mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example

Another player comes to mind too!

Who's that?

JKidd

Don't know if you can quantify his impact on the 54 win team with metrics and stats. There's an example of metrics not being everything

he was the perfect metrics example ... he started the year and had a WS48 that was off the charts ... then, as he started stinking and his metrics sagged, so did the knicks ...

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Knicks will be using Analytics in their search for players to fill out the Starting Lineup this summer. They have to use everything at their disposal in order to put together the best team they can with their limited resources. Finding players who are efficient on both ends but will be affordable is going to be huge for this team. They actually have a full staff of men who are Metrics guys. The problem with the Knicks over the years has been Dolan's interference. Even tho Dolan says now that he believes in Advanced Analytics it his interference that works against anything good that could come of it. Perhaps now the team's staff can do their job without his meddling.

Owner James Dolan, in rehiring Steve Mills for a second stint with the team, told The Post’s Mike Vaccaro soon after the firing that Grunwald wasn’t well-versed in basketball’s new age of sabermetrics and technology, calling him “a classic GM.’’

Dolan didn’t mention Grunwald also has a law degree and formerly ran the Toronto Board of Trade.

“I think I’ve been one of the most involved in basketball’s advanced analytics since the late 1990s,’’ Grunwald told The Post via phone on the one-year anniversary of his dismissal. “I don’t agree with [Dolan]. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.’’

Many of those Grunwald hired have been kept around by new president Phil Jackson, but Dolan gave up on Mills as the Knicks’ leader in March. The bad karma of Dolan’s firing of Grunwald possibly spilled over into a miserable 37-45 season. Now Dolan is letting Jackson figure it out by himself. Grunwald never had the luxury.

Grunwald said. “What I’m very happy about is a lot of the front-office people [I hired], a lot of good people kept their jobs — Mike Smith, who is the analytics stats guy, who’s very good; [personnel director] John Gabriel; [director of basketball operations] Jamie Matthews. They’re all excellent at what they do. Phil always knew what it takes to win in the NBA and he’s got experienced people around him.’’

In addition Phil has Clarence Gaines Jr. who lobbied for Galloway and Mark Warkentien who is a metrics guy too. So the Knicks are all in on Metrics in terms of the staff Phil has around him bringing him the suggestions of who makes sense for this team. More importantly is how they apply this information to how they construct the team and how that player fits into how they want to play. It's got to be a comprehensive approach.

54 wins under Grunwald to 10 wins with the new saber-metrics regime..Impressive..

The current W/L record isn't how you should judge the prospects that they've brought in. Galloway is clearly a nice little find and can play in this system. To be fair they haven't actually finished building the team yet!!! This is the same false premise the media and some fans keep using to talk about this team. Everyone knew that the real team building was going to come from the Trade Deadline thru the summer and not the 1st half of this season.

They started with establishing the System and seeing who fits and then they cleared out some of the guys that didn't fit and that process will continue. It's the draft and Free Agency where they will really have a shot to get starting material for this team. It's a process and the more they continue to work at bringing in the right players that fit it should start to impact the W/L column. Right now the team is in need of starting talent but you have to give them a chance to actually shop first.

Woodson and Grunwald was quite successful with the roster they were given..They never got a chance to get "their players", yet they were successful..So now, I'm to believe we are on better footing because a system is in place and analytics will be used..54 to 10 isn't quite painting that picture..

Nixluva will always tell you the Knicks are in wonderful shape.
I don't think many people believe the Knicks now are currently using the metrics intelligently or that the current regime has shown good decision making.

So what am I to conclude since we were much more successful not using metrics..

successful? You keep riding the 54 yet you fail to realize how hollow that was.

We brought Kidd and the other geezers in here on terrible contracts. Kidd gave us half of a season and had us flying yet of course he crashed and burned and we crashed and burned. If he didn't retire then we would have been stuck with broken down kidd for another 2 years. This was like bringing in Amare @100Mil for .5 of a season of excitement.

Every new that that 54 win team was terribly build and was a short term success at best.

Are you really touting Grunwald as a good GM?

So if you can pick your team it would be Dolan->Grunwald->Woodson->Melo->Lottery->Trade-lott-for-Bargs

Oh ... and of course we had JR too. Who can ask for more?

The results were the results... U are what your record says you are...Ever heard that??

ah ... that one. Nope.

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Knicks will be using Analytics in their search for players to fill out the Starting Lineup this summer. They have to use everything at their disposal in order to put together the best team they can with their limited resources. Finding players who are efficient on both ends but will be affordable is going to be huge for this team. They actually have a full staff of men who are Metrics guys. The problem with the Knicks over the years has been Dolan's interference. Even tho Dolan says now that he believes in Advanced Analytics it his interference that works against anything good that could come of it. Perhaps now the team's staff can do their job without his meddling.

Owner James Dolan, in rehiring Steve Mills for a second stint with the team, told The Post’s Mike Vaccaro soon after the firing that Grunwald wasn’t well-versed in basketball’s new age of sabermetrics and technology, calling him “a classic GM.’’

Dolan didn’t mention Grunwald also has a law degree and formerly ran the Toronto Board of Trade.

“I think I’ve been one of the most involved in basketball’s advanced analytics since the late 1990s,’’ Grunwald told The Post via phone on the one-year anniversary of his dismissal. “I don’t agree with [Dolan]. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.’’

Many of those Grunwald hired have been kept around by new president Phil Jackson, but Dolan gave up on Mills as the Knicks’ leader in March. The bad karma of Dolan’s firing of Grunwald possibly spilled over into a miserable 37-45 season. Now Dolan is letting Jackson figure it out by himself. Grunwald never had the luxury.

Grunwald said. “What I’m very happy about is a lot of the front-office people [I hired], a lot of good people kept their jobs — Mike Smith, who is the analytics stats guy, who’s very good; [personnel director] John Gabriel; [director of basketball operations] Jamie Matthews. They’re all excellent at what they do. Phil always knew what it takes to win in the NBA and he’s got experienced people around him.’’

In addition Phil has Clarence Gaines Jr. who lobbied for Galloway and Mark Warkentien who is a metrics guy too. So the Knicks are all in on Metrics in terms of the staff Phil has around him bringing him the suggestions of who makes sense for this team. More importantly is how they apply this information to how they construct the team and how that player fits into how they want to play. It's got to be a comprehensive approach.

54 wins under Grunwald to 10 wins with the new saber-metrics regime..Impressive..

The current W/L record isn't how you should judge the prospects that they've brought in. Galloway is clearly a nice little find and can play in this system. To be fair they haven't actually finished building the team yet!!! This is the same false premise the media and some fans keep using to talk about this team. Everyone knew that the real team building was going to come from the Trade Deadline thru the summer and not the 1st half of this season.

They started with establishing the System and seeing who fits and then they cleared out some of the guys that didn't fit and that process will continue. It's the draft and Free Agency where they will really have a shot to get starting material for this team. It's a process and the more they continue to work at bringing in the right players that fit it should start to impact the W/L column. Right now the team is in need of starting talent but you have to give them a chance to actually shop first.

Woodson and Grunwald was quite successful with the roster they were given..They never got a chance to get "their players", yet they were successful..So now, I'm to believe we are on better footing because a system is in place and analytics will be used..54 to 10 isn't quite painting that picture..

Nixluva will always tell you the Knicks are in wonderful shape.
I don't think many people believe the Knicks now are currently using the metrics intelligently or that the current regime has shown good decision making.

So what am I to conclude since we were much more successful not using metrics..

successful? You keep riding the 54 yet you fail to realize how hollow that was.

We brought Kidd and the other geezers in here on terrible contracts. Kidd gave us half of a season and had us flying yet of course he crashed and burned and we crashed and burned. If he didn't retire then we would have been stuck with broken down kidd for another 2 years. This was like bringing in Amare @100Mil for .5 of a season of excitement.

Every new that that 54 win team was terribly build and was a short term success at best.

Are you really touting Grunwald as a good GM?

So if you can pick your team it would be Dolan->Grunwald->Woodson->Melo->Lottery->Trade-lott-for-Bargs

Oh ... and of course we had JR too. Who can ask for more?

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Knicks will be using Analytics in their search for players to fill out the Starting Lineup this summer. They have to use everything at their disposal in order to put together the best team they can with their limited resources. Finding players who are efficient on both ends but will be affordable is going to be huge for this team. They actually have a full staff of men who are Metrics guys. The problem with the Knicks over the years has been Dolan's interference. Even tho Dolan says now that he believes in Advanced Analytics it his interference that works against anything good that could come of it. Perhaps now the team's staff can do their job without his meddling.

Owner James Dolan, in rehiring Steve Mills for a second stint with the team, told The Post’s Mike Vaccaro soon after the firing that Grunwald wasn’t well-versed in basketball’s new age of sabermetrics and technology, calling him “a classic GM.’’

Dolan didn’t mention Grunwald also has a law degree and formerly ran the Toronto Board of Trade.

“I think I’ve been one of the most involved in basketball’s advanced analytics since the late 1990s,’’ Grunwald told The Post via phone on the one-year anniversary of his dismissal. “I don’t agree with [Dolan]. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.’’

Many of those Grunwald hired have been kept around by new president Phil Jackson, but Dolan gave up on Mills as the Knicks’ leader in March. The bad karma of Dolan’s firing of Grunwald possibly spilled over into a miserable 37-45 season. Now Dolan is letting Jackson figure it out by himself. Grunwald never had the luxury.

Grunwald said. “What I’m very happy about is a lot of the front-office people [I hired], a lot of good people kept their jobs — Mike Smith, who is the analytics stats guy, who’s very good; [personnel director] John Gabriel; [director of basketball operations] Jamie Matthews. They’re all excellent at what they do. Phil always knew what it takes to win in the NBA and he’s got experienced people around him.’’

In addition Phil has Clarence Gaines Jr. who lobbied for Galloway and Mark Warkentien who is a metrics guy too. So the Knicks are all in on Metrics in terms of the staff Phil has around him bringing him the suggestions of who makes sense for this team. More importantly is how they apply this information to how they construct the team and how that player fits into how they want to play. It's got to be a comprehensive approach.

54 wins under Grunwald to 10 wins with the new saber-metrics regime..Impressive..

The current W/L record isn't how you should judge the prospects that they've brought in. Galloway is clearly a nice little find and can play in this system. To be fair they haven't actually finished building the team yet!!! This is the same false premise the media and some fans keep using to talk about this team. Everyone knew that the real team building was going to come from the Trade Deadline thru the summer and not the 1st half of this season.

They started with establishing the System and seeing who fits and then they cleared out some of the guys that didn't fit and that process will continue. It's the draft and Free Agency where they will really have a shot to get starting material for this team. It's a process and the more they continue to work at bringing in the right players that fit it should start to impact the W/L column. Right now the team is in need of starting talent but you have to give them a chance to actually shop first.

Woodson and Grunwald was quite successful with the roster they were given..They never got a chance to get "their players", yet they were successful..So now, I'm to believe we are on better footing because a system is in place and analytics will be used..54 to 10 isn't quite painting that picture..

Nixluva will always tell you the Knicks are in wonderful shape.
I don't think many people believe the Knicks now are currently using the metrics intelligently or that the current regime has shown good decision making.

So what am I to conclude since we were much more successful not using metrics..

successful? You keep riding the 54 yet you fail to realize how hollow that was.

We brought Kidd and the other geezers in here on terrible contracts. Kidd gave us half of a season and had us flying yet of course he crashed and burned and we crashed and burned. If he didn't retire then we would have been stuck with broken down kidd for another 2 years. This was like bringing in Amare @100Mil for .5 of a season of excitement.

Every new that that 54 win team was terribly build and was a short term success at best.

Are you really touting Grunwald as a good GM?

So if you can pick your team it would be Dolan->Grunwald->Woodson->Melo->Lottery->Trade-lott-for-Bargs

Oh ... and of course we had JR too. Who can ask for more?

Grunwald had no money/cap space and only second round picks to work with. He built a 54 win team. GMs are supposed to win. Not sure what you can do when you have contracts like Amare's on the books to win but Grunwald did it. JR, Kidd, Melo, all were hurt, and Tyson had was a non presence in the playoffs. Not sure how you overcome that but only one of those guys aged out.

Kidd/Camby/Felton signings were horrendous.

Billups amnesty / tyson signing was awful

Bargs trade was one of the worst in history if you base it on plain stupidity

What move of his are you actually proud of?

It's foolish to think that this regime can't build a winning team just because the attempt to make it work still using a ton of the holdovers didn't work. This is going to be a nearly fresh start. It's about as close to a complete rebuild as we can expect in NY. We're moving forward with a roster that will be completely of Phil and his staff's making minus the Dolan interference.
We've never seen that in the Dolan era. From the trade going forward is a new day.

holfresh wrote:Hey Bonn, would you say that Calderon might have been brought in because of metrics?

would you say that Bargs was brought in based on the eye test?

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...

So that was the whole point you were trying to make? You're not really disagreeing with anyone here (maybe with the exception of the overhyped comment). With the exception of a couple of bad teams, everyone has analytics departments now and the only real discussion is which ones to use and how (not whether to use them)

It's seems like the first thing you go to when evaluating a player..For me, its more important to know that Harden compiled his stats at the free throw line than during game action...Or he doesn't play well in the playoffs when faced with better defenders who had time to study his game...

it's no secret that he has needed to tighten up his game in the playoffs with his shot selection and his defensive effort. i think last year was a good wakeup call for harden and i look forward to seeing him play this year in the playoffs to see how he can elevate his game.

there are plenty of junior varsity season players who get exposed in the playoffs... some even in a knick uniform.