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Team is a fcking disaster
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VCoug
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11/8/2014  11:57 AM
nixluva wrote:
VCoug wrote:The reason this is such a big deal is because the whole plan is to go into next Summer with cap space and sign a big name free agent. But, no one will sign here if we're atrocious, which we are right now. We also lost our best chance to rebuild when we traded Tyson for Dalembert, Calderon, and a 2nd and refused to deal with Chicago. We possibly could have gotten 4 1st round picks in last year's loaded draft from OKC and Chicago if we had played our cards right and instead we attempted to improve the team this year. Sure, Calderon is hurt but as much as I like him he isn't single-handedly turning around this team. (And don't talk to me about Bargnani.)

It isn't crazy to think that things could turn around with a healthy Jose. I mean are you really just going to ignore the history and how much of an impact it's had when we got good PG play or just had a guy on the floor with Basketball brains Like Kidd? It damn sure makes a difference if you have a floor leader who showed in preseason that he was the one guy who really understood the triangle. He can help the team make better decisions with the ball and when he does have the ball in his hands he's a highly capable PG. When he doesn't have the ball he's a very effective shooter. It's 30 minutes of high quality, low TO guard play which we haven't been able to replace with him out. Jose would handle the playmaking a lot because our guards will send the ball his way since they know he's a better decision maker and they don't really want to be the guy directing everything.

No it doesn't solve all of our problems but it would be a HUGE improvement to have Jose back in addition to Prigs and Bargs. Kick Bargs all you want but he's another big who actually has skills that fit this system. We need all the offensive help we can get. We've seen this team struggle to get scoring and even last year Bargs was able to score the ball when they gave him touches. He shot 48.7% from midrange last year. He'd get plenty of looks from where he's most effective.

It would be an improvement but only from eyes-bleeding bad to merely terrible. Our point differential is currently -7.5 which is 4th worst in the league; only Philly, LAL, and OKC are worse. Per 93 possessions (league average) we're scoring 96.5 PPG, 21st in the league, and giving up 104 PPG, 27 in the league.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
AUTOADVERT
VCoug
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11/8/2014  12:00 PM
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Can we trade Melo for 3 first round picks and two young player and jut rebuild?

This quote, this post and the emotional NY fans that agree with this quick assessment is why the Knicks are in this mess. With no patients, there's no rebuild. Just jerk reaction moves to keep emotional fans like this happy. As long as the knicks have fans like this, they will continue to be in this mess....Regardless of the management turnover. Lets hope Phil doesn't fall into the same jerk reaction moves as his historical peers. These types of fans are the ones paying the high ticket dollar, which is why they actually run the organization. And why the knicks haven't resembled consistency for over 30 years.

Right, because our history is filled with moves where we trade overvalued assets for draft picks and good players on rookie deals. We haven't spent the last 15 years trading away future picks and guys on rookie deals in order to win right away.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
gunsnewing
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11/8/2014  12:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  12:19 PM
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Can we trade Melo for 3 first round picks and two young player and jut rebuild?

This quote, this post and the emotional NY fans that agree with this quick assessment is why the Knicks are in this mess. With no patients, there's no rebuild. Just jerk reaction moves to keep emotional fans like this happy. As long as the knicks have fans like this, they will continue to be in this mess....Regardless of the management turnover. Lets hope Phil doesn't fall into the same jerk reaction moves as his historical peers. These types of fans are the ones paying the high ticket dollar, which is why they actually run the organization. And why the knicks haven't resembled consistency for over 30 years.

I would argue the opposite. It's the fans who worship guys like Marbury, Amare & Melo salary cap and injury history be damned. Get them here at all costs, money, picks, Noah, aldridge etc. Fill the Garden and Dolans pockets. These people are the reason for the last 15yrs of complete incompetence.
If anything the organization has never shown patience. A lot of fans are just happen to walk in the Garden and to see Marbury, Amare and Melo. They are not really invested on seeing the team win for the first time in 42yrs

Splat
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11/8/2014  12:05 PM
VCoug wrote:
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Can we trade Melo for 3 first round picks and two young player and jut rebuild?

This quote, this post and the emotional NY fans that agree with this quick assessment is why the Knicks are in this mess. With no patients, there's no rebuild. Just jerk reaction moves to keep emotional fans like this happy. As long as the knicks have fans like this, they will continue to be in this mess....Regardless of the management turnover. Lets hope Phil doesn't fall into the same jerk reaction moves as his historical peers. These types of fans are the ones paying the high ticket dollar, which is why they actually run the organization. And why the knicks haven't resembled consistency for over 30 years.

Right, because our history is filled with moves where we trade overvalued assets for draft picks and good players on rookie deals. We haven't spent the last 15 years trading away future picks and guys on rookie deals in order to win right away.

Gotta laugh at posters who have contributed nothing to the conversation calling out posters who take the time to detail their thought process as knee-jerk reactionaries. Its the worst kind of backseat modding while offering nothing of their own intellectually.

How about telling us blkexec what is working so well and how you'd improve it instead?

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Splat
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11/8/2014  12:07 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Can we trade Melo for 3 first round picks and two young player and jut rebuild?

This quote, this post and the emotional NY fans that agree with this quick assessment is why the Knicks are in this mess. With no patients, there's no rebuild. Just jerk reaction moves to keep emotional fans like this happy. As long as the knicks have fans like this, they will continue to be in this mess....Regardless of the management turnover. Lets hope Phil doesn't fall into the same jerk reaction moves as his historical peers. These types of fans are the ones paying the high ticket dollar, which is why they actually run the organization. And why the knicks haven't resembled consistency for over 30 years.

I would argue the opposite. It's the fans who worship guys like Marbury, Amare & Melo salary cap and injury history be damned. Get them here at all costs, money, picks, Noah, aldridge etc. Fill the Garden and Dolans pockets. These people are the reason for the last 15yrs of complete incompetence.
If anything the organization has never shown patience. A lot of fans are just happen to walk in the Gsrden and see Marbury, Amare and Melo. They are not really invested on seeing the team win for the first time in 42yrs

Don't bother trying to reason with cookie cutter loyalists. Blaming critics for the franchise's actions is hilarious. Yeah, we're the reason Dolan does what he does. We rubber stamp stupidity and subsidize it. Not. WTF is this guy talking about? Pure drivel

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
gunsnewing
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11/8/2014  12:16 PM
Splat wrote:
VCoug wrote:
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Can we trade Melo for 3 first round picks and two young player and jut rebuild?

This quote, this post and the emotional NY fans that agree with this quick assessment is why the Knicks are in this mess. With no patients, there's no rebuild. Just jerk reaction moves to keep emotional fans like this happy. As long as the knicks have fans like this, they will continue to be in this mess....Regardless of the management turnover. Lets hope Phil doesn't fall into the same jerk reaction moves as his historical peers. These types of fans are the ones paying the high ticket dollar, which is why they actually run the organization. And why the knicks haven't resembled consistency for over 30 years.

Right, because our history is filled with moves where we trade overvalued assets for draft picks and good players on rookie deals. We haven't spent the last 15 years trading away future picks and guys on rookie deals in order to win right away.

Gotta laugh at posters who have contributed nothing to the conversation calling out posters who take the time to detail their thought process as knee-jerk reactionaries. Its the worst kind of backseat modding while offering nothing of their own intellectually.

How about telling us blkexec what is working so well and how you'd improve it instead?

Been going on for years. You get used to it after a while

RonRon
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11/8/2014  12:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  12:26 PM
The Triangle isn't about 1 player, it is about 5
All 5 players must move and read the opponents DEFENSE together and find the right angles/mismatch, create 2v3, 3v2, and find the open man
We currently do not have the personal to run the system effectively/efficiently, and with Calderon/CA making 30m, nearly half of our cap space to build a team
At the same time, both players are not even average defenders, while we need major upgrades on both DEF and OFF, but have limited ability to improve
Does CA really have a BIG BLACK BOOK, time will tell, but why should a player take less to join the NYK's next summer (especially when we have the highest TAX among all NBA teams)
We currently own the draft rights to our 1st rounder this summer, however, if we do get a TOP draft pick, it will cut in to our ability to spend as the higher draft picks also have much higher salaries that limit our abilities to target other players in the free agency
Although we cannot trade the pick itself, we can trade the draft rights to the player on draft night, or later in the summer, if we do starphuq, we can send the draft rights to the pick and a future 1st rounder like a 2018/2020/2022, and with either players we have like Tim Hardaway JR/Iman Shumpert/Acy or a 2nd rounder in 2018 or 2019


One player isn't going to change us, a PG, especially one that hasn't had the experience and success of the system
If you are talking about one player, it has to be a DOMINANT TOP TIER STAR, certainly not Calderon
A young Shaq, a young Kobe, a young Lebron, next tier would be Noah/Durant etc.....

There is only so much that you can keep replaying the success of Summer League vs Summer League as a measure of what we could do

CA is trying, he is moving the ball, the guys aren't hitting shots, however, when we are not performing, eventually he feels the need to carry the weight and pressure on him because he will get the blame regardless
Winning solves all and we are not in a winning year


Many of us felt that keeping CA at the price he wanted was not going to help our ability to improve in the future and will not solve the the problems we has last season
I don't know how many times Brigg's will flip flop between his opinons on the roster and value of the players

Just on CA alone, trading him for

Kelly Olynicks
Nate Walters
Mike Muscuala

With the way Cleveland is currently struggling, it would not surprise me if Lebron/Kevin Love/Irving and Cleveland makes some major changes themselves
Although CA has a no trade clause, he does realize that his days are numbered along with Lebron before they decline

Would Lebron sign to NYK if Kevin Love decides to sign with another team?
Would we trade CA to Cleveland for some fill ins in salary and multiple draft picks?

Will we consider trading CA our West to

Houston
Sun's

both teams have many players/draft picks to help us do a quick rebuild
Houston would make sense for CA, where he would get paid even more because both Texas and Florida teams do not have STATE tax
They have many unguaranteed contracts and young players with upside in addition to their draft picks/assets

Houston's DEF obviously improved greatly

The only pieces that Morey likely will not part with are

Harden
Dwight Howard
Ariza *who would fit in with CA, but I would like to have back because he is a very good under rated player and had success in The Triangle*

Terence Jones, Beverely, and basically EVERYONE ELSE are expendable, Koustas PAP (our former 2nd round pick) contract is NOT guaranteed and could be a fill in, among with many others like Donte Mont
Jeff Adrien, Isaiah Canaan, Troy Daniels, Tarik Black, Nick Johnson, Ish Smith are all players that are making the vet min
They have all of their own picks and other teams picks

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed


Sun's have Dragic, many young players, role players, and multiple draft picks
I just do not see The Sun's keeping Dragic when they already have Bledsoe on a max contract and a great backup PG in Isiah Thomas, and they still have Tyler Ennis/Arhcie Goodwin as backups
They have 2 very good G/F's in Gereld Green, PJ Tucker, and a developing prospect in TJ Warren and a team option unguaranteed player in Anthony Tolliver as a fill in

As versatile F's and PF/C's they have

Morris brothers
Plumlee
Alex Len


I think Houston makes the most sense for both CA, NYK's, and Houston (who were willing to max Chris Bosh)
Morey will low ball us but in the end, they will pay MAXIMUM value to acquire CA, as they have the players/asset's to do so
They want a BIG 3 of their own, CA gets paid even more and gets a chance to get a ring, and we get maximum value/assets to rebuild/with some young players
I virtually want to rape Morey for all of their picks and 2nd rounders, acquiring back our own 2nd rounders that were sent to him in 2015/2016
Houston owns their own 1st rounders and 2nd rounders which are not listed outside of the 2015 1st rounder to unload Lin
So in addition to all the picks they could send us back for CA, they could send their own 2017 1st rounder, 2019 1st rounder, and some of their 2nd round picks
If he is willing to overpay for CA, I would be glady to get the better of the trade for once since Morey's tenure to raping our GM's in the past

Picks Houston currently owns
===================================

2015 first round draft pick from New Orleans
New Orleans' 1st round pick to Houston protected for selections 1-3 and 20-30 in 2015, 1-3 and 20-30 in 2016, 1-3 and 20-30 in 2017, 1-3 and 20-30 in 2018, 1-3 and 25-30 in 2019 and 1-3 and 25-30 in 2020; if New Orleans has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Houston by 2020, then New Orleans will instead convey its 2020 2nd round pick and 2021 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New Orleans-Washington, 7/15/2014]

2015 second round draft pick from New York
New York's 2015 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

2015 second round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota will convey the less favorable of its 2015 2nd round pick and Denver's 2015 2nd round pick to Houston (via Portland) [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011 then Minnesota-Portland, 6/27/2011 then Houston-Portland, 7/10/2013]

2015 second round draft pick from Sacramento
Sacramento's 2015 2nd round pick to Houston protected for selections 50-60 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Sacramento's obligation to Houston will be extinguished) [Houston-Sacramento, 9/17/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from New York
New York's 2016 2nd round pick to Houston (via Portland to Sacramento then removal of protection from New York) [New York-Portland, 7/15/2012 then New Orleans-Portland-Sacramento, 7/10/2013 then New York-Sacramento, 8/6/2014 then Houston-Sacramento, 9/17/2014]

2017 second round draft pick from Portland
Portland's 2017 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-Portland, 7/10/2013]

Only 1 pick Houston owes, the one they sent to unload Jeremy Lin
========================================================================


2015 first round draft pick to L.A. Lakers
Houston's 1st round pick to the L.A. Lakers protected for selections 1-14 in 2015, 1-10 in 2016, 1-10 in 2017, 1-5 in 2018, 1-5 in 2019 and 1-3 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Houston-L.A. Lakers, 7/13/2014]

Splat
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11/8/2014  12:23 PM
Holy Figs Ron, do you have a trade laboratory in a bunker where you prepare your posts?
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
gunsnewing
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11/8/2014  12:26 PM
lol RonRon is a machine
RonRon
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11/8/2014  12:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  12:36 PM
It makes the most sense for both franchises and CA

Then our next BIG FA plan would be AFTER the lock out in 2017 summer, it would be the most realistic plan to develop our roster and give us time to build a winning culture, while saving cap space to target players till then
This is where we can sign talents like Durant/Noah etc, as well as developing young players, and acquiring talents that are cost efficient

We can continue to add talents only that would be cost efficient and be part of our future past 2017

In the end of every summer, talents such us Dejuan Blaire, Sessions, etc, sign for much less of their value on the court, at about 2m, in addition to vet mins like Edoh/Jeff Adrien
While both Ariza and Lance Stephenson are players that are cost efficient, and are 2 way players, rather than overpaying for Chandler Parsons
So waiting patiently every summer the next couple years would be our best plan, where we get leverage

To keep the fan's and ticket prices high, we can sign back Jeremy Lin who has a strong fan base and give him a reasonable contract like about 5m per year for 4 years till then, with a team option for the last year

Bonn1997
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11/8/2014  12:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  12:41 PM
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:What part does "rebuilding year" does some of you not get?
Building a culture does not include "Panic".
2-1 and Phil says he surprised. Get it now?

Figures that everyone would ignore this post......We are in full rebuild mode. Melo is the only player on this roster that starts for the majority of NBA teams....Some of these guys are 8th or 9th men off the bench (for good teams) while the rest who are getting playing time for us would be collecting DNP's


Full rebuild? Then when are we going to have a real team? Melo's 15th or 17th season? Brilliant
smackeddog
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11/8/2014  12:40 PM
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

You guys need to stop it now! You all knew from the begining that this is a throw away season and we are not going to make the play offs again. The team begins next season. All of you knew that so why complain? This is a bad team. I refuse to get bent out of shape this season. They will win some nice games this season but to win 30 - 35 win will be great, Melo knows this team stinks. He had to be convinced to suck it up this season and wait till next year.

Yep- what I find odd is that the people having a melt down are pretty much the same people who said we would stink this year. We all knew this was the way it was going to be.

smackeddog
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11/8/2014  12:42 PM
Splat wrote:Crap, just realized this is another back-to-back night. Defending the Hawks tonight? drum roll please

On the plus side, the Hawks played last night and it went into 2OT, so hopefully they'll play more lethargically than us!

smackeddog
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11/8/2014  12:43 PM
blkexec wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The knee jerk reactions are unreal. We are 6 games into a season where we were expected to struggle lol.

+1000000000

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Splat
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11/8/2014  12:47 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

You guys need to stop it now! You all knew from the begining that this is a throw away season and we are not going to make the play offs again. The team begins next season. All of you knew that so why complain? This is a bad team. I refuse to get bent out of shape this season. They will win some nice games this season but to win 30 - 35 win will be great, Melo knows this team stinks. He had to be convinced to suck it up this season and wait till next year.

Yep- what I find odd is that the people having a melt down are pretty much the same people who said we would stink this year. We all knew this was the way it was going to be.

LMFAO! Melting down? There were numerous posts in the past few pages that are talking sensibly, debating what has happened, what are the scenarios going forward. The only non-contributory posts thus far are post like this saying Calm Down! Don't Panic! Talk about broken records

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Splat
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11/8/2014  12:49 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Splat wrote:Crap, just realized this is another back-to-back night. Defending the Hawks tonight? drum roll please

On the plus side, the Hawks played last night and it went into 2OT, so hopefully they'll play more lethargically than us!

Probably a real advantage, thus the kinds of games you need to win when you're looking for any advantage you can get. It's not like the team can be worse than last night, so I would not be surprised if they won tonight. But Atlanta can shoot, so we shall see.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
gunsnewing
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11/8/2014  12:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  1:01 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Splat wrote:Crap, just realized this is another back-to-back night. Defending the Hawks tonight? drum roll please

On the plus side, the Hawks played last night and it went into 2OT, so hopefully they'll play more lethargically than us!

No these are the people who picked is to win at least 40 games. I had them at 44-45 wins

But I give you an A for effort

gunsnewing
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11/8/2014  12:57 PM
smackeddog wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The knee jerk reactions are unreal. We are 6 games into a season where we were expected to struggle lol.

+1000000000

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

That's my contribution to this thread. Forget all the other crap I said

Splat
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11/8/2014  12:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2014  12:58 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The knee jerk reactions are unreal. We are 6 games into a season where we were expected to struggle lol.

+1000000000

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

That's my contribution to this thread. Forget all the other crap I said

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Bonn1997
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11/8/2014  1:01 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Splat wrote:Crap, just realized this is another back-to-back night. Defending the Hawks tonight? drum roll please

On the plus side, the Hawks played last night and it went into 2OT, so hopefully they'll play more lethargically than us!

No these are the people who picked is to win at least 40 games. I had them at 44-44 wins

But I give you an A for effort


Is this a subtraction equation?
Team is a fcking disaster

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