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NBAdraft.net puts Russell and Towns ahead of OK4
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mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:24 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:towns has only played 25minutes or more 9 times this season (and less than 20minutes 16 times which is very alarming to me), so to project what he does in 20minutes into 40 is pretty fluky. who knows if he'd be able to hold up either?

Yea that is the unfortunate thing about this kentucky team. There is no way of knowing what Towns could do in the 30+ mins OK4 sees every game

dont get me wrong bro, if i have the #1 pick, im taking towns. i think it's close between the him and ok4. i just get the feeling you're not seeing any of the question marks about towns, because some of them are valid. i know how you get your hopes up lol.

I feel the same. I'd love to have either but I have bigger reservations for ok4 in the NBA than Towns. Last time i was as deadset on a knick prospect it was on Bynum & Bogut. We could've used both guys but we drafted crue over Bynum. Had no shot to draft Bogut.

We get to debate until then

I keep putting the Al Jefferson question out there but everyone is avoiding answering it like the plague.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
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yellowboy90
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3/16/2015  3:25 PM
Do people know if OK4 can shoot or not? Like the other prospects who need to figure out his work ethic. Hs FT shoting is poor but can he work on it like Duncan has?

Also, regarding his defense I would do my best to get Brian Shaw on the staff and train him to play D as a more mobile version of Roy Hibbert. That's the way he will become a rim protector. He might not get the blks but he will alter shots.
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:27 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I'm torn between Karl Anthony Towns and Russell. I'd be thrilled with either.

I still think OK4 will be something of a bust. Brook Lopez is unstoppable on offense at times, too, so was Yao Ming, heck so is Cousins,... their defense meant their teams were never really title contenders though.

I want to draft a two-way player. Towns and Russell fit that bill. I tend to think the Knicks will get the second or third pick, rather than the first, just based on odds. In my ideal world, we get the second pick, someone else takes OK4 and we get to choose between Towns and Russell.

this is the thought process... one Im 100% on board with. However the one thing that trumps this is overall talent and the ability to dominate your competition. If you watch OK4 he does that, and no big who has scored like OK has ever failed at that next level. How good will OK4 be?

crzy... Brook Lopez? He didnt even score at 50% in college.

We arent talking about a "good" scorer in the paint. The EFF% OK is scoring at is sick.

I think it's just a lack of trust of Duke big men. Something about Mike K's system allows them to put up great numbers in college, that don't necessarily translate. Look at Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer and even Shelden Williams - all shot around 60% and put up similar numbers to Okafor. All were varying degrees of busts. You could argue Elton Brand had some great NBA years, for sure, but was he dominant? Was he ever a game-changing pressence?

And of course the big Dukie big man bust of all-time (imho) - Christian Laettner

I just don't trust those Dukies, unfairly or no.

Kentucky guys have a much better success rate. I don't love Calipari - but he does know how to get guys ready for the NBA. And don't the Knicks have pretty deep ties with Cal for a while now via World Wide Wes and CAA and all that?

Kinda like david lee putting up 20&12 for MDA. Those Duke bigs of the past are all solid NBA players but they are always so-so defensively
crzymdups
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3/16/2015  3:30 PM
mreinman wrote:

I keep putting the Al Jefferson question out there but everyone is avoiding answering it like the plague.

Well, Jefferson didn't go to college and was a mid first round pick, so in terms of evaluating his game before he gets to the league, it's a hard comparison to make. It took Jefferson three years to get playing time and put up numbers. Because of Okafor's high profile and likely being a top two pick, he's going to get scrutiny and playing time right off the bat, which Jefferson never had. Okafor could wind up a similar pro to Jefferson, but it's hard to tell where Jefferson was when he was 18 because we never saw him play against college competition.

¿ △ ?
fishmike
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3/16/2015  3:32 PM
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I'm torn between Karl Anthony Towns and Russell. I'd be thrilled with either.

I still think OK4 will be something of a bust. Brook Lopez is unstoppable on offense at times, too, so was Yao Ming, heck so is Cousins,... their defense meant their teams were never really title contenders though.

I want to draft a two-way player. Towns and Russell fit that bill. I tend to think the Knicks will get the second or third pick, rather than the first, just based on odds. In my ideal world, we get the second pick, someone else takes OK4 and we get to choose between Towns and Russell.

this is the thought process... one Im 100% on board with. However the one thing that trumps this is overall talent and the ability to dominate your competition. If you watch OK4 he does that, and no big who has scored like OK has ever failed at that next level. How good will OK4 be?

crzy... Brook Lopez? He didnt even score at 50% in college.

We arent talking about a "good" scorer in the paint. The EFF% OK is scoring at is sick.

will you be happy if he turns into Al Jefferson?

God no... but isnt nice to have that as your downside? Whats the downside to a guy averaging 10/6 in the NCAA?

Look if Towns has a beastly tourney (and I hope he does) these musing may prove meaningless. Im not here to promote my views, or sell my opinion on Towns. I simply see a HUGE risk bust with taking a guy based on skills (as opposed to production) who isnt dominating his competition. Is all that on Towns? Surely not. He has been called out by his coach. The game is too easy for him. He's floats alot. Granted, he's allowed to float, but there are a lot of things that Towns does in games that he wont be afforded in the NBA.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:37 PM
Towns has been dominating since getting called out by Cal dec 13 vs UNC but in only 20 something minutes because of their depth
fishmike
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3/16/2015  3:38 PM
mreinman, how would you feel about Al Jefferson's 20/9 if he shot 65% instead of 49%? And say perhaps he was top 3 in the NBA in TS% Where would rank Al then?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:40 PM
Amare is another high school big that would've benefited by learning Defense from coach Cal
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  3:47 PM
Coach Cal holds guys accountable when they don't play defense. He has NBA coaching experience and knows what prospects need at the top level.

Most college coaches today are happy just beating up on other college teams
yellowboy90
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3/16/2015  3:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  3:47 PM
mreinman wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:towns has only played 25minutes or more 9 times this season (and less than 20minutes 16 times which is very alarming to me), so to project what he does in 20minutes into 40 is pretty fluky. who knows if he'd be able to hold up either?

Yea that is the unfortunate thing about this kentucky team. There is no way of knowing what Towns could do in the 30+ mins OK4 sees every game

dont get me wrong bro, if i have the #1 pick, im taking towns. i think it's close between the him and ok4. i just get the feeling you're not seeing any of the question marks about towns, because some of them are valid. i know how you get your hopes up lol.

I feel the same. I'd love to have either but I have bigger reservations for ok4 in the NBA than Towns. Last time i was as deadset on a knick prospect it was on Bynum & Bogut. We could've used both guys but we drafted crue over Bynum. Had no shot to draft Bogut.

We get to debate until then

I keep putting the Al Jefferson question out there but everyone is avoiding answering it like the plague.

Yes, I would be happy with an Al Jefferson type of prospect. What seperates good from great are the little things. What if he is AL Jefferson but gets to the line 7-9 times a game. What if he raise he FT% to 65-70% going to the line at that rate? What if he works he but off and combine his offensive ability with a Roy Hibbert like game on defense?

I just don't know how Al responded to coaching or what his drive is. I don't know OK4's either but he has a great baseline to work with. I don't know how Jefferson Knee injury hurt his development either. Nothing is a sure thing.

What if Towns only becomes Tyson Chandler or bust out because He talks to his imaginary friend Carlito too much? Who knows.
mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:48 PM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:

I keep putting the Al Jefferson question out there but everyone is avoiding answering it like the plague.

Well, Jefferson didn't go to college and was a mid first round pick, so in terms of evaluating his game before he gets to the league, it's a hard comparison to make. It took Jefferson three years to get playing time and put up numbers. Because of Okafor's high profile and likely being a top two pick, he's going to get scrutiny and playing time right off the bat, which Jefferson never had. Okafor could wind up a similar pro to Jefferson, but it's hard to tell where Jefferson was when he was 18 because we never saw him play against college competition.

so you would be happy if he ended being as good as Jefferson?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
BigRedDog
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3/16/2015  3:49 PM
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=50696

Towns--Negatives – Outside of his jumper which he hasn’t been able to consistently flex thanks the the strength of his team he has no NBA level skills. His post game is rough and he constantly looks out of control and spastic, his defense is great but he jumps for everything, he fouls a lot, and he makes a decent amount of boneheaded plays. Physically Towns has a strange top heavy build, clown feet, and a weak lower body. He’s been moved off the block pretty routinely when matched up against 260+ pound guys. This worries me a lot about Towns
OK4-Positives – The post game Jahlil Okafor owns might be the most developed one ever seen in an 18 year old. His touch is possibly the best I’ve ever seen inside, his handles are strong, footwork impeccable, and his power game is the best I’ve seen since Shaq. He is built like an all timer should be with amazing quickness, size, and strength while also not even looking like he’s had high level weight training or diets yet. He also seems to have an ability to dominate the offensive glass and with his touch it makes him extremely efficient on putbacks. This man also has a habit of attacking and killing NBA sized bigs. Most impressively he physically dominated the 7-0 260 pound Satchel Pierce on his way to a career high 30 points on 13-18 shooting while fouling Pierce out of the game against Virginia Tech.
Overall his game reminds me of Moses Malone. Now he doesn’t have any direct comparisons because it is not common to see a big man with a fully developed post game at 18 nor is it common to see a player this skilled lacking a jumpshot from the foul line extended. If he can improve his conditioning, increase his freethrow percentage to 65-70% and become above average defensively he will end up as one of the best players to ever lace them up.

fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:50 PM
I'd be fine if ok4 turned out to be a similar player to Al. Expecting more is not realistic. There are only so many Duncan & Davis
mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:51 PM
fishmike wrote:mreinman, how would you feel about Al Jefferson's 20/9 if he shot 65% instead of 49%? And say perhaps he was top 3 in the NBA in TS% Where would rank Al then?

Offensively, I would love him. It will never happen with his skill set. I don't expect that to happen in the NBA with OK4 either. He is gonna go up against some tough and big defenders who are gonna push him out, and when they do, will he be able to hit a jumper from 15 feet?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
gunsnewing
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3/16/2015  3:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  3:54 PM
A disappointment would be if OK4 is Sullinger but he's clearly better. Al Jefferson/boozer/Brand downside would be fine. Better than a lot of high draft busts. Heck Sullinger is better than the bennett, Dario,SKITAS of the world.

I still prefer Towns upside. MONROE can give us Ok4's production with a little more defense
mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:52 PM
BigRedDog wrote:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=50696

Towns--Negatives – Outside of his jumper which he hasn’t been able to consistently flex thanks the the strength of his team he has no NBA level skills. His post game is rough and he constantly looks out of control and spastic, his defense is great but he jumps for everything, he fouls a lot, and he makes a decent amount of boneheaded plays. Physically Towns has a strange top heavy build, clown feet, and a weak lower body. He’s been moved off the block pretty routinely when matched up against 260+ pound guys. This worries me a lot about Towns
OK4-Positives – The post game Jahlil Okafor owns might be the most developed one ever seen in an 18 year old. His touch is possibly the best I’ve ever seen inside, his handles are strong, footwork impeccable, and his power game is the best I’ve seen since Shaq. He is built like an all timer should be with amazing quickness, size, and strength while also not even looking like he’s had high level weight training or diets yet. He also seems to have an ability to dominate the offensive glass and with his touch it makes him extremely efficient on putbacks. This man also has a habit of attacking and killing NBA sized bigs. Most impressively he physically dominated the 7-0 260 pound Satchel Pierce on his way to a career high 30 points on 13-18 shooting while fouling Pierce out of the game against Virginia Tech.
Overall his game reminds me of Moses Malone. Now he doesn’t have any direct comparisons because it is not common to see a big man with a fully developed post game at 18 nor is it common to see a player this skilled lacking a jumpshot from the foul line extended. If he can improve his conditioning, increase his freethrow percentage to 65-70% and become above average defensively he will end up as one of the best players to ever lace them up.

positives? Were there none?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:53 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:towns has only played 25minutes or more 9 times this season (and less than 20minutes 16 times which is very alarming to me), so to project what he does in 20minutes into 40 is pretty fluky. who knows if he'd be able to hold up either?

Yea that is the unfortunate thing about this kentucky team. There is no way of knowing what Towns could do in the 30+ mins OK4 sees every game

dont get me wrong bro, if i have the #1 pick, im taking towns. i think it's close between the him and ok4. i just get the feeling you're not seeing any of the question marks about towns, because some of them are valid. i know how you get your hopes up lol.

I feel the same. I'd love to have either but I have bigger reservations for ok4 in the NBA than Towns. Last time i was as deadset on a knick prospect it was on Bynum & Bogut. We could've used both guys but we drafted crue over Bynum. Had no shot to draft Bogut.

We get to debate until then

I keep putting the Al Jefferson question out there but everyone is avoiding answering it like the plague.

Yes, I would be happy with an Al Jefferson type of prospect. What seperates good from great are the little things. What if he is AL Jefferson but gets to the line 7-9 times a game. What if he raise he FT% to 65-70% going to the line at that rate? What if he works he but off and combine his offensive ability with a Roy Hibbert like game on defense?

I just don't know how Al responded to coaching or what his drive is. I don't know OK4's either but he has a great baseline to work with. I don't know how Jefferson Knee injury hurt his development either. Nothing is a sure thing.

What if Towns only becomes Tyson Chandler or bust out because He talks to his imaginary friend Carlito too much? Who knows.

I want the mile high ceiling not the guaranteed 7 foot ceiling.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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3/16/2015  3:55 PM
gunsnewing wrote:A disappointment would be if OK4 is Sullinger but he's clearly better. Al Jefferson/boozer/Brand downside would be fine. Better than a lot of high draft busts. Heck Sullinger is better than the bennett, Dario,SKITAS of the world

NO!!

We get one draft pick every three years, we can't afford to fail. I know ... its a crap shoot but that is our bed.

Thats why its great to be philly right now since they can afford to hit and miss with all their picks.

Chances of hitting big on picks are not good which is why you want to stockpile them.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
fishmike
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3/16/2015  3:55 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Towns has been dominating since getting called out by Cal dec 13 vs UNC but in only 20 something minutes because of their depth
yea 2 pts 2 boards 19 minutes vs. NC... he got called out by his coach after


You look at Towns and I see the same thing over and over... NOT READY. Is there a more common train amongst busts? Too many games he just wasnt engaged.

Guns.. your wrong about one thing. Towns is not dominating. He plays a role, an important role but its still a role. 4th leading scorer, 2nd leading rebounder on your team is NOT dominating. WHo is the best player in the NBA that that doesnt lead his team in rebounding OR scoring. Is that dominating?

I read Towns is dominating and all I hear is he's just your favorite player. He's not dominating. Please man... can we keep this real?

Guns.. or anyone else.. who is the best big Towns has had to deal with? I mean we can look at OK4 vs Kaminsky who is a Sr. and the best player in college. Can you post some highlights of who the best big Towns has defended? You know.. NBA types?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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3/16/2015  3:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  4:00 PM
Just trying to use logic here. If Jahill Okafor was the same player Al Jefferson was--exactly what would be horrible about that? Al Jefferson is/has been a really good NBA player all star level. Hes a consistent 20-10-1.5 50% I think Okafor is a better passer and will avg 3-4 assists but why would anyone be upset if we had the next Al Jefferson? I think Jahill has more offensive upside than Al. I could easily se jahill in his prime as 25-10-4 assist 1.5 blocks--thats a nice piece for a team.
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