JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Not true..At least when I think of all the players that I know came up..The defensive player was usually the one that improved on the offensive end..Ewing, Dream, Butler, Mase, Oak, Alvin Robertson, Mourning, Dumars, can continue to run a list of guys u may not have heard...But thinking of the other way around, I having trouble thinking of one..

Ewing, Olajuwon, and Mourning were offensive players too. Hakeem is in the top 10 in all time points, Patrick in the top 25. How are they only defensive players?

You think Ben Wallace had a better change of becoming a good mid range shooter than James Harden has by becoming a good pick and roll defender, or improving his steals per game? I certainly don't see that.

Ewing, Mouring, and Olajuwon were all defense first players who did have an offensive game as well..Their offensive skills vastly improved in the NBA..I don't think u can deny that..

Right - therefore they don't apply to my original point.

They went went from decent to great offensive players..Harden still is a horrible defensive player...

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Not true..At least when I think of all the players that I know came up..The defensive player was usually the one that improved on the offensive end..Ewing, Dream, Butler, Mase, Oak, Alvin Robertson, Mourning, Dumars, can continue to run a list of guys u may not have heard...But thinking of the other way around, I having trouble thinking of one..

Ewing, Olajuwon, and Mourning were offensive players too. Hakeem is in the top 10 in all time points, Patrick in the top 25. How are they only defensive players?

You think Ben Wallace had a better change of becoming a good mid range shooter than James Harden has by becoming a good pick and roll defender, or improving his steals per game? I certainly don't see that.

Ewing, Mouring, and Olajuwon were all defense first players who did have an offensive game as well..Their offensive skills vastly improved in the NBA..I don't think u can deny that..

Right - therefore they don't apply to my original point.

They went went from decent to great offensive players..Harden still is a horrible defensive player...

Ewing and Olajuwon had a PPG in college in the mid teens. That is a high number for that metric for a college player. Can you stop referring to them as just defensive players? Because that's clearly not the case. Not sure why you're arguing with facts. They had offensive talent from the start. You're acting like they were Hasheem Thabeet in college.

When I say defensive player, I am talking about strictly defensive players like Mutumbo and Ben Wallace. Do you agree that they would have a harder time developing a consistent jump shot than James Harden becoming a better defensive player?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olynyke01.html#college::none

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/frank-kaminsky-1.html

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Learning to play defense is more textbook and revolves around drive and effort. This is why guys Kobe, Michael and Lebron are excellent defensive players. They worked at it.

Offense is a different animal. Sure, you can work on a drop step or develop a go to move. But at the end of the day, its either you have it or you don't.

I agree - partially. However, you're omitting that Kobe, Michael and Lebron are all super athletic. You need athletic talents, that not everyone has, to be an excellent defensive player. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had drive and effort, but were only adequate defensively. There are very few excellent defensive players, even though a lot of players have drive and effort.

OldFan wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Learning to play defense is more textbook and revolves around drive and effort. This is why guys Kobe, Michael and Lebron are excellent defensive players. They worked at it.

Offense is a different animal. Sure, you can work on a drop step or develop a go to move. But at the end of the day, its either you have it or you don't.

I agree - partially. However, you're omitting that Kobe, Michael and Lebron are all super athletic. You need athletic talents, that not everyone has, to be an excellent defensive player. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had drive and effort, but were only adequate defensively. There are very few excellent defensive players, even though a lot of players have drive and effort.

How does being able to play a kind of zone make a difference, these days?

Gallinari is a guy who is not a tremendous athlete, but has made himself into a very good defender, and he is a 6'10"+ guy guarding 3's. You can study video of opponents and their tendencies- this helps a lot, but for me D is about awareness and effort.

Kaminsky is not a top of the line defender, but the awareness and effort are there, and he will be guarding PFs, I would expect.

You need an entire roster which buys into the team's defensive scheme and puts in a max effort, it is never about one player.

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

OldFan wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Learning to play defense is more textbook and revolves around drive and effort. This is why guys Kobe, Michael and Lebron are excellent defensive players. They worked at it.

Offense is a different animal. Sure, you can work on a drop step or develop a go to move. But at the end of the day, its either you have it or you don't.

I agree - partially. However, you're omitting that Kobe, Michael and Lebron are all super athletic. You need athletic talents, that not everyone has, to be an excellent defensive player. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had drive and effort, but were only adequate defensively. There are very few excellent defensive players, even though a lot of players have drive and effort.

Remember you have team D and individual D. You also have rules which make it difficult for even the best players to defend on the outside like players did back in the day.

How does being able to play a kind of zone make a difference, these days?

Gallinari is a guy who is not a tremendous athlete, but has made himself into a very good defender, and he is a 6'10"+ guy guarding 3's. You can study video of opponents and their tendencies- this helps a lot, but for me D is about awareness and effort.

Kaminsky is not a top of the line defender, but the awareness and effort are there, and he will be guarding PFs, I would expect.

You need an entire roster which buys into the team's defensive scheme and puts in a max effort, it is never about one player.

I keep hearing Gallo is a very good defender?? How do you judge this??..It doesn't show up in steals or block shots..He isn't a lock down defender..

Oh look here, we agree on something.

Like I've said before, Danilo Gallinari is a bad basketball player who thrives on neither side of the ball.

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

OldFan wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Learning to play defense is more textbook and revolves around drive and effort. This is why guys Kobe, Michael and Lebron are excellent defensive players. They worked at it.

Offense is a different animal. Sure, you can work on a drop step or develop a go to move. But at the end of the day, its either you have it or you don't.

I agree - partially. However, you're omitting that Kobe, Michael and Lebron are all super athletic. You need athletic talents, that not everyone has, to be an excellent defensive player. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had drive and effort, but were only adequate defensively. There are very few excellent defensive players, even though a lot of players have drive and effort.

Remember you have team D and individual D. You also have rules which make it difficult for even the best players to defend on the outside like players did back in the day.

How does being able to play a kind of zone make a difference, these days?

Gallinari is a guy who is not a tremendous athlete, but has made himself into a very good defender, and he is a 6'10"+ guy guarding 3's. You can study video of opponents and their tendencies- this helps a lot, but for me D is about awareness and effort.

Kaminsky is not a top of the line defender, but the awareness and effort are there, and he will be guarding PFs, I would expect.

You need an entire roster which buys into the team's defensive scheme and puts in a max effort, it is never about one player.

I keep hearing Gallo is a very good defender?? How do you judge this??..It doesn't show up in steals or block shots..He isn't a lock down defender..

Oh look here, we agree on something.

Like I've said before, Danilo Gallinari is a bad basketball player who thrives on neither side of the ball.

I think we disagree again..He isn't bad...I think Gallo is a decent player offensively and and not so defensively...He is streak shooter..It pretty hard for me to hear the guys who take Melo to the wood shed for his defense then praise Gallo...Gallo is ok...He isn't the liability that his scouting report says he is...At 6'10' he should rebound more than 5 a game..Defensively, he tries which is much better that a lot of guys in today's NBA..But because you try doesn't make you a very good defender...

He has not lived up to his draft position. That to me is a failure.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

OldFan wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Learning to play defense is more textbook and revolves around drive and effort. This is why guys Kobe, Michael and Lebron are excellent defensive players. They worked at it.

Offense is a different animal. Sure, you can work on a drop step or develop a go to move. But at the end of the day, its either you have it or you don't.

I agree - partially. However, you're omitting that Kobe, Michael and Lebron are all super athletic. You need athletic talents, that not everyone has, to be an excellent defensive player. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had drive and effort, but were only adequate defensively. There are very few excellent defensive players, even though a lot of players have drive and effort.

Remember you have team D and individual D. You also have rules which make it difficult for even the best players to defend on the outside like players did back in the day.

How does being able to play a kind of zone make a difference, these days?

Gallinari is a guy who is not a tremendous athlete, but has made himself into a very good defender, and he is a 6'10"+ guy guarding 3's. You can study video of opponents and their tendencies- this helps a lot, but for me D is about awareness and effort.

Kaminsky is not a top of the line defender, but the awareness and effort are there, and he will be guarding PFs, I would expect.

You need an entire roster which buys into the team's defensive scheme and puts in a max effort, it is never about one player.

I keep hearing Gallo is a very good defender?? How do you judge this??..It doesn't show up in steals or block shots..He isn't a lock down defender..

Oh look here, we agree on something.

Like I've said before, Danilo Gallinari is a bad basketball player who thrives on neither side of the ball.

I think we disagree again..He isn't bad...I think Gallo is a decent player offensively and and not so defensively...He is streak shooter..It pretty hard for me to hear the guys who take Melo to the wood shed for his defense then praise Gallo...Gallo is ok...He isn't the liability that his scouting report says he is...At 6'10' he should rebound more than 5 a game..Defensively, he tries which is much better that a lot of guys in today's NBA..But because you try doesn't make you a very good defender...

He has not lived up to his draft position. That to me is a failure.

Gallinari was on his way to being a very good player until the knee injury, and the potential screw up in the operation for that injury.

Don't understand how you think he is not a very good defensive player. I would say that it has, in some ways, overshadowed his offense. I watched him a lot in year where Denver lost in the 1st round after Gallinari got injured, and he was a centerpiece on their D. Just don't know what you have been watching.

He was actually picked around the right position, IMO. You don't factor in injuries, unless there is a pre-exiting issues, when evaluating. Think that Beasley and Mayo should have been picked over him? Lopez, perhaps.

Gallinari has become a much better driver, but his outside shot has been on and off, and his midrange and post games are weaker than they should be for someone his size, but he can finish on the break and is a good passer.

This will be a big year for him, and even though Denver is retooling, Gallinari is still considered a keeper. If he remains healthy, and is given more of a role on offense, you might just be surprised.

Ok , that was fun. Here is the catch tho. The first guy will anchor your D and you can build whatever team you want around him. Also there are options as for his frontcourt mate, see Monroe

The second player can be your number one option on the team and fit perfectly in the triangle. But you cannot build however you want around him, you need a defensive big man next to him otherwise you are stuck in mediocrity, unless you have a Lebron or Curry. Even they have good centers next to them. Who will you pair with such a player? Mavs did it with Tyson, once.

That's really the question, who will you pair each one of those guys with in the frontcourt with. And also Which type of player is more common in the NBA?

Remember how the media was bashing us because we didn't want to throw him into that Melo deal? Funny how no one in the media brings that up anymore...

nixluva wrote:

s3231 wrote:Ughhh...seeing Mozgov on that list makes me sick.

Remember how the media was bashing us because we didn't want to throw him into that Melo deal? Funny how no one in the media brings that up anymore...

They're not laughing at Ariza anymore either. Now all of a sudden the media is singing the praises of JR and Shump, when just a little while ago they were bad Knicks. Still Moz hurts a lot cuz it felt totally unnecessary and then Dolan sticks his nose in and gives up the store.

Exactly...so unnecessary and wouldn't have happened if Donnie at least was in charge.

The fact that Mozgov was worth two first round picks made it hurt even more when you consider we traded like 4 first round picks + a lottery pick in Gallo + Wilson.

Hopefully one day that trade wil no longer leave a bad taste :(