clyderules wrote:Early on Korver would have helped.

Korver was at SF, though...you put Early in and you have to take out Anthony, or play him at another position.

Did Anthony start out on Kover, yesterday?

yellowboy90 wrote:ATL should have won that game since they had a day of rest and was coming off a lost. Good teams bounce back, see Memphis versus Indy.

Back to Melo: How many people watched the game twice? Going back and watching a game without the emotions is when you can really look and evaluate. I think he shot to much but a lot of them where open shots and missed layups. So many shots went in and out but when you are not shooting well you can't jack up threes while bringing the ball up. He also did not come high on several plays to receive the ball instead he flashed high. That can't happen continually because the strong side need him to get out high to reverse the ball. Melo was 10-20 from two and 0-7 from three. I don't think he took 10 bad shots but if you do not have the legs for three you should probably stop after 4 maybe 5.

Team: Fisher line ups and rotations are a problem. I do not know how anyone can play Thomas for so long and pretend he is a player that can play/defend multiple positions. Calderon did not play the 4th qtr which is good but the early hook of Calderon for Sasha was silly.

Melo missed a lot of open looks and layups...He also jacked up a few ill advised shots..He seems to be rushing his shots...I was happy to see he still have quickness going left and planting, getting to the rack..I don't get he whole Thomas getting big minutes thing...And coming in early in game 1...I know we need rebounding, I just don't get it...

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Am I the only one excited to see Melo move like the old Melo??..Plant his feet and cut for the first time since his surgery??..I was scared he was tentative in the preseason and first game that he might be in the LeBron mode of decline...He planted his feet, blew by his opponent, and cut off his left side..He is excited to see it's still there...80 games to go...

These guys aren't robots..The switch doesn't go on when the ball is jumped at center..If anyone here has played basketball for real, you know you lose your game after two or three days of not playing...8 month later, wake up guys...

Completely agree. I was trying to say this earlier. People are so quick to say he's lost a step, or whatever. The guy needs time to get back to playing basketball at this level.

You have to understand that some here live on riding Melo...They didn't see us down 20+ points in the 3rd qt and the reason for that..The saw Melo taking 27 shots in the box score..Nothing u can do about that...

where were you in the game thread, slick?

Naw...Was paying attention to the game..Don't like going to games either, too much distractions, can't rewind if I missed a play?..You missed my keen insights?

nope. never have never will. i rewind only to see who missed a defensive assignment rotating.

but the thing of it is this: unless you and i are both in the game threads then there's no way of telling in the moment who is seeing what. if melo bricks a shot or takes a stupid ill-advised shot then you have to admit he bricked a shot don't you? memory notoriously misrepresents. moreover, we get to see how your philosophy on the superstar/supporting cast works in game....

as it stands, the next game thread i will be able to participate in fully is next wednesday. maybe you'll "show up"

So your analysis of the game outcome is Melo bricking shots?..U also never mentioned Lopez lack of defensive rotation..You said he played great..Horford was draining threes with no one close to him..Lopez wasn't even in the picture frame..."Impact players" who makes 13 mil per have to be able to play more than 20 minutes a game...

lopez had some bad defensive moments but also some very good ones. Again, if your guards are forcing your bigs to constantly pick up their man then your bigs will not be able to recover to the three point line. Hence why you spread the offense with your bigs.

Our number one reason why we lost was our defense at guard.

second reason our tired legs and terrible 3 point shooting.

third reason was the selfish putz

Or Atlanta is just a better team...

and??

they play in atlanta.

Better teams usually win games...

and?

So you don't think that we could have won the game? Of course we could have. And of course Atlanta is a better team.

We got blown out...None of our guards, old or young, can defend their guards...Korver was taking wide open threes...Horford and Milsap is too much for KP and Lopez...They won 60 games last year and we saw why..Any team can win any game but they will beat us 7 times out of 10...

Did not see Milsap being "too much" for KP- he was 3/11 against him. I might have brought in Williams to play PF and have Porzingis play C against Horford. Seem to recall him on Horford once or twice and it looked like he could guard him. Lopez also had his way with Horford on offense, or did you choose to overlook that.

The two of them outscored Lopez and KP 31-28, and they are prime players for Atlanta-Milsap is a Max player, and Horford will get his next year.

Atlanta is a cohesive unit with a large core of vets who have played together. Wish we did not have to play them second game of a back to back, but those are the breaks.

Strange that you had no real comments at all after the Bucks' win, but have chosen to be so loquacious after the Atlanta loss.

blkexec wrote:

TPercy wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:

TPercy wrote:

mreinman wrote:aside from the turnovers, KP did not play that bad. His shot will come but at least he is not forcing them.

I think his productivity would be up a lot offensively if he was with Grant. He works well in those pick and roll situations where KP can pull up, draw a foul on the way to the basket, or clean up after a missed grant layup.

Move gallo and dwill / oquin to the starting lineup. ...kp and jose to the bench.

I prefer dwill because most teams SFs are PFs....and it's not fair to put a 7'3 guy on todays PFs. Plus in the 2nd unit its KPs team....melo is not in his way. Allows kp to grow into the triangle as the alpha dog.....which is the future. Deferring to melo is a bad habit to develop as afuture franchize player.

Jose will play better next to grant.....he can be the off guard instead of guarding quicker PGs. Gallo works because of his defense and 3pt shooting.

This team doesn't have the fire power to start off slow. ...the starting unit needs to be better than the bench to win games this season.

Excellent idea.I couldn't agree more. We should be making things easier for Porgy and not make him wonder where he is on the pecking order as a scoring option.We should be plotting for the future. Melo isn't, Grant and KP are. Grant, Calederon, Early/ Thomas,KP and O Quinn maintains HIGH ball movement, a lineup that can stretch the floor, can play on both ends, and a team that asserts Porzingis as the main scoring option. This would allow him freedom to figure out what works best for his game and provides decent cover with O Quinn in the post.
Sasha
Galloway
Melo
DWill
Lopez

Before Pre season, I would never ever agree to this, but considering that Melo has been playing some good defense and Dwill has improved since his days of the kings, I would consider it. The only negatives would be that Sasha as our first line of defense is a bit scary, but at this point, there is a negative in every lineup we choose. This rotation offers the least.

Sasha has been playing better, but hes a temporary fill in until Aflalo comes back. Add Aflalo to that starting unit, and we now have a more balanced starting unit and bench unit, while allowing KP to blossom like a flower, without restricting him on offense. The more comfortable KP is, the more impact he will have. KP has too much respect for Melo, so he will never develop that killer instinct we need from a franchise player, playing next to Melo.....Melo is not like Lebron......Melo doesn't make other better, thats just the truth......Thats why Melo needs vets around him, not rookies......

I hope I'm wrong, but Fisher might be the biggest road block for KP to reach his full potential. I think Fisher is not flexible enough, because he knows he's a rookie, and rookies are indecisive. So that stubbornness from Fisher, along with Melo's stubbornness to adjust his offensive game, when he is off.....Then add in Jose and Sasha as our front line of defense against athletic guards......Oh, and putting KP on quicker PF's......it's a recipe for mediocrity.

Other than that you are are right on the money with all your points and observations. KP is the guy who we hope will bring us back to stardom in the future,and he has all the attributes and traits to be an absolute bucket in this league. He is a very hard work intelligent 7'3 big man with the traits of a guard. As you said, he isn't going to learn what is right playing next to Melo.

Fisher's moves are infuriating as well. He won't bench Melo when he is clearly hurting the team, he won't put KP where he can work really well in, and his substitutions looked like a reminder of what he did last season.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Am I the only one excited to see Melo move like the old Melo??..Plant his feet and cut for the first time since his surgery??..I was scared he was tentative in the preseason and first game that he might be in the LeBron mode of decline...He planted his feet, blew by his opponent, and cut off his left side..He is excited to see it's still there...80 games to go...

These guys aren't robots..The switch doesn't go on when the ball is jumped at center..If anyone here has played basketball for real, you know you lose your game after two or three days of not playing...8 month later, wake up guys...

Completely agree. I was trying to say this earlier. People are so quick to say he's lost a step, or whatever. The guy needs time to get back to playing basketball at this level.

You have to understand that some here live on riding Melo...They didn't see us down 20+ points in the 3rd qt and the reason for that..The saw Melo taking 27 shots in the box score..Nothing u can do about that...

where were you in the game thread, slick?

Naw...Was paying attention to the game..Don't like going to games either, too much distractions, can't rewind if I missed a play?..You missed my keen insights?

nope. never have never will. i rewind only to see who missed a defensive assignment rotating.

but the thing of it is this: unless you and i are both in the game threads then there's no way of telling in the moment who is seeing what. if melo bricks a shot or takes a stupid ill-advised shot then you have to admit he bricked a shot don't you? memory notoriously misrepresents. moreover, we get to see how your philosophy on the superstar/supporting cast works in game....

as it stands, the next game thread i will be able to participate in fully is next wednesday. maybe you'll "show up"

So your analysis of the game outcome is Melo bricking shots?..U also never mentioned Lopez lack of defensive rotation..You said he played great..Horford was draining threes with no one close to him..Lopez wasn't even in the picture frame..."Impact players" who makes 13 mil per have to be able to play more than 20 minutes a game...

i gave my impressions as the opening to this thread. had you read them-- carefully-- you would notice that melo was but one entry among more than several. the main issue was calderon (and vujacic). then i question fisher's substitution pattern. so far as lopez, i did not say he "played great." i said he has some real floor impact. he's a workman-like, serviceable player, and will rarely have great games. he and o'quinn are going to be liabilities closing out stretch 4s. at least kp has the length to disrupt.

you have reading comprehension issues. you miss the main thrust of my initial post because you constantly are circling the wagons to protect melo. either that or you're just plain dumb. there was ZERO excuse for his shooting 27 times, at least 10 of which were stupid decisions.

I think the Atlanta game magnified our shortcomings...Perimeter defense and our bigs who don't recover or close out well..If they aren't under the basket, they are in no man's land...Crazy as it sounds, Melo has been our best defender thus far...Lopez' rebounding is atrocious...We need Afafalo back sooner than later to help defend...I wish we made a run at Austin Rivers instead of resigning Thomas and Admunson at 1.6 mil each..We could have paid them vet min after we made free agent runs...Rivers is a good perimeter defender...We will get destroyed when we meed teams with quick guards...

remove calderon from the equation and start galloway and you will see lopez and o'quinn have less difficulty chasing three-point shooters. so far as korver the guy needs a blanket defender on him, otherwise he will murder teams. so far as minutes played, the trend of playing nobody more than 30 minutes a night is where the league is going now. it makes eminent sense. fisher just needs to tighten his substitution pattern, which will come when he has seen enough of calderon.

you and others may recall that i formulated lineups this summer without calderon in them. people insisted that he had to be in there and i changed it to accommodate that scenario, but dependent on his being a spot-up shooter only. now everyone sees what i foresaw and is coming around.

That's not true..Teams are trying to keep guys between 30/35 mins per...We are playing guys 20-25 per..We need to find a core that can play those minutes to get familiar with each others game...Gallo is a decent defender and a spot up shooter..He isn't good at orchestrating or running an offense..And why is he trying so hard to be a "leader"..Dude needs to learn the game himself..I saw him talking to KP after a rough stretch and KP seem annoyed...Give the leadership gig a rest...

the spurs had no player play above 30 minutes a game last year except for leonard at a whopping 32 per game. they have a deep bench so they are ready to step in and step up when asked or needed.

fisher needs twenty-five games to figure out who is getting the 28-32 minutes a game. this season is the beginning of the road to respectability and "win-now" and "playoffs or bust" has to be put on the back burner. it's a brand new team, a new era, and it will take time.

i didn't like fisher's sub patterns last night, that much i think many will agree on. but he's feeling his way and he will not be listening to the likes of me or anyone else. that said, he has to see that calderon and vujacic are a liability and until afflalo is healthy has to play galloway 32 minutes a game as a starter.

melo 28 minutes
lopez 30 minutes
galloway 32 minutes
porzingis 24 minutes
vujacic 16 minutes until afflalo gets back, and affalo should not see more than 28 minutes a game.. (that'll cut into thomas's and calderon's minutes as well)

o'quinn 30 minutes
grant 22 minutes
williams 30 minutes
thomas 16 minutes
calderon 12 minutes

eventually the minutes load will increase for certain player and decrease for others as fisher begins to see which trios and duos work best together... but make no mistake that this is a process, a work in progress, a season of becoming good and learning how to win. a big concern is not only melo's health and conditioning but his mind. his poor shot selection is a sign of mental weakness and a lack of discipline.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Am I the only one excited to see Melo move like the old Melo??..Plant his feet and cut for the first time since his surgery??..I was scared he was tentative in the preseason and first game that he might be in the LeBron mode of decline...He planted his feet, blew by his opponent, and cut off his left side..He is excited to see it's still there...80 games to go...

These guys aren't robots..The switch doesn't go on when the ball is jumped at center..If anyone here has played basketball for real, you know you lose your game after two or three days of not playing...8 month later, wake up guys...

Completely agree. I was trying to say this earlier. People are so quick to say he's lost a step, or whatever. The guy needs time to get back to playing basketball at this level.

You have to understand that some here live on riding Melo...They didn't see us down 20+ points in the 3rd qt and the reason for that..The saw Melo taking 27 shots in the box score..Nothing u can do about that...

where were you in the game thread, slick?

Naw...Was paying attention to the game..Don't like going to games either, too much distractions, can't rewind if I missed a play?..You missed my keen insights?

nope. never have never will. i rewind only to see who missed a defensive assignment rotating.

but the thing of it is this: unless you and i are both in the game threads then there's no way of telling in the moment who is seeing what. if melo bricks a shot or takes a stupid ill-advised shot then you have to admit he bricked a shot don't you? memory notoriously misrepresents. moreover, we get to see how your philosophy on the superstar/supporting cast works in game....

as it stands, the next game thread i will be able to participate in fully is next wednesday. maybe you'll "show up"

So your analysis of the game outcome is Melo bricking shots?..U also never mentioned Lopez lack of defensive rotation..You said he played great..Horford was draining threes with no one close to him..Lopez wasn't even in the picture frame..."Impact players" who makes 13 mil per have to be able to play more than 20 minutes a game...

i gave my impressions as the opening to this thread. had you read them-- carefully-- you would notice that melo was but one entry among more than several. the main issue was calderon (and vujacic). then i question fisher's substitution pattern. so far as lopez, i did not say he "played great." i said he has some real floor impact. he's a workman-like, serviceable player, and will rarely have great games. he and o'quinn are going to be liabilities closing out stretch 4s. at least kp has the length to disrupt.

you have reading comprehension issues. you miss the main thrust of my initial post because you constantly are circling the wagons to protect melo. either that or you're just plain dumb. there was ZERO excuse for his shooting 27 times, at least 10 of which were stupid decisions.

I think the Atlanta game magnified our shortcomings...Perimeter defense and our bigs who don't recover or close out well..If they aren't under the basket, they are in no man's land...Crazy as it sounds, Melo has been our best defender thus far...Lopez' rebounding is atrocious...We need Afafalo back sooner than later to help defend...I wish we made a run at Austin Rivers instead of resigning Thomas and Admunson at 1.6 mil each..We could have paid them vet min after we made free agent runs...Rivers is a good perimeter defender...We will get destroyed when we meed teams with quick guards...

remove calderon from the equation and start galloway and you will see lopez and o'quinn have less difficulty chasing three-point shooters. so far as korver the guy needs a blanket defender on him, otherwise he will murder teams. so far as minutes played, the trend of playing nobody more than 30 minutes a night is where the league is going now. it makes eminent sense. fisher just needs to tighten his substitution pattern, which will come when he has seen enough of calderon.

you and others may recall that i formulated lineups this summer without calderon in them. people insisted that he had to be in there and i changed it to accommodate that scenario, but dependent on his being a spot-up shooter only. now everyone sees what i foresaw and is coming around.

That's not true..Teams are trying to keep guys between 30/35 mins per...We are playing guys 20-25 per..We need to find a core that can play those minutes to get familiar with each others game...Gallo is a decent defender and a spot up shooter..He isn't good at orchestrating or running an offense..And why is he trying so hard to be a "leader"..Dude needs to learn the game himself..I saw him talking to KP after a rough stretch and KP seem annoyed...Give the leadership gig a rest...

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:
That's not true..Teams are trying to keep guys between 30/35 mins per...We are playing guys 20-25 per..We need to find a core that can play those minutes to get familiar with each others game...Gallo is a decent defender and a spot up shooter..He isn't good at orchestrating or running an offense..And why is he trying so hard to be a "leader"..Dude needs to learn the game himself..I saw him talking to KP after a rough stretch and KP seem annoyed...Give the leadership gig a rest...

I addressed this in another post and indicated that, in essence, Fisher is searching for a core. It would seem that you either don't understand this or you're ignoring it for your own particular reasons.

Not many teams have had as much of a turnover in their game rotation as the Knicks have had. Fisher, his staff, and probably Phil, have to assess the situation and figure out who will end up getting the most minutes, and you hope it will be based on merit and team success.

RE Galloway...I'd rather have players communicate with each other than be silent. Were you actually privy to the full conversation? Maybe he was pointing out something that needed to be mentioned, and KP was reacting because he was angry with himself.

Leaders emerge because people follow them. If Galloway gains the respect of his teammates and coaches, and has an understanding of what Fisher wants...why shouldn't he assume a kind of leadership position on the team?

spot on quality posting right here. +1

Consider this number: the Knicks are outscoring opponents by 20.5 points per 36 minutes when reserves Jerian Grant and Langston Galloway are on the court, per NBA.com.

They are getting outscored by 12.1 points per 36 minutes when starters Calderon and Sasha Vujacic are on the floor.

Consider this: Grant is allowing opponents to hit 33 percent of their shots -- 4.8 percent lower than expected, per NBA.com. Opponents are shooting 47 percent against Galloway, which is is right around the expected number.

On the other hand, Calderon's allowing opponents to make 50 percent of their field goal attempts -- 9 percent higher than expected.

Opponents are shooting 58 percent when guarded by Vujacic, 14.5 percent higher than expected.

Not good news for the backcourt. Its why the the second unit is playing more minutes, entering the game sooner, and finishing.

I do understand why Fisher would want to establish a pecking order, and give the vets a chance to show they can handle the starting job. Porzingis is a top 5 pick so its not surprising that he starts, and its a good move by Fisher. I think Fisher would love to replace the backcourt but he wants it done in a way as to not disrespect the vets. Embarrassing vets is not a good way to attract talent. Fisher is a veteran PG, and Im guessing he is treating Calderon like he would want to be treated.

If things dont get better soon, Im sure there will be a roster shuffling, but I get the logic behind giving the vets a fair chance, and Im guessing that Fisher believes that two games isnt one.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://espn.go.com/blog/newyork-knicks/post/_/id/63345/should-derek-fisher-shake-up-the-knicks-backcourt

Consider this number: the Knicks are outscoring opponents by 20.5 points per 36 minutes when reserves Jerian Grant and Langston Galloway are on the court, per NBA.com.

They are getting outscored by 12.1 points per 36 minutes when starters Calderon and Sasha Vujacic are on the floor.

Consider this: Grant is allowing opponents to hit 33 percent of their shots -- 4.8 percent lower than expected, per NBA.com. Opponents are shooting 47 percent against Galloway, which is is right around the expected number.

On the other hand, Calderon's allowing opponents to make 50 percent of their field goal attempts -- 9 percent higher than expected.

Opponents are shooting 58 percent when guarded by Vujacic, 14.5 percent higher than expected.

Not good news for the backcourt. Its why the the second unit is playing more minutes, entering the game sooner, and finishing.

I do understand why Fisher would want to establish a pecking order, and give the vets a chance to show they can handle the starting job. Porzingis is a top 5 pick so its not surprising that he starts, and its a good move by Fisher. I think Fisher would love to replace the backcourt but he wants it done in a way as to not disrespect the vets. Embarrassing vets is not a good way to attract talent. Fisher is a veteran PG, and Im guessing he is treating Calderon like he would want to be treated.

If things dont get better soon, Im sure there will be a roster shuffling, but I get the logic behind giving the vets a fair chance, and Im guessing that Fisher believes that two games isnt one.

calderon is 34 years old and breaking down. he should come off the bench and be a spot up shooter against second-stringers. eight minutes a game.

Not sure why you even bothered quoting me.