Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

misterearl wrote:Continuity

Knixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.

Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?

No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.

horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill

that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt

then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player

and

korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.

they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.

here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.

how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?

carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.

This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.

i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?

i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.

so you don't think that he is good enough to start on a championship team??

no.

i see a guy who is actually closer to a boozer/josh smith type of player than a lebron/durant player.

i know... right?

Your goal has always been to turn these threads into Melo bash threads. We aren't even talking about superstar, #1 option, or anything, just "core player" and you try to bring him down to a level below starting caliber or whatever lol. You will argue he isn't even an NBA player and he belongs in the Dleague if that was what the thread was about. Saying you don't like the guy and don't think he's a star is understandable, as it is up for interpretation. But not a starting caliber player or capable core player just destroys any credibility as a poster that you have or had.

he is closer to josh smith and carlos boozer in terms of floor impact, and further from lebron james and kevin durant.

do you agree with that measure?

based on WS48 he is smack in between.

His 162 WS48 as a knick is 3rd star quality and way above average.

Based on WS48, he's quite close to Boozer actually. Both their career #s and this season #s are pretty close.
(I'm not saying that's the only metric I'd use, though it's an important one.)

Last season he was 13th overall in win shares. But no matter what, people can find any data to support any agenda either way.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

misterearl wrote:Continuity

Knixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.

Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?

No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.

horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill

that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt

then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player

and

korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.

they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.

here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.

how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?

carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.

This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.

i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?

i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.

so you don't think that he is good enough to start on a championship team??

no.

i see a guy who is actually closer to a boozer/josh smith type of player than a lebron/durant player.

i know... right?

Your goal has always been to turn these threads into Melo bash threads. We aren't even talking about superstar, #1 option, or anything, just "core player" and you try to bring him down to a level below starting caliber or whatever lol. You will argue he isn't even an NBA player and he belongs in the Dleague if that was what the thread was about. Saying you don't like the guy and don't think he's a star is understandable, as it is up for interpretation. But not a starting caliber player or capable core player just destroys any credibility as a poster that you have or had.

he is closer to josh smith and carlos boozer in terms of floor impact, and further from lebron james and kevin durant.

do you agree with that measure?

based on WS48 he is smack in between.

His 162 WS48 as a knick is 3rd star quality and way above average.

Based on WS48, he's quite close to Boozer actually. Both their career #s and this season #s are pretty close.
(I'm not saying that's the only metric I'd use, though it's an important one.)

Last season he was 13th overall in win shares. But no matter what, people can find any data to support any agenda either way.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

misterearl wrote:Continuity

Knixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.

Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?

No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.

horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill

that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt

then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player

and

korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.

they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.

here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.

how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?

carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.

This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.

i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?

i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.

so you don't think that he is good enough to start on a championship team??

no.

i see a guy who is actually closer to a boozer/josh smith type of player than a lebron/durant player.

i know... right?

Your goal has always been to turn these threads into Melo bash threads. We aren't even talking about superstar, #1 option, or anything, just "core player" and you try to bring him down to a level below starting caliber or whatever lol. You will argue he isn't even an NBA player and he belongs in the Dleague if that was what the thread was about. Saying you don't like the guy and don't think he's a star is understandable, as it is up for interpretation. But not a starting caliber player or capable core player just destroys any credibility as a poster that you have or had.

he is closer to josh smith and carlos boozer in terms of floor impact, and further from lebron james and kevin durant.

do you agree with that measure?

based on WS48 he is smack in between.

His 162 WS48 as a knick is 3rd star quality and way above average.

Based on WS48, he's quite close to Boozer actually. Both their career #s and this season #s are pretty close.
(I'm not saying that's the only metric I'd use, though it's an important one.)

Last season he was 13th overall in win shares. But no matter what, people can find any data to support any agenda either way.

A) We were talking about WS48, not total win shares, which is confounded with playing time.
B) That doesn't contradict anything I said anyway. If the discussion was specifically about who played better last season, the answer would be that Melo was light years ahead of Boozer (but light years behind Lebron and Durant too). Boozer may just be aging one year ahead of Melo. Hopefully, Melo can get back to normal though.

Yes i understand that, but WS48 can show many bench players who put up empty numbers in limited time as well. It's easy to get fancy with the numbers, and forget to look at the players production playing real minutes over a long period of time. When you look at WS overall, you generally see the best players in the league at the top.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

misterearl wrote:Continuity

Knixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.

Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?

No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.

horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill

that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt

then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player

and

korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.

they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.

here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.

how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?

carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.

This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.

i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?

i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.

so you don't think that he is good enough to start on a championship team??

no.

i see a guy who is actually closer to a boozer/josh smith type of player than a lebron/durant player.

i know... right?

Your goal has always been to turn these threads into Melo bash threads. We aren't even talking about superstar, #1 option, or anything, just "core player" and you try to bring him down to a level below starting caliber or whatever lol. You will argue he isn't even an NBA player and he belongs in the Dleague if that was what the thread was about. Saying you don't like the guy and don't think he's a star is understandable, as it is up for interpretation. But not a starting caliber player or capable core player just destroys any credibility as a poster that you have or had.

he is closer to josh smith and carlos boozer in terms of floor impact, and further from lebron james and kevin durant.

do you agree with that measure?

based on WS48 he is smack in between.

His 162 WS48 as a knick is 3rd star quality and way above average.

Based on WS48, he's quite close to Boozer actually. Both their career #s and this season #s are pretty close.
(I'm not saying that's the only metric I'd use, though it's an important one.)

Last season he was 13th overall in win shares. But no matter what, people can find any data to support any agenda either way.

last season carmelo was not even in the top 20 in win shares per 48, a truer reflection of his lack of effectiveness. moreover, the box plus/minus statistic has him ranked at 19th for the regular season, where his defense was not anywhere near the top 20 at negative 1.0.

translation: he is not a two-way player and therefore not a "core player." how many one-way players have there been who were core players? steve nash maybe? and before you say "dirk," dirk is a better player on defense than anthony and a far better offensive player to boot. dirk is a positive-sum player.

i consider anthony much closer to a zero-sum player.

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo = Jamal Crawford. Just bigger and fatter. And franchises all over the world known to be offering Boozer 90 million to sign.
It's all settled.

NBA GM's are dumb.

We saw Lin lift guys like Jeffries, Fields, Shumpert and Tyson. Melo has to buy in and not revert back to bad habits

Melo has his flaws and i've had my issues with him over the years, but it's FAR more important to fix the rest of the roster than to be worrying about Melo. We literally have to establish a new core to this team. We need a starting quality PG, SG, PF and Center!!! This is what Phil needs to be most concerned with fixing.

Following an Atlanta Model ie "Money Ball" is within Phil's ability to accomplish with his current options. Draft pick, 3 Solid Free Agents and maybe a trade using his trade exceptions. It's going to really be important to make smart decisions and we'll have to see just what they do. Gotta make every decision count.

nixluva wrote:The more legit players we put around Melo the more his assists should improve. Often he passes to no effect because guys either miss the open shot or turn down the open shot. This is a team problem and not so much just a Melo problem. Should he get better at being more of a team player, YES, but he's made to look worse due to the players he's been surrounded by most of his time here.

Melo has his flaws and i've had my issues with him over the years, but it's FAR more important to fix the rest of the roster than to be worrying about Melo. We literally have to establish a new core to this team. We need a starting quality PG, SG, PF and Center!!! This is what Phil needs to be most concerned with fixing.

Following an Atlanta Model ie "Money Ball" is within Phil's ability to accomplish with his current options. Draft pick, 3 Solid Free Agents and maybe a trade using his trade exceptions. It's going to really be important to make smart decisions and we'll have to see just what they do. Gotta make every decision count.

it is the responsibility of the best player to do whatever it takes to make others around him better. if he is incapable or incompetent in this regard then... why does he ask for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

and if it isn't his responsibility to make others around him better and he needs to get better players around him then, again... what is he doing asking for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

does he honestly expect to win without putting in the hard work required and making some genuine sacrifices? how is that digital athlete thing going to work out when he has left behind a losing legacy, or someone who simply gave up on the knicks?

nixluva wrote:The more legit players we put around Melo the more his assists should improve. Often he passes to no effect because guys either miss the open shot or turn down the open shot. This is a team problem and not so much just a Melo problem. Should he get better at being more of a team player, YES, but he's made to look worse due to the players he's been surrounded by most of his time here.

Melo has his flaws and i've had my issues with him over the years, but it's FAR more important to fix the rest of the roster than to be worrying about Melo. We literally have to establish a new core to this team. We need a starting quality PG, SG, PF and Center!!! This is what Phil needs to be most concerned with fixing.

Following an Atlanta Model ie "Money Ball" is within Phil's ability to accomplish with his current options. Draft pick, 3 Solid Free Agents and maybe a trade using his trade exceptions. It's going to really be important to make smart decisions and we'll have to see just what they do. Gotta make every decision count.

dk7th wrote:it is the responsibility of the best player to do whatever it takes to make others around him better. if he is incapable or incompetent in this regard then... why does he ask for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

Melo is who he is. I expect him to put forth his best effort to do all that he can to help the team win, but we have also accept him for who he is. He's not Lebron. He's a scorer and he does quite well in that role when he has a good floor leader and a decent team around him. He's not going to be that player who does it all but he can be a very good piece on a good team.

dk7th wrote:and if it isn't his responsibility to make others around him better and he needs to get better players around him then, again... what is he doing asking for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

Melo is paid what the CBA says he can make. He's getting paid what MSG is willing to pay him. It's not about him asking for Max money and it's not about the small discount. Let's also remember that Melo could've asked for a short contract where he could take advantage of the Cap increase which is going to be coming. His small discount actually locks him into the old CBA cap numbers which is a further savings for the team.

dk7th wrote:does he honestly expect to win without putting in the hard work required and making some genuine sacrifices? how is that digital athlete thing going to work out when he has left behind a losing legacy, or someone who simply gave up on the knicks?

Now you're just being nasty towards him for no reason. Who said he doesn't put in hard work or sacrifice? You aren't easily pleased by anything he does so I doubt he could sacrifice enough for you to be happy with him. At this point we know who and what Melo is. He isn't likely to change drastically at this point. It's not even necessary for him to change into someone he's not. The key is for Phil to build a good team and let Melo do what he does best. This is what happened on the WCF's team in Denver and for a while during the early part of the 54 win season in NY before it fell apart.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nixluva wrote:The more legit players we put around Melo the more his assists should improve. Often he passes to no effect because guys either miss the open shot or turn down the open shot. This is a team problem and not so much just a Melo problem. Should he get better at being more of a team player, YES, but he's made to look worse due to the players he's been surrounded by most of his time here.

Melo has his flaws and i've had my issues with him over the years, but it's FAR more important to fix the rest of the roster than to be worrying about Melo. We literally have to establish a new core to this team. We need a starting quality PG, SG, PF and Center!!! This is what Phil needs to be most concerned with fixing.

Following an Atlanta Model ie "Money Ball" is within Phil's ability to accomplish with his current options. Draft pick, 3 Solid Free Agents and maybe a trade using his trade exceptions. It's going to really be important to make smart decisions and we'll have to see just what they do. Gotta make every decision count.

dk7th wrote:it is the responsibility of the best player to do whatever it takes to make others around him better. if he is incapable or incompetent in this regard then... why does he ask for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

Melo is who he is. I expect him to put forth his best effort to do all that he can to help the team win, but we have also accept him for who he is. He's not Lebron. He's a scorer and he does quite well in that role when he has a good floor leader and a decent team around him. He's not going to be that player who does it all but he can be a very good piece on a good team.

dk7th wrote:and if it isn't his responsibility to make others around him better and he needs to get better players around him then, again... what is he doing asking for max money in new york with a meaningless discount?

Melo is paid what the CBA says he can make. He's getting paid what MSG is willing to pay him. It's not about him asking for Max money and it's not about the small discount. Let's also remember that Melo could've asked for a short contract where he could take advantage of the Cap increase which is going to be coming. His small discount actually locks him into the old CBA cap numbers which is a further savings for the team.

dk7th wrote:does he honestly expect to win without putting in the hard work required and making some genuine sacrifices? how is that digital athlete thing going to work out when he has left behind a losing legacy, or someone who simply gave up on the knicks?

Now you're just being nasty towards him for no reason. Who said he doesn't put in hard work or sacrifice? You aren't easily pleased by anything he does so I doubt he could sacrifice enough for you to be happy with him. At this point we know who and what Melo is. He isn't likely to change drastically at this point. It's not even necessary for him to change into someone he's not. The key is for Phil to build a good team and let Melo do what he does best. This is what happened on the WCF's team in Denver and for a while during the early part of the 54 win season in NY before it fell apart.

well phil said that melo had another level he could get to as a player. do you disagree with phil's assessment?

Then as the year went on and Melo didn't reach the next level

Phil told him he needs to "FLESH OUT HIS GAME"

So Nixluva back into the cage to run on the wheel