what Doc Rivers thinks of him or how Doc is using him. I'm talking about what I think this player, a guy I've followed since college, is capable of deep down if ever given a significant PT increase and he ever got his act together fully (this part is on him). I believe something close to 10/5/1 wouldn't be out of the question if he saw his minutes ever increased into the mid to upper 20s. Now there are variables -- (1) he hasn't played that much on a steady basis since college (save for games and small stretches here and there where he has show signs), (2) he would need to get himself back in top shape and sharpen his skills to where they were at one point (both have seen to have fallen off since his days at Kansas). I personally think one of the reasons he looked subpar last year with the increased mins. was because he was out of shape. I remember talking about that on the board in fact both the first yr. he was here and last yr. I really hope for his sake that he hasn't given up on himself, resigning to settle for a bit role. He's capable of more. There's millions of dollars here for the talking--look what Lopez got from the Knicks...Can't let anyone tell you how good you are or tell you what your limit is. That's gotta come from him and him alone. I know this -- the Cole Aldrich I remember at Kansas was a better player than Robin Lopez, hands down. (3) Lastly, it's about fit, like we've seen with quite a few players (Alexey Shved immediately comes to mind). He would have to fit on a team that wants him and foresees a bigger role for him. That's obviously not with the LA Clippers but I guess a job is a job for now...Hard to go on what we saw last year with the Knicks. He looked bad, worse than the first year we had him, mainly because imo, last year's team and environment was cancerous, maybe even toxic for all we really know (remember that play at the Garden where Quincy Acy committed a hard unnecessary flagrant foul on someone and Cole just walked the other way? That one play really epitomized last season's struggles). Last year's team was lost at sea and I think the experience took a lot of wind out of everyone's sails. Should that have happened, esp. to a young player trying to hang on and build a name for himself in this league? Of course not. Nevertheless, I think it did. Guys were just playing out the season last yr after awhile. The year before when we were much better as a team under Woodson, I thought Cole performed much better. This dude had good moments in a Knick uniform--just going off memory he had that good game @ Boston, a great game at home against Toronto and Jonas Valanciunas and he had a great summer league before last season where he rebounded the ball like a demon. I hope Cole hasn't gotten complacent & given up on himself. He's capable of more than what he's shown recently.

The idiom "Grow a thicker skin" comes to mind. When you post on a public forum something like Cole Aldrich being better than Rolo you have to be prepared to get responses and not take them personally.

In regards to the OP. I don't care for Monroe. I just get the feeling of empty stats with the guy. Rolo us not an all star, but he seems like the type of player the Knicks needed around Melo and KP.

I've faced and handled things in my life others would run in fear from and completely shut down from. My skin is plenty thick, thank you very much. Mind your business.